Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[b_jonas]

until there is new evidence

The Giant clearly doesn't want to give new evidence to us. Blackwing is separated from the Order, because if he was here and Sunny got through his spell resistance, that would clearly show that Vaarsuvius's XL is low.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, Sunny's eye rays are technically (Su) even though they replicate spells, so SR doesn't apply anyways. Also lucky rolls are a thing.

[Carl]

Uh, Sunny's eye rays are technically (Su) even though they replicate spells, so SR doesn't apply anyways. Also lucky rolls are a thing.

"smothing somthing somthing as a copper piece harlot"

[danielxcutter]

Actually, Blackwing only has SR equal to V's level +5 I think, which is really low. Even if the rays weren't (Su) Sunny'd still easily make the check most of the time.

[Ortho]

Y'know, I think that there's some truth in that we've put up some very arbitrary stats up in the first post. It might be worth it to go over the stat blocks and trim the fat.
Just going over Roy's skills, I think we can strike at least 5 from his statblock because they just do not hold up to scrutiny:

Heal (comic). A Heal check isn't required to identify poison.
Knowledge: Geography (comic). Using navigational tools is different from having knowledge about lands, terrain, climate, and/or people of a particular region.
Knowledge: Planes, (comic). Considering that Roy was dead 5 strips before, I'm going to say that this isn't so much a skill rank as it is firsthand experience.
Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF 810a). No evidence that playing sports requires a Profession skill.
Profession: Goatherd (comic). No evidence that two semesters translates to a rank in a Profession skill.

[Peelee]

Y'know, I think that there's some truth in that we've put up some very arbitrary stats up in the first post. It might be worth it to go over the stat blocks and trim the fat.
Just going over Roy's skills, I think we can strike at least 5 from his statblock because they just do not hold up to scrutiny:

Heal (comic). A Heal check isn't required to identify poison.
Knowledge: Geography (comic). Using navigational tools is different from having knowledge about lands, terrain, climate, and/or people of a particular region.
Knowledge: Planes, (comic). Considering that Roy was dead 5 strips before, I'm going to say that this isn't so much a skill rank as it is firsthand experience.
Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF 810a). No evidence that playing sports requires a Profession skill.
Profession: Goatherd (comic). No evidence that two semesters translates to a rank in a Profession skill.

I'm with you for almost all of those except knowledge: Geography. An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge. The ability to use a sextant is not common knowledge. It's not a dead ringer for Know: Geo, but that's about the closest skill that fits, so far as I can tell. If you'd recommend a different skill that fits it better, (or any other way to explain specific, technical knowledge mechanically), I'd be interested in alternatives.

[TooSoon]

Y'know, I think that there's some truth in that we've put up some very arbitrary stats up in the first post. It might be worth it to go over the stat blocks and trim the fat.
Just going over Roy's skills, I think we can strike at least 5 from his statblock because they just do not hold up to scrutiny:

Heal (comic). A Heal check isn't required to identify poison.
Knowledge: Geography (comic). Using navigational tools is different from having knowledge about lands, terrain, climate, and/or people of a particular region.
Knowledge: Planes, (comic). Considering that Roy was dead 5 strips before, I'm going to say that this isn't so much a skill rank as it is firsthand experience.
Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF 810a). No evidence that playing sports requires a Profession skill.
Profession: Goatherd (comic). No evidence that two semesters translates to a rank in a Profession skill.

I'd rather a more inclusive approach where we tend to keep the old stuff, but just add new stuff as well with a less rigourous burden of proof.

[Yanisa]

Heal (comic). A Heal check isn't required to identify poison.

Well actually you need a spell to detect poisons and then pass a DC 20 wisdom check to identify. So this implies Roy has quicken silent detect poison.

Jokes asides, I'm pretty sure there is a mundane, skill based way to identify poisons outside of core, but I cannot remember what book it was. Probably another book added an addendum to heal or it was answered in a FAQ on the old wizard's site. Maybe someone else has a source?

[Kornaki]

He didn't identify the poison, he identified that it was probably poison based on Elan acting like he'd been poisoned. Doesn't seem like a skill is needed for that.

[InvisibleBison]

He didn't identify the poison, he identified that it was probably poison based on Elan acting like he'd been poisoned. Doesn't seem like a skill is needed for that.

No, in the antepenultimate panel he looks at the shuriken and identifies the poison as one that does Constitution damage. He's definitely using some sort of mechanic there, though I'm not sure what.

[hamishspence]

I'd tentatively suggest Knowledge (nature) or Knowledge (dungeoneering).

The Detect Poison spell uses Craft (alchemy) - but as written, you don't need to use the Detect Poison spell when it comes to treating a poison. A character with no ranks in Craft (alchemy) and lots in Heal, can treat a poison just fine despite making no effort to identify which poison it was.

Possibly a character with ranks in Craft (trapmaking) and ranks in Heal, who routinely crafts their own poison traps, ought to get a synergy bonus (or if they have Knowledge (Nature) or something similar) but there's no rules for it - it would be entirely DM fiat.

[Carl]

I'd tentatively suggest Knowledge (nature) or Knowledge (dungeoneering).

The Detect Poison spell uses Craft (alchemy) - but as written, you don't need to use the Detect Poison spell when it comes to treating a poison. A character with no ranks in Craft (alchemy) and lots in Heal, can treat a poison just fine despite making no effort to identify which poison it was.

Possibly a character with ranks in Craft (trapmaking) and ranks in Heal, who routinely crafts their own poison traps, ought to get a synergy bonus (or if they have Knowledge (Nature) or something similar) but there's no rules for it - it would be entirely DM fiat.

Since you need some idea of whats wrong with someone to properly treat it i would assume a heal check includes and/or can be used to diagnose the injuries someone is suffering from. That they are poisoned, (and what effects, but not necessarily which specific poison), is a reasonable thing to be able to diagnose.

My read is that the idea the shuriken where the source of the poison was speculation, whilst the fact that Elan was taking constitution damage was a result of some skill or feat. A heal check whilst not explicitly allowed to do this is a reasonable DM fiat thing it could do. If anyone can think of a good alternative go ahead however.

[Crusher]

"No one cares about that stuff anymore"

Hah, good one, Belkar!

[Wildstag]

Y'know, I think that there's some truth in that we've put up some very arbitrary stats up in the first post. It might be worth it to go over the stat blocks and trim the fat.
Just going over Roy's skills, I think we can strike at least 5 from his statblock because they just do not hold up to scrutiny:

Knowledge: Geography (comic). Using navigational tools is different from having knowledge about lands, terrain, climate, and/or people of a particular region.
Knowledge: Planes, (comic). Considering that Roy was dead 5 strips before, I'm going to say that this isn't so much a skill rank as it is firsthand experience.

We do know that his memory of planar happenings waned somewhat after resurrection, so specific information probably still requires a rank.

Per Stormwrack (which might be in play, I dunno), a sextant provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (Geography) and that same book sets DCs for piloting and course setting, which is probably highly relevant to the seafaring arc and the desert-navigation where we see Roy use a sextant.

On the other hand, we can't quite say without proof that such DCs were being used, so I dunno. Given Frostburn is in play, it might be reasonable to say that at least one other environmental supplement is being used.

[Peelee]

Per Stormwrack (which might be in play, I dunno), a sextant provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (Geography) and that same book sets DCs for piloting and course setting, which is probably highly relevant to the seafaring arc and the desert-navigation where we see Roy use a sextant.

Good to know! No wonder my QAD check didn't turn up anything for it.

[Ortho]

We do know that his memory of planar happenings waned somewhat after resurrection, so specific information probably still requires a rank.

Roy's mostly being philosophical, though. I don't think that any specific information is being shared here at all. Aside from that Outsiders are unable to be resurrected, but he learned about that in 603

Per Stormwrack (which might be in play, I dunno), a sextant provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (Geography) and that same book sets DCs for piloting and course setting, which is probably highly relevant to the seafaring arc and the desert-navigation where we see Roy use a sextant.

On the other hand, we can't quite say without proof that such DCs were being used, so I dunno. Given Frostburn is in play, it might be reasonable to say that at least one other environmental supplement is being used.

Thanks for the input. I only have access to the SRD, so I can't double check the other books in play.

[TooSoon]

"No one cares about that stuff anymore"

Hah, good one, Belkar!

Yet another sign the bar for proof on this thread should not be set so high.

NB: and look, V has yet again been split off from the party with Hayley and Belkar, and has been plot balled as well; any reason to not just cast grasping hand, like before they even separated, which she can't use her wand of dimension door to get out of? Of course not. V knows it would work, because Hayley grappled Serini, and it has a range of 280 feet for V.

[Ephemera]

Yet another sign the bar for proof on this thread should not be set so high.

Is it, though? It's no mystery that the comic doesn't operate on strict rules, and neither does any plausible version of this thread, really. You seem to be advocating for establishing strict rules, but I don't think this is actually possible. I mean, really try to sit down and write a set of rules that cover every situation regarding the heirarchy of which pieces of evidence trump which other ones (in a way that isn't subject to multiple interpretations), and which sources should be used, and how, if multiple explanations are possible, to resolve which ones to use. I'll wait.

...

Of course it's not truly possible, and we just each have our own idea of how it should work. This is not, ultimately, a flaw in the rules, it's a flaw in what we're trying to do, so we have mostly carry a bias towards things that can be figured out, and also towards things that can be agreed on. This is squidgy, but there isn't actually an alternative world where we just nail it down to arbitrary rules--not only would the rules themselves be so cumbersome that we'd spend all our time arguing about how to interpret them, but the rules themselves would no doubt wind up being self-contradictory. This is just a feature of complex systems, and even if you could nail it down, the results would likely be highly unsatisfying from a "does this really make sense" perspective.

Once or twice a thread, we get bogged down in a really detailed argument about something controversial, and a few people get really worked up, and then we move on. In this case, I think you have presented a fairly compelling case, and maybe even have brought me personally around to the view that we ought to list V as level 17.

That said, the other side has a case, too, and it's pretty clear that we don't have consensus. A post-at-a-time forum isn't a fantastic tool for achieving consensus when there is real disagreement, so I would opine that we've arrived at a system where when we reach an impasse we just move on, and no amount of saying your argument over again (or louder) is really likely to convince anyone at this time, so I would suggest we just move on for now, and hopefully the comic will give us more information soon and then it will be a moot point.

In the meantime, what does V mean by casting weaker dispel magic?

[Metastachydium]

In the meantime, what does V mean by casting weaker dispel magic?

Dispel Magic rather than Greater Dispel Magic.

[Rogan]

Yet another sign the bar for proof on this thread should not be set so high.

NB: and look, V has yet again been split off from the party with Hayley and Belkar, and has been plot balled as well; any reason to not just cast grasping hand, like before they even separated, which she can't use her wand of dimension door to get out of? Of course not. V knows it would work, because Hayley grappled Serini, and it has a range of 280 feet for V.

I read this more as "Look, the less important rules are not followed every time". Which would point out that you should not try to determine Vs level by the number of people included in a spell.

And I fail to see your point here. V is part of the action, chasing Serini who is very important for the plot since she knows a lot about the gates. V is not on a solo adventure or sidelined. It's rather the other way round. Roy and Durkon are down and out of focus, while Elan (probably) is busy using diplomacy on Sunny, off panel.

And the shell choice... maybe V thought a higher duration would be important, so they all have time to talk to Serini? Or she wanted to conserve her higher level spell slots?
And how on earth should V have known that Serini has a magic item to get out of a magic prison?

V made a reasonable choice here.

[Seward]

My read is that the idea the shuriken where the source of the poison was speculation, whilst the fact that Elan was taking constitution damage was a result of some skill or feat. A heal check whilst not explicitly allowed to do this is a reasonable DM fiat thing it could do. If anyone can think of a good alternative go ahead however.

It kind of depends how you think about hitpoints and ability damage. You can look at somebody and see that they are injured without a check. How BADLY injured? no mechanic, although if unconscious the difference between bleeding out and dead is another grey area, barring something like Deathwatch active.

Some GMs require a spot check to see extent of injuries, some use heal. For a poison you might use Kn Nature if it is a spider or Kn Arcana if a Wyvern etc...Kn skill varies by source, although KN skill is more like 'wyvern poison does con damage and that is a wyvern that just stung Elan" as opposed to Per and/or Heal which might be "He's taking CON damage from SOMETHING and it is ongoing..."

In the OOTVerse, damage is visible (scrapes and whatnot), and poisons look a certain way (you go green with bubbles). Death is obvious from the X in the eyes barring disguise skill tricks. Con damage...not as visible to casual reader but Roy might have seen something. Both Per and Heal are untrained skills and Roy is supposed to have a non-negative wisdom score, so he might have just rolled either of those high.

And the shell choice... maybe V thought a higher duration would be important, so they all have time to talk to Serini? Or she wanted to conserve her higher level spell slots?

While I agree, on basis of high rogue reflex saves alone, a grasping hand would have been a better call, there is always a reason why any wizard might not do something.

V prepared different 7th level spells today. No grasping hand today. We know V's spellbook, but not spells prepared on any given day.

V doesn't get very many high level spell slots, Forcecage is usually one of them (and has a steep material component cost so using the free, 4th level sphere first may have seemed like a better choice since V had 2 teammates nearby in case it failed)

[TooSoon]

While I agree, on basis of high rogue reflex saves alone, a grasping hand would have been a better call, there is always a reason why any wizard might not do something.

V prepared different 7th level spells today. No grasping hand today. We know V's spellbook, but not spells prepared on any given day.

V doesn't get very many high level spell slots, Forcecage is usually one of them (and has a steep material component cost so using the free, 4th level sphere first may have seemed like a better choice since V had 2 teammates nearby in case it failed)

V could STILL have cast grasping hand, who needs to "pursue" with flight when you can grab them from 280 feet away with grasping hand? Ok, maybe V did not prepare it (despite variations of it being V's most commonly used spell) but it seems unlikely. Even if you're trying to conserve higher spells with resilient sphere, why not just follow up with the grasping hand when she gets out of it. She has literally no escape from it. It's also not that valuable a slot, I mean V gets at least 4 level 7 spells per day, and if V is level 17 as I believe they have 3 level 8 spells and 2 level 9 spells above that. It feels like capturing Serini for 18 rounds merits its use. You'll assuredly burn even more spells if she gets more distance on you and can activate more built in traps and defenses, plus if Serini is in range of Resilient Sphere she's definitely in range of grasping hand. The former only has a range of 70 feet for a level 17 Wizard, while the latter has a 280 foot range. After she escapes the sphere just grasp her. End fight. That obviously didn't happen because it would have been unsatisfying for the plot.

[DaOldeWolf]

V could STILL have cast grasping hand, who needs to "pursue" with flight when you can grab them from 280 feet away with grasping hand? Ok, maybe V did not prepare it (despite variations of it being V's most commonly used spell) but it seems unlikely. Even if you're trying to conserve higher spells with resilient sphere, why not just follow up with the grasping hand when she gets out of it. She has literally no escape from it. It's also not that valuable a slot, I mean V gets at least 4 level 7 spells per day, and if V is level 17 as I believe they have 3 level 8 spells and 2 level 9 spells above that. It feels like capturing Serini for 18 rounds merits its use. You'll assuredly burn even more spells if she gets more distance on you and can activate more built in traps and defenses, plus if Serini is in range of Resilient Sphere she's definitely in range of grasping hand. The former only has a range of 70 feet for a level 17 Wizard, while the latter has a 280 foot range. After she escapes the sphere just grasp her. End fight. That obviously didn't happen because it would have been unsatisfying for the plot.

Why would V have to have the spell? The plan was never to capture Serini. Serini was never part of the equation for spell selection. If V had prepared a sonic spell, they could have been the evil trees earlier in the comic but he didn't either. It happens. V can't have every single spell ready.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, V was planning to fight Team Evil, not Serini. They have far less impressive Reflex saves than her, I’d wager.

[TooSoon]

I mean, V was planning to fight Team Evil, not Serini. They have far less impressive Reflex saves than her, I’d wager.

I'd say some form of the hand spells is basically mandatory for V, given their past history (and given the usefulness of the spell). As long as one of the prepared ones is level 7 or higher, it can be used in the way Grasping Hand is, regardless of whether it's with an 8th or 9th spell slot.

[danielxcutter]

Point of order: if V had 9th level slots then it’d be better to use Crushing Hand.

Also, this isn’t really important but it’s a huge bummer than Xykon is basically resistant or immune to… basically EVERYTHING the Order can do except Durkon’s hammer and maybe a Sunburst from V.

[TooSoon]

Point of order: if V had 9th level slots then it’d be better to use Crushing Hand.

Also, this isn’t really important but it’s a huge bummer than Xykon is basically resistant or immune to… basically EVERYTHING the Order can do except Durkon’s hammer and maybe a Sunburst from V.

Except I don't think they want to hurt Serini, so you'd be using it as grasping hand functionally, so as to avoid actual crushing.

Xykon's resistances are annoying, but there's actually a tonne of stuff he can still be hurt by. We had that whole list on ways V could theoretically beat him in 1 round by himself. There are some shockingly easy ways the Order could beat Xykon, including just pinning him down with an AMF ironically enough. None of them will happen, because it'll be unenjoyable for the plot, but there are plenty of theoretical ways. Xykon wouldn't even survive a fight with the Ancient Black Dragon, let alone bigger guns we've seen like the Vector Legion who would probably crush him given their hinted at levels and apparent optimization. The only thing keeping Xykon alive to this point has been plot armour. There are doubtless a tonne of beings in this world who can crush him (high level dragons for eg). He already lost to a 9th level fighter, the Ghost of Soon, and a random Silver Dragon.

[danielxcutter]

Except I don't think they want to hurt Serini, so you'd be using it as grasping hand functionally, so as to avoid actual crushing.

I think Crushing Hand has a higher Str? But yeah, it can be used like the lower end Hand spells IIRC.

Xykon's resistances are annoying, but there's actually a tonne of stuff he can still be hurt by. We had that whole list on ways V could theoretically beat him in 1 round by himself. There are some shockingly easy ways the Order could beat Xykon, including just pinning him down with an AMF ironically enough. None of them will happen, because it'll be unenjoyable for the plot, but there are plenty of theoretical ways. Xykon wouldn't even survive a fight with the Ancient Black Dragon, let alone bigger guns we've seen like the Vector Legion who would probably crush him given their hinted at levels and apparent optimization. The only thing keeping Xykon alive to this point has been plot armour. There are doubtless a tonne of beings in this world who can crush him (high level dragons for eg). He already lost to a 9th level fighter, the Ghost of Soon, and a random Silver Dragon.

AMF is valid(granted that goes for a lot of pure caster types). Roy beating him only worked because Xykon was arrogant enough to not do much until he got yeeted into the Pure Heart Rune, though, and losing a grapple check against a Fighter really isn't implausible for a single-classed Sorcerer.

The only real thing that easily damages him on the Order's side is the hammer and a Sunburst though, maybe a Disintegrate. He's immune to V's energy and Hand spells, Durkon has like half his character levels, Roy can probably hurt him but undead use their Charisma scores for Concentration so I'm not confident the Splinterspell Maneuver will even work, and the rest of the party can't even scratch him, though they'd be able to hurt his allies a lot.

[TooSoon]

I think Crushing Hand has a higher Str? But yeah, it can be used like the lower end Hand spells IIRC.



AMF is valid(granted that goes for a lot of pure caster types). Roy beating him only worked because Xykon was arrogant enough to not do much until he got yeeted into the Pure Heart Rune, though, and losing a grapple check against a Fighter really isn't implausible for a single-classed Sorcerer.

The only real thing that easily damages him on the Order's side is the hammer and a Sunburst though, maybe a Disintegrate. He's immune to V's energy and Hand spells, Durkon has like half his character levels, Roy can probably hurt him but undead use their Charisma scores for Concentration so I'm not confident the Splinterspell Maneuver will even work, and the rest of the party can't even scratch him, though they'd be able to hurt his allies a lot.

Once we assume V is level 17 that opens up a lot of ways for V to handle Xykon, especially if V took a level in Archmage since then (or more than 1). For instance, with mastery of elements V could cast Meteor Swarm and then change the output to Sonic or something that will hurt him, and then chain that with a quickened disintegrate or other quickened empowered spell. V could use arcane reach to hit him with a 1 shot spell like Imprisonment from 30 feet or more away. V could use shapechange to great effect. As the thread discussed, there are many ways V can mess Xykon up, especially with spells we haven't seen, but which are in theory within their ability to now possess. Of course none of this will happen, because it's boring, but I think Xykon is being overrated as a threat significantly.

[danielxcutter]

Assuming levels in a specific PrC is kinda silly, especially when precisely one member of the party has one at all and that was a one-level dip. And not every arcane caster takes Archmage either(if only because some are essentially full casting progression with class features for no drawback; Archmage is good but does have a legitimate cost).

I don't think V has to personally hurt Xykon to contribute greatly, though; buffs and battlefield control are usually even more effective than just straight up blasting.