Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Traab]

We just saw him discussing his vehemic energy budget with Maxima. The way to take him out is minimal violence maximum damage - which makes me think of injecting him with something highly toxic. The way to attack Vehemence is not a .50 caliber rifle but a dart gun. There are unfortunately plenty of substances that injecting 500 milligrams of them means death, even given Kevin's massive size (I guess he weighs close to 200 kg). We don't know about super's tolerance for poisons, but we have no reason to believe he's immune to cyanide or plutonium.

Yeah, assassinating him like that would likely be the most efficient method of doing so. And even if a single shot wouldnt do it, well, im sure they can shoot him several times with 500 mg of ricin or polonium per shot and he will drop dead from that in short order. I just mentioned the 50 cal because a sniper is far more likely to be able to nail him than a dart gun considering the range differences. There is a lot less warning of an incoming attack from a half mile away. For all we know he can sense sources of violence approaching. Kind of like how succubi can tell when there is something sexy happening nearby.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, assassinating him like that would likely be the most efficient method of doing so. And even if a single shot wouldnt do it, well, im sure they can shoot him several times with 500 mg of ricin or polonium per shot and he will drop dead from that in short order. I just mentioned the 50 cal because a sniper is far more likely to be able to nail him than a dart gun considering the range differences. There is a lot less warning of an incoming attack from a half mile away. For all we know he can sense sources of violence approaching. Kind of like how succubi can tell when there is something sexy happening nearby.

I mean if you are talking about assassination, it'd be better to skip the bullet and just go straight to poisoning his dinner or something.

[Shining Wrath]

I was still in "first strike Vehemence" discussion mode when I suggested poison. If he's fighting and powered up, getting close enough to use a dart gun might be problematic.
Unless it's Max, in which case she just super-speeds up and injects him with a needle the size of a turkey baster. It's not like he can dodge her doing 4000 miles an hour.

[lord_khaine]

We just saw him discussing his vehemic energy budget with Maxima. The way to take him out is minimal violence maximum damage

That bit was SO dumb. One of the few places im going to call the author a moron. The moves Max pulled off were exceptionally violent.
I mean. Whats most violent? Just decking someone in the face? Or maiming their wrist? I certainly think every court in the world would agree on what gave the longest prison time.

We don't know about super's tolerance for poisons, but we have no reason to believe he's immune to cyanide or plutonium.

We do. He is able to regenerate damage to his system up to and including regrowing damaged nerves.
No reason to think that ability is limited to massive damage.

I was still in "first strike Vehemence" discussion mode when I suggested poison. If he's fighting and powered up, getting close enough to use a dart gun might be problematic.
Unless it's Max, in which case she just super-speeds up and injects him with a needle the size of a turkey baster. It's not like he can dodge her doing 4000 miles an hour.

Not going to be needed when Max is more powerful than Vehemence.
And not going to work when he is her equal. Because then he can in fact dodge her attacks.
(and the needle would break on contact anyway. He took a freaking anti-tank bullet to the EYE and broke the bullet).

[InvisibleBison]

That bit was SO dumb. One of the few places im going to call the author a moron. The moves Max pulled off were exceptionally violent.
I mean. Whats most violent? Just decking someone in the face? Or maiming their wrist? I certainly think every court in the world would agree on what gave the longest prison time.

Unless you have some sort of device capable of measuring vehemic energy, I think I'll trust the author's opinion about how much of the stuff various sorts of attacks produce over yours.

[TeChameleon]

It seems to me that vehemic energy is generated in part by how much effort the perpetrator of violence is putting out; the less effort put forth, the less energy is produced, even if the result of the effort is more violent, if that makes sense.

[lord_khaine]

Unless you have some sort of device capable of measuring vehemic energy, I think I'll trust the author's opinion about how much of the stuff various sorts of attacks produce over yours.

Your right. Violence is something we need some sort of specific device to measure the intensity off..

It seems to me that vehemic energy is generated in part by how much effort the perpetrator of violence is putting out; the less effort put forth, the less energy is produced, even if the result of the effort is more violent, if that makes sense.

That would perhaps be a more sensible explanation.
Of course it does not really follow what we saw in the comic. The moves Max pulled off is extremely high effort moves. If you dont believe me then try them yourself

No. So far the most obvious explanation seems to be the Authors pet Mary Sue needed a way to fight Vehemence.

[Shining Wrath]

Regrowing a limb is not the same as dealing with every part of your nervous system being attacked by a poison. And again, the poison is being administered while he's at power level zero. So far as we know he can't regenerate a hangnail with no source of vehemic energy.
Maxima is supposed to be the most powerful super. If that's Mary Sue, than so is arguing that Vehemence can beat her. Each has the power the author says they have.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Your right. Violence is something we need some sort of specific device to measure the intensity off..



That would perhaps be a more sensible explanation.
Of course it does not really follow what we saw in the comic. The moves Max pulled off is extremely high effort moves. If you dont believe me then try them yourself

No. So far the most obvious explanation seems to be the Authors pet Mary Sue needed a way to fight Vehemence.

Using leverage to maximize damage is not the same as just doing damage directly. Like if you were to tip a concrete pillar and let it topple over and break into pieces, that's hardly violent at all compared to if you just supplied the necessary force to break it into pieces with a punch.

Violence, in its purest form, is changing your surroundings through force. It scales both with the magnitude of changes achieved, and with the magnitude of force applied. You get more violence done with a kick if you kick a rock that starts an avalanche, and you get more out of destroying a house by using explosives than by carefully taking it down with controlled effort.

Pain is just the body's way to signal damage, it doesn't reflect actual damage. So by applying a controlled effort to deal a little damage that creates a lot of pain, Maxima can effectively fight Vehemence since it's not actually very violent, but still highly effective.

[Max_Killjoy]

That bit was SO dumb. One of the few places im going to call the author a moron. The moves Max pulled off were exceptionally violent.
I mean. Whats most violent? Just decking someone in the face? Or maiming their wrist? I certainly think every court in the world would agree on what gave the longest prison time.

Trying to define "more violent" with those sorts of distinctions might be a rabbit hole.

[The Glyphstone]

Poor Dexxon. Being the administrative assistant/middle management to a flaky boss is Hell beyond any a demon can conceive.

[Kantaki]

I kinda want to see that slide show now.
Must have some really convincing arguments if they're using it as a opener for their invasions.

[tyckspoon]

It seems to me that vehemic energy is generated in part by how much effort the perpetrator of violence is putting out; the less effort put forth, the less energy is produced, even if the result of the effort is more violent, if that makes sense.

My theory is that 'violence', at least for Kevin's purposes, is at least in part defined by the intent and emotions of the action. Things that are done simply for the thrill of attacking or hurting something are far more violent than things done with detachment and for a specific goal. So Maxima's probing attacks, performed with a goal of inquiry, are much more damaging.. but also less violent than sparring with people like Math, Jabberwocky, and Detla, who just enjoy fighting for its own sake. (As circumstantial evidence, Kevin's complaint about it wasn't the damage or really the pain - it was that it was 'taking the fun out of it.') Similarly, during Vehemence's introductory brawl, things like Peggy initially sniping his eye or Maxima removing an arm, while inherently violent, would provide less vehemic power, because they are done with the specific goal of removing the target.. but the sequence prior to that, where Maxima let go of herself and was trying to smush him under a concrete beam? Incredibly violent, despite being ineffective, because she was doing it largely to show off that she could.

[Shining Wrath]

This is not a hard Sci-Fi strip and consequently the rules for most things are "What makes the story work". That seems to be the case with V and his energy flows; I'd think that 5 minutes of sparring with Maxima would put him into the "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds" level of power, but evidently not.

I don't think Dave is going to completely ignore internal consistency and logic; I just don't think he's going to have a programmable calculator by his desk set up to calculate V's energy gain from each panel.

[Radar]

My theory is that 'violence', at least for Kevin's purposes, is at least in part defined by the intent and emotions of the action. Things that are done simply for the thrill of attacking or hurting something are far more violent than things done with detachment and for a specific goal. So Maxima's probing attacks, performed with a goal of inquiry, are much more damaging.. but also less violent than sparring with people like Math, Jabberwocky, and Detla, who just enjoy fighting for its own sake. (As circumstantial evidence, Kevin's complaint about it wasn't the damage or really the pain - it was that it was 'taking the fun out of it.') Similarly, during Vehemence's introductory brawl, things like Peggy initially sniping his eye or Maxima removing an arm, while inherently violent, would provide less vehemic power, because they are done with the specific goal of removing the target.. but the sequence prior to that, where Maxima let go of herself and was trying to smush him under a concrete beam? Incredibly violent, despite being ineffective, because she was doing it largely to show off that she could.

It is also of note, what kind of behaviour did Vehemence's aure promote: lots of punch-trading but with surprisingly few serious injuries. Since an ineffective brawl gave him a lot of vehemic energy, we can conclude that the damage done is not much of a factor - just a byproduct of the force used and the intent behind it. So minimal effort, maximal damage approach does make sense.

What is the most important thing to state here, is that within the comics world there has to be an objective correlation between specific actions and generation (or release?) of vehemic energy. We cannot exactly apply our subjective ideas on what is more or less violent - we have no way to quantify that.

[Traab]

My theory is that 'violence', at least for Kevin's purposes, is at least in part defined by the intent and emotions of the action. Things that are done simply for the thrill of attacking or hurting something are far more violent than things done with detachment and for a specific goal. So Maxima's probing attacks, performed with a goal of inquiry, are much more damaging.. but also less violent than sparring with people like Math, Jabberwocky, and Detla, who just enjoy fighting for its own sake. (As circumstantial evidence, Kevin's complaint about it wasn't the damage or really the pain - it was that it was 'taking the fun out of it.') Similarly, during Vehemence's introductory brawl, things like Peggy initially sniping his eye or Maxima removing an arm, while inherently violent, would provide less vehemic power, because they are done with the specific goal of removing the target.. but the sequence prior to that, where Maxima let go of herself and was trying to smush him under a concrete beam? Incredibly violent, despite being ineffective, because she was doing it largely to show off that she could.

Mine is more about the force behind an action. The difference between cracking a skull with a hammer and piercing it with the claw. Both require the same amount of psi to happen, but one requires a lot less force because the surface area of the attack is so much smaller. The hammer head attack would produce more vehemic energy because more force was behind it. (assuming in both cases just enough force to create the effect was used) Thats why her joint and pressure point attacks produced so much damage for so little energy. She used less force to create the effect so he gained less from the action. And thats what he meant by taking all the fun out of it. He wasnt making a profit in vehemic energy because she wasnt using excessive force to create the effect she was after. Or at best it was a small enough profit to not be worth the pain he was feeling. Hard to say really.

Either way though, i at least feel its good enough for fridge logic and not really worth picking apart for any logical flaws in the stance you might think are there. It could be the emotion behind it or the force behind it, I honestly dont think its that important either way so long as the end result is the same.

[Shining Wrath]

I wonder how much the emotion / intent matters versus the amount of energy expended. Could Vehemence charge up by putting starving rats in a cage and watching them fight? Would the energy received depend on the size of the rats, e.g., would Fire Swamp R.O.U.S. fighting to the death give him more power than standard black rats (rattus rattus)? How much depends on mind, and how much on muscle?

Or does his power require violence between sentient creatures?

[Traab]

I wonder how much the emotion / intent matters versus the amount of energy expended. Could Vehemence charge up by putting starving rats in a cage and watching them fight? Would the energy received depend on the size of the rats, e.g., would Fire Swamp R.O.U.S. fighting to the death give him more power than standard black rats (rattus rattus)? How much depends on mind, and how much on muscle?

Or does his power require violence between sentient creatures?

We know he needs ever escalating violence to get stronger. Its the whole reason he setup the whole super brawl, because that level of violence would push him further than ever before. (At least he said something along those lines) So while emotion may be a part of it, he needs ever escalating levels of violence as well. So a angry dude with a sling shot can take him to x level. Give that same angry dude a .22 and it goes up, a 12 gauge, goes up, a grenade launcher, goes up, etc etc etc. Eventually, no matter how violent and rage filled the guy is, the slingshot just stops granting him a higher flow of energy. I theorize he could survive off the angry dude with a slingshot, he just couldnt really do anything with that energy but feed on it. No real boost to his stats or special abilities he can unlock. But it would keep him from starving. MAYBE over time he could stockpile enough to eventually do a single impressive thing but it would drain his tank because he is only getting a trickle of energy and he just drained it with a fire hose. As for violent rats? No clue. Heh, picturing it working with animals now im imagining him standing over those termite/ant mounds that go to war with each other laughing hysterically as his powers swell.

[Forum Explorer]

I wonder how much the emotion / intent matters versus the amount of energy expended. Could Vehemence charge up by putting starving rats in a cage and watching them fight? Would the energy received depend on the size of the rats, e.g., would Fire Swamp R.O.U.S. fighting to the death give him more power than standard black rats (rattus rattus)? How much depends on mind, and how much on muscle?

Or does his power require violence between sentient creatures?

I imagine it needs to be human, or at least intelligent life he gets energy from. Or else Succubi could charge up by animals as well, and I feel like that would've been mentioned when talking about/to one of the many succubi in the story so far.

[Shining Wrath]

Look, the slide show explains all of this

The number of times I've said something close to that ... READ THE DOCUMENTATION PEOPLE.

[Traab]

Soooo this whole thing here, doesnt this fall under the umbrella of the twilight council? I mean, they have devil representation in the form of decollete right? This seems the sort of thing they would frown on. or is this a demons versus devils thing where big man here isnt a faction on the council and is thus not bound by their rules? They still likely would object... strenuously, to the earth being taken over by the forces of hell.

[TeChameleon]

It's... open to question... as to exactly how involved the Grrlverse 'demons' are related to Hell, exactly. Dabbler's explanation to... whatever the tweenage succubus' name was... implies (at least to me) that there's more 'alien' than 'demon' involved in the 'alien demon' bit on Dabbler's Resident Alien paperwork. I'm fairly certain there haven't been any hints as to an afterlife of any sort, so the demonic aliens Xuriel and Tom share a species (or... something?) with don't seem to be in the employ of Hell as it's traditionally understood.

That being said, I doubt that the Twilight Council would be all that happy about Tom taking over, demonic or otherwise. It remains to be seen exactly how much say they have in the matter, though.

[Mechalich]

The Council also seems to be more of an internally-directed organization. They manage entities, including some aliens, who live on Earth already, rather like a combination law enforcement/humanitarian aid/labor union. They don't handle external issues. This is largely because, prior to recent events involving the Alari and Fel, Earth was protected by the pseudo-Prime Directive that FTL civs in this universe seem to have. We have seen that Archon has taken the lead in managing alien arrivals since the doors opened up as it were, with regard to the whole New York mess.

Earth in this universe does not have any sort of united planetary border control agency or planetary defense force. It doesn't even have the sort of unified government capable of producing such an agency, which is sort of the broader point Tom is making. A planet of ~190 sovereign states simply isn't equipped to enter into any sort of functional relationship with the galactic powers that be, and to Tom's conquest-directed mind the only possible response is for Earth to join one of the existing factions poste haste. He, for a variety of reasons ranging from the logical to the libidinous, would very much like said faction to be his Order Deus or whatever it's called.

This is further complicated in that Earth's ability to play with the post-FTL big boys is dependent entirely on personal power not institutional power. The actual governments of Earth are largely helpless, the planet's ability to defend itself is measured according to the capabilities of a double-handful of high-level supers/other weirdness (ie. whatever Vale is), who are most certainly not all united in their goals. This is a pretty standard supers-setting problem, the DC universe has it in spades.

[Shining Wrath]

Enter Deus, stage left, with a proposal for selected Supers to help him establish a one-world government in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ....

[lord_khaine]

That being said, I doubt that the Twilight Council would be all that happy about Tom taking over, demonic or otherwise. It remains to be seen exactly how much say they have in the matter, though.

Well.. the Twilight Council had problems with a single unsupported Alien operative.
It simply dont have anything to do against a planetary invasion force.

This is further complicated in that Earth's ability to play with the post-FTL big boys is dependent entirely on personal power not institutional power. The actual governments of Earth are largely helpless, the planet's ability to defend itself is measured according to the capabilities of a double-handful of high-level supers/other weirdness (ie. whatever Vale is), who are most certainly not all united in their goals. This is a pretty standard supers-setting problem, the DC universe has it in spades.

I would disagree Earth has any actual ability to deal with a major post-FTL civilisation.
Max took down a Fell cruiser, and thats seriously impressive. Like a bunch of spear-waving tribals taking down a patrol boat.
But it was with the element of surprise. And she is just about the only person on Earth that can be expected to pull something like this off.

As such i would expect Earths biggest defence to be either the Xenovarchy (or whatever their name were), or the major galactic partners all agreeing they would prefer if none of their rivals took over the crazy planet and started breeding super shock troops.

[Traab]

Well.. the Twilight Council had problems with a single unsupported Alien operative.
It simply dont have anything to do against a planetary invasion force.



I would disagree Earth has any actual ability to deal with a major post-FTL civilisation.
Max took down a Fell cruiser, and thats seriously impressive. Like a bunch of spear-waving tribals taking down a patrol boat.
But it was with the element of surprise. And she is just about the only person on Earth that can be expected to pull something like this off.

As such i would expect Earths biggest defence to be either the Xenovarchy (or whatever their name were), or the major galactic partners all agreeing they would prefer if none of their rivals took over the crazy planet and started breeding super shock troops.

A terrorist attack done by total surprise is very different from dealing with an army invasion. Plus, remember that aliens also have a membership on the council alongside demons so its entirely likely they already have backroom dealings with the wider universe and so would not only have things to say about an invasion, but also methods of responding beyond "REALEASE THE SMACKEN!"

[Shining Wrath]

We don't know how many troops the FTL civilizations could actually transport to Earth and keep supplied. The old saw is that Lieutenants talk tactics, Majors talk strategy, and Generals talk logistics. They might be able to find food on Earth (perhaps including Earthlings) but not find, e.g., power cells for their ray guns. Also I got the impression the Fel are pretty much top of the line for alien troops; not everyone is as dangerous. Given that we've got some large well-equipped armies, we might be more akin to the Zulu versus the British, except London is 250 light years away.

[Dragonus45]

We don't know how many troops the FTL civilizations could actually transport to Earth and keep supplied. The old saw is that Lieutenants talk tactics, Majors talk strategy, and Generals talk logistics. They might be able to find food on Earth (perhaps including Earthlings) but not find, e.g., power cells for their ray guns. Also I got the impression the Fel are pretty much top of the line for alien troops; not everyone is as dangerous. Given that we've got some large well-equipped armies, we might be more akin to the Zulu versus the British, except London is 250 light years away.

The Fel came across as more ravenous horde with strong buffs then elite warrior. Highly corruptive and individually strong but not doing a lot of large scale strategic thinking beyond ATTACK. A certain line from Hellsing Ultimate Abridged about "dip****s running **** first into enemy territory" comes to mind. I imagine that even if they might not be as individually strong an actual space army with intelligent leadership would manage much much better. Also never forget the great power that comes from being able to drop rocks from orbit where oh so very few people could ever interfere.

[Max_Killjoy]

Earth's defense is deterrence.

If you invade or bombard Earth, you'd better hope you get all the super beings who'd want revenge.

Some of these supers could do a remarkable amount of damage to retaliation, out of nowhere, to the worlds that launched an attack.

[Forum Explorer]

Earth's defense is deterrence.

If you invade or bombard Earth, you'd better hope you get all the super beings who'd want revenge.

Some of these supers could do a remarkable amount of damage to retaliation, out of nowhere, to the worlds that launched an attack.

If they can find out who did it, if they can find out where those people live, if they can get there in the first place.

Oh, and of course, if they can survive the attack in the first place.



But really, they don't even need to go that far. Do something much more minor like releasing an AI to collapse Earth's internet infrastructure, or a global EMP and knock humanity back a hundred years or so. The chaos would cripple humanity for generations and the Supers would likely be too busy picking up the pieces for to seek revenge.