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2021-10-13, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-13, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 03:57 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-10-13, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-10-13 at 04:13 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2021-10-13, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
I still think there's a clear difference between "trusting Tarquin to be self-aware about his ego" and "trusting Hilgya and Loki to understand the dwarves' planar cosmology" - but I understand Peelee and I won't see eye to eye on that.
Well, yes and no - no risk of a Snarl between the two of them perhaps, but I imagine Odin's Rules are there to govern intra-pantheon conflicts, and those breaking down might cause other deities to get involved all over again.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-10-13, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 05:45 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-10-13, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Being untrustworthy doesn't mean being uncapable of telling the truth.
Hylgia doesn't need a justification to be the way she is, she is a cleric of Loki. She could do just as she wants without inventing that Loki's loophole, and then when she is old enough fight to the death vs anyone, who cares? Why go with that complicated lie if she doesn't benefit of it? She used a complicated plan to steal gold from her family, that is a benefit. But Loki's thing? Where is her benefit there?
Untrustworthy people lie when they gain something with it. Hylgia's lie only affects one victim... Hylgia.Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-13 at 06:05 PM.
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2021-10-13, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
The relevant charge against Hylgia isn't about deceiving others, it's about her misreading things and running way too far with the misinterpretation.
Well, I think some are going further and accusing her of being prone to forming self-satisfying delusions, but I don't expect we have evidence to persuasively argue that.Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 06:23 PM.
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2021-10-13, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-13, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
I agree, but it also means that their credibility is shot even when they do tell the truth, because everything they say is suspect.
... Yes, I have been saying that constantly - its exactly what I mean by "self-serving". Hilgya does stand to gain by lying to herself. Specifically, she thinks stands to gain the freedom to do whatever she wants without worrying about Hel. The fact that she's fooling herself and is thus also the victim has no bearing on this.
Yet again, if you want to convince me, it's not going to work. Only the author can, as I've already described. If you want to keep going in circles where nothing you say invalidates my belief that she's wrong, we certainly can, but it seems like you have an expectation that you can find some way to convince me that her wholly unsupported notion that benefits her in the highly specific way that she needs to not be damned is objectively wrong. You cannot. Again, we read the same comic. I haven't missed anything. We just reached two different conclusions. I cannot convince you any more than you can convince me.Last edited by Peelee; 2021-10-13 at 07:49 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-10-13, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-10-13, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
I'm sure people have made this point, but there's no indicator she used those things, and we know from Durkon's relative lack of Knowledge (Religion) that we can't assume a higher-level cleric actually is all that knowledgeable. We do have direct evidence Hilgya lies to herself to create self-serving narratives to justify her feelings and justify doing what she wants to do.
Once again I agree with you and I think you've already said everything else I would say.
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2021-10-13, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by pyrefiend; 2021-10-13 at 09:33 PM.
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2021-10-13, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
But it's not wholly unsupported. We have evidence in favor including
- She is a high level cleric of Loki, which has a causal relation to knowledge of Loki's teachings
- We have circumstantial evidence Loki can claim Dwarven souls
- We know Loki has approved of Hilgya's adherence to his teachings
It's not a slam dunk case for sure. It's all just circumstantial -- but for that matter so is everything you cite -- to the hypothesis Hilgya knows how Dwarven worshippers of Loki can avoid Hel. So there is plenty of room for the facts to be consistent with the hypothesis Hilgya being completely wrong.
But it's definitely not completely unsupported. We have, IIRC, absolutely no direct evidence, so weighing the circumstantial evidence is all we can do. And if you're not putting the evidence for one side on the scales, well, I suppose it would naturally tilt to the other side.
I presume you're just overexaggerating when you say "wholly unsupported", but it's not obvious to me that's the case.Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-13 at 10:23 PM.
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2021-10-13, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
To put the sabaton on the other foot, we've seen her lie to herself about dwarven men/families/relationships, but you're making just as much of a leap assuming that applies to setting metaphysics and her eternal soul. And as noted, there are actually mechanics for the latter, so I have plenty of reason to treat them differently.
I'll also second Vikenlugaid's point:
^ If none of it is true, she can just do the old dwarven staple of picking a fight with a tree when she's old and grey and flip Hel off that way.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-10-13, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Because it's not a debate? I've openly said, several times, I do not expect to convince others of my view and they cannot convince me of their view. If people want to explore my reasoning then I'm perfectly happy to lay it out and point out why I'm unconvinced by theirs.
For the first, Durkon is a high level Cleric of Thor and yet believes that Thor hates trees. As do virtually all dwarves, apparently. So being a high level Cleric means nothing in this situation.
For the second, of course he can, if they die with honor, which includes in battle, which we know is pretty baked into Dwarven society to bit shy away from. This also means nothing.
Third,if my kid says "all I have to do is clean my room every day and I get to go to Disneyland!", then I can still express approval of the clean room and work ethic every day despite never having said anything about going to Disneyland for it. This, too, means nothing.
Those aren't even circumstantial. All three do not have any actual relevance. The first is the closest, but we've seen that characters, even high level clerics, even an entire race, can be completely wrong about supposed divine mandates. Now, when an entire race believes it, like the trees thing, it might have enough belief power to cut some semblance of mustard. But when it's just a single person? I wouldn't put money on that horse.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-10-13, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-10-13, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-13, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-10-13, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
I think the "die in any fight = honor!" conclusion is a bit too simplistic. If a dwarf is trying to slaughter an orphanage and then ultimately gets taken down by the guards while they're charging at fleeing children - or worse, one of the children grabs a kitchen knife to defend themself and gets really lucky - yeah, they've died in battle, but they were behaving pretty dishonorably up until that moment. Maybe the line isn't drawn at trees or alcohol poisoning, but I think there is indeed a line.
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2021-10-13, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
The line is probably whatever the god who would have to come down and argue on their behalf thinks it is.
Also, bit of a tangent, but since clerics of Thor get a free drink for getting killed by clerics of Loki, I wonder if the same is true vice versa or if Loki just laughs and calls you a loser if one of Thor's clerics mercs you.
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2021-10-14, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-14, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-14, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Honestly I think the "is she right/wrong" may be rooted in more "do you like Hilgya" than most people want to admit.
I like her as a character so I'm biased towards her being right, but honestly there's enough ambiguity that it could go either way and I'm just going to just forget about it unless it actually comes up.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-10-14, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Or for variety, I have no strong feelings towards Hilgya and she's speaking on a topic I don't care too much about, leaving me mostly ambivalent.
I suspect my leanings are mostly due to the story context of Thor and Loki having tricked Hel. So having Hilgya elaborate in that context sounds like the story fleshing things out more.
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2021-10-14, 02:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think that's a leap. She comes up with self-serving delusions about the men in her life; so she does the same with metaphysics and her eternal soul. (She would hardly be the first in that regard, I'm sure.) I find it much more plausible that someone operates from a consistent set of motives toward all areas of their life (and afterlife) than that they compartmentalize entirely different sets of motives in different aspects.
(And I think "she must know somehow as a high level cleric in a self-aware setting" is assuming facts not in evidence.)
Aside, I don't think Ivan and Durkon are as small stakes for Hilgya as you make them out to be, given how strongly she prizes absolute freedom in her value system, what each of them did to compromise that, and also that she killed one of them and tried to kill the other.
Now, all this isn't to say that Hilgya's theory is flatly untrue. I don't think we can conclude either way from the evidence at hand. I'm just saying her word alone isn't reliable on the subject, because the story she's telling exactly fits a self-serving justification to do whatever she wants, something we've already seen her do in other aspects of her life.Last edited by Ruck; 2021-10-14 at 02:54 AM.
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2021-10-14, 02:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-14, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Well, I'm not Peelee, but I have some thoughts about this. One is, generally, sometimes laying out our thoughts helps reinforce or solidify them if their arguments are sound, or find the faults in them if they're not, whether or not we expect that to convince anyone else.
The other is, specifically to this discussion, it seems that we have arrived at the irreducible conflict: You either believe that Hilgya's history of coming up with self-serving justifications to do whatever she wants is sufficient to cast doubt on her credibility as it relates to the loophole she's found, or you don't. The evidence of said history has been presented; why that evidence fits with her claim about the loophole has been discussed. It's really a matter of how you weigh it, and I, at least, feel like trying to convince someone they "ought" to care about something more than they do is generally more futile and less fruitful than presenting my evidence and reasoning.
(As I've said, I do think we can't rely on her claim. There is evidence she makes up self-serving delusions to justify doing what she wants to do. There is not evidence that even high-level clerics are ipso facto experts on all of their gods' teachings or the afterlife; there is indeed evidence to the contrary. That's certainly enough for reasonable doubt in my book.)
Also, a couple of posts I missed the first time around:
I think the general disrespect his team members show him (not constant, but enough that it's certainly there) doesn't fit someone they consider a leader. The favor system also suggests a standing of equals, whereas a leader, I'd think, would generally be someone whose judgment the other team members trusted.
I was strongly skeptical Hilgya would return-- really, more than I should've been in hindsight, just as a general rule-- but that was in part because I didn't like that the most common case made was that she would want revenge on Durkon for spurning her advances, which I thought would've been hacky and even sexist. Instead, that she's the mother of Durkon's child is a much better reason for her to come back-- it gives her an important ongoing concern with Durkon-- and thus makes her return to the story more meaningful for Durkon, especially since he never knew his own father. (Even if the revenge part was still accurate.)Last edited by Ruck; 2021-10-14 at 04:16 AM.
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2021-10-14, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Because he ISN'T the leader now, he WAS the leader of the Vector Legion when they were adventurers. Now they are just coworkers and old friends, and the way they behave fits perfectly with that. And, anyway, they are all evil persons, and for evil persons I think they show him too little disrespect.
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2021-10-14, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Was he?
Now they are just coworkers and old friends, and the way they behave fits perfectly with that. And, anyway, they are all evil persons, and for evil persons I think they show him too little disrespect.Forum Wisdom
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2021-10-14, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe? The best evidence we have is that he came up with the shadow-empire scheme, but that's not really a whole lot.
That's not unfair, but I'd be more apt to buy it if the level of disrespect was just at cracking jokes at his expense. Old friends still have a baseline of respect for one another, and there seemed to be quite a bit of genuine annoyance and frustration with Tarquin from, at various points, Malack, Miron, and Laurin.
This did make me laugh out loud.