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2021-09-04, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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2021-09-04, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Rater, i think youre rather missing the point here. Whether they were humiliated or "just" shamed for their incompetence, they had absolutely no grasp on the Thalmor's strength, numbers, movements or knowledge. They literally failed at every aspect of their job. That means they are very much not an authority on what the Thalmor are doing or what their endgame is.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-09-04, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Losing all of your intelligence operatives in a province and having their heads carted in is gonna sting.
I for one believe that the Blades would have felt humiliated. Doubly so after Cloud Ruler Temple was sacked. And Ocato was killed. And then being officially disbanded after their organization has served the empire for centuries and have to watch their backs because of kill on sight Thalmor orders.
Edit: My bad, forgot that Ocato was assassinated prior to the great war. Still, not a good look for the Blades.Last edited by Lurkmoar; 2021-09-04 at 09:09 AM.
Don't know your name but bring the pain.
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2021-09-04, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Citation:
Originally Posted by Delphine"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2021-09-04, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I mean, you remember what started the Oblivion Crisis, right? The Blades really don't live up to their hype.
Meanwhile all of the Thalmor's successes are intrigue-related: Usurping power in the Summerset Isles, possibly assassinating Ocato, supporting a coup d'état in Valenwood to install a puppet regime, causing/taking credit for solving the Void Nights, driving the Blades out of their territory, crafting the White-Gold concordat to be as damaging to the Empire in the long run as possible and manipulating Ulfric into starting a civil war.
I think it's fair to say that the Thalmor are the best at political sneakiness in all of Tamriel.
Of course, the Blades got nerfed and the Thalmor got vilain grade plot armour in service to the story, but still.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-09-04, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
The bad guy's somehow knowing about the Emporer's secret escape tunnel and the Emporer just letting them kill him when the PC could have easily killed the last of the assailants because he foresaw his own death?
Like, seriously, there is literally no reason for the Emporer to die there other than he himself believing it was pre-ordained... When the previous game established that Prophecy meant jack squat unless you put stock in it and even then doesn't have to be followed to the strict letter.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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2021-09-04, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
The Crimson Dawn putting The Entire Imperial family, meaning the Emperor's three adult sons and any children they moght have to the sword.
And then finding out the secret passage and the Amulet of King's hiding place.
Amulet that was left unsupervised because the grandmaster of the Order left to pray.
Oh and one of the clues every member of the Crimson Dawn is supposed ro find to join, the one that shows the location of their main base is painted right in front of the White-Gold Tower.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-09-04, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I think I remember someone saying on a Tumblr somewhere that they felt Caius Cosades was the best of the Blades, but only because he didn't really bother with spying at all: he just did skooma and maintained a few contacts. He gave you leads and pointed you in the right direction, but he always encouraged you to care more about Morrowind, not the Empire.
What's it say about the Blades that the skooma-addled slacker who didn't even really care that much about the Empire's political interests in the province he was assigned to, was more effective overall than the ones who took their jobs seriously?Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2021-09-04 at 10:13 AM.
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2021-09-04, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
On the Thalmor's home turf, where the Thalmor also have the massive advantage of being the local government and being able to bring all of its resources to bear. Still not inherently an intelligence issue.
Being able to tell that the hurricane is coming and being able to stop it from coming are two different things.
Whose lifetimes? Esbern was born around the time of the Great Collapse of Winterhold (which also probably didn't help), and he's a human as opposed to something longer lived. I will also point out that the Empire as a whole has not really recovered: Black Marsh is still independent, the Dunmer are still refugees, High Rock is IIRC under attack by pirates...
Nitpick: Mythic Dawn.
Edit: Also does it bother anyone else that the symbol for Mehrunes Dagon in ESO is the exact same one as the Mythic Dawn in Oblivion?Last edited by Kareeah_Indaga; 2021-09-04 at 12:33 PM.
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2021-09-04, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I think the one getting the blame/credit depends on whether the plan failed or succeeded. ;)
Random curiosity question about Anise, the hermit witch living in the shack SW of Riverwood: besides trespassing in her basement and stealing from her, what causes her to aggro against you? Seems like in all my play throughs she's friendly the first time I pass her, but on a second passing she will get up and Force Lightning me in the face, even if I've not entered her home. I can't think of anything I do that could trigger her to attack me.
Anyway, I am getting very invested in the Legacy of the Dragonborn mod! I'm running all around collecting artifacts to put on display. Still learning how the display mechanics work. I figured most of it out by trial and error, and it's easy enough to just grab things I didn't want it taking. The paintings look rather neat in the halls. 10/10.
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2021-09-04, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-04, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Yes, yes, it is. These people were there specifically to spy on the Thalmor. Like, for comparison the mass arrest of the Knight Templars all over the kingdom of France on Friday the 13th of October 1307 took an entire month to plan and the fact that it went without any Templar learning of it in advance is considered borderline prodigious (to the point some suggest it as the origin of the "Friday the 13th is unlucky" superstition although, that's probably wrong) and the Templars were not trying to find out what the French government was up to.
When it comes to intelligence, they kind of are the same.
Nitpick: Mythic Dawn.
Edit: Also does it bother anyone else that the symbol for Mehrunes Dagon in ESO is the exact same one as the Mythic Dawn in Oblivion?
I mean yes, but if he were doing this with the approval of his bosses, I'd have expected a couple of their death squads to help him out. He was after all, trying to misuse a magical artifact in the one place in the province most likely to have people with the necessary skill to stop him.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-09-04, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
He was following the Emperor's direct orders. Which were to groom/encourage the PC to mantle the Nerevarine, which inherently meant caring about Morrowind.
I agree, old Caius was a good agent - not least because he actively encouraged you to go out and gain levels before taking his missions, which is something I miss in the later games where everything needs to be done nownowNOW (even though we all know it won't make the slightest difference in reality if it's left for, ooh, twenty levels or so). But I don't think it reflects particularly badly on the rest of the organisation. "Skooma-addled" he may have been, but there's no evidence he was indifferent or slack in carrying out his orders."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2021-09-04, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I think the mistake is believing the Embassy in Skyrim is their "inner sanctum" by any means. Sure, it's where a lot of agents work out of, but they're small fry in the grand scheme. They have no need to know basis for any of the grand strategic plans the Thalmor leadership are planning.
There's no reason for Elenewen, who is likely IN DISGRACE with the Thalmor for some reason (having been assigned to a frozen ****hole she clearly hates the idea of even being in) would know the grand master plan for the Thalmor, much less have incriminating documentation about it.
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2021-09-04, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I mean he had that one guy who tried to stop you after you defeat Morokei to get the Staff of Magnus as well, Estormo. doesn't confirm it one way or another though. though there is the logic that death squads showing up would be too obvious and get you only fireballs with people grouped together....there is also the possibility that it was simply a low priority, high risk mission kind of thing that they sent Ancano going "okay if your right, do so with our blessing but if your wrong, your death won't be a big loss"
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2021-09-04, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2021-09-04, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-09-04, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I mean.... the Dragonborn Prophecy implies that they don't need to for Skyrim at the time you play. the brekaing of Skyrim's tower already happened/accomplished:
"When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding..."
"...the World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn."
Ulfric, the known Thalmor tool/pawn has already murdered High King Torygg. the Last Dragonborn wouldn't be here if he didn't. he has already done his bigger role for the Thalmor, the rest of his unknowing job is just to keep the Nords fighting each other rather than the Thalmor.Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-09-04 at 09:30 PM.
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2021-09-04, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-09-04, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Ugh, the lore here is incredibly depressing.
I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2021-09-04, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
well they need a focusing stone to function.
what a "focusing stone" is can be very flexible, given that one tower is a freaking Brass golem, and another is a tree that was walking around until it decided not to, with its with a perchance acorn being likely candidate.
the Heart of Lorkan served as the focusing stone for both Brass Tower and the Red Mountain at one time or another. so clearly it need not be literal rock.
The White Gold's stone was the Amulet of King's center gem stone.
point is, for all we know the canonical Snow-Throat stone could be something we don't expect. for all we know the Elder Scroll the dwemer put in a light show puzzle so no one would use it to mess with the Snow Throat stone by using to see into the past we screwed up the stone using the scroll, because its ripping the wound in time even more. it could be the Dragonstone we got for that wizard guy in Whiterun at the beginning and because its moved from its crypt it no longer works. it could be the Eye of Magnus and the psijics did an oops by teleporting it away. would certainly help explain all the warning surrounding it. the Snow Throat's stone might've even been Alduin himself given his divine power and his role, towers can be mobile and ending one cycle so another can begin is technically helping to uphold a part of the world.
lots of possibilities here.
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2021-09-05, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
I agree...when Morrowind and Oblivion ended, the general vibe I got was "The future's uncertain, but we prevented the worst from happening and that gives us hope."
The lore updates that led to Skyrim pull the rug out from under that like "Haha, NOPE! EVERYTHING GOT WORSE!" The whole thing with Red Mountain exploding and Morrowind getting devastated is a real punch to the gut because of how the game makes you CARE about Morrowind so much. And part of the reason the Dark Brotherhood's conclusion being canon is so concerning to me is because I'd hoped after Oblivion's events there'd be some degree of resilience in the Empire that it'd manage without the Septims just fine, but shortly after that the Thalmor come on the scene and hit the Empire so hard it's on life-support, and if the loss of the Septim Emperors broke the Empire that hard, I imagine the loss of the Mede Emperors would practically be a death-blow.
Morrowind and Oblivion made me feel like I was making things better, Skyrim makes me feel like I'm just delaying the inevitable.Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2021-09-05 at 10:28 AM.
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2021-09-05, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
It does have to be said that the outcome of Morrowind not being so great is actually pretty reasonable if you think about it. That giant hunk of rock above Vivec City is explicitly being held up there by the power of the Tribunal, and we know that power is derived from the Heart of Lorkhan, which is just as explicitly destroyed at the end of Morrowind. So, at some point that rock is going to fall, so at the very least Vivec City is doomed with all its people. That it led to Red Mountain erupting and devastating the rest of Vvardenfell is maybe a bit more of a reach, but still within the bounds of reasonableness.
As for Oblivion, can't judge that, never completed it.
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2021-09-05, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-05, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
... why wouldn't they? My history professor always used to say "as a rule of thumb, people tend to believe in their religion" when somebody in class tried to argue that nobody could believe something, despite going to war over it or other quite extreme stuff. It's far more ridicolous to think that entire countries shared into some form of national lie in which nobody believed in a widespread belief but pretended to for some reason. Sure, some people use others' beliefs to their own end without really sharing in those beliefs or manipulate those beliefs to their benefits but actually share in said beliefs, but I don't see why Nords, on average, wouldn't believe Sovngarde to be a thing. There being an afterlife for those of your people that died valiantly is not a particularly egregious belief to hold.
Plus, we're talking about a world where magic is undeniably real, and you walk alongside elves and argonians on a daily basis. Why would "dragons" seem ridicolous superstition?
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2021-09-05, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-09-05 at 03:40 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-09-05, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
You can walk down any street in Tamriel and see an elf, Argonian, and/or magic. It's a little harder to believe in dragons or Sovngarde when no one* in living memory has actually seen either of them.
*I don't count the Greybeards here since they keep their dragon a secret.The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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2021-09-05, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
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2021-09-05, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-09-05, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion
The disturbing part of that is how you're explicitly called "Last". Implying that there can't be any more, ever. If the world needs saving again, it won't be a dragonborn hero that does the job.
Depressing theory/prediction: Paarthunax is the stone, and the canonical ending of Skyrim will turn out to be one where TLD killed him.
Vivec, who is the one who stopped the moon's fall in the first place, is still powerful in his own right. I had hoped he could have lowered the moon gently to drop it harmlessly in the sea."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain