OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Also, of course they're tossing the evil artefact that's keeping the evil sorcerer-lord form death into a volcano to destroy it. That's just good form.

[dancrilis]

Whyever would Roy fantasise about taking Xykon's phylactery thousands of miles away? Makes more sense to me that he's fantasising about taking the phylactery to the nearest volcano on the Western continent, instead.

Book ends, the place he first defeated Xykon, Elan feels it is appropraite etc.
It would make sense to me that he has fantasised about how things would have been different if he had only finished off Xykon initially - but yea it would not be a logical choice for him, just Redmountain Hills with some red(ish) mountains made me think of it after I had decided it was the rift (back around whenever the comic came out).

[Peelee]

Yup - the pale stuff is almost exactly the same shade as Elan's hair in the same strip, and the dark stuff almost exactly the same shade as Haley's.

And frankly, having them be slightly brighter (as far as I can tell) seems to indicate a glow, as one would expect from molten rock.

[Mike Havran]

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.

Yep. I can imagine a fanatical god so much devoted to the universal idea of Good that would gladly starve for a chance that a force of Evil perishes, but majority of gods will be far more pragmatic. Especially since they are kind of a crew that have worked together for a long time.

[Thermophille]

Also, of course they're tossing the evil artefact that's keeping the evil sorcerer-lord form death into a volcano to destroy it. That's just good form.

I was gonna reply that there's no way his phylactery is susceptible to lava, and then I realized that his regenerating body would be.

[gatemansgc]

So will she be swayed, or will she move the goalposts? Interesting quandry ahead.

i just love her confused expressions the whole time.

[Fyraltari]

I was gonna reply that there's no way his phylactery is susceptible to lava, and then I realized that his regenerating body would be.

This is a double fantasy where Elan's parent remarry and Xykon remembers Roy's name. Everything can happen.

[HalfTangible]

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.

Eh they don't necessarily have to value Odin being in charge so much as they have to fear Hel being in charge.

Hel's attitude towards the previous world and Loki's bet with her suggests to me that she's always been a cruel and careless goddess, this particular world has just grated on her nerves massively

[Worldsong]

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral. And here there's two LG people telling her the same thing, and one of them is also a dwarf so there's the whole honour business.

Of course, this isn't a 100% surefire thing, but I think she'd at least first try to find a line of reasoning where the OotS is wrong but where Roy and Durkon aren't lying.

[Ruck]

I really love all the reasoned arguments here.

Same. I was very excited to see this strip. We're finally getting to the fireworks factory! (Well, this fireworks factory, anyway.)

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.

It's Jurassic Park, not Boogie Nights.

[Matt620]

Serini's short-sighted arrogance and bitterness is actually pretty funny to watch. I'm reminded of a really old Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode that was an alternate reality caused by Cordelia's errant wish. At the very end, Giles is about to restore the world when the demon tries to stop him by stating he can't destroy this reality, because he has no idea if the other reality could be any better. Giles responds that it has to be, and does it.

Serini's like the dark inverse of that: She's so arrogant in thinking she understands the Snarl better than the Gods. But the thought process can't even cross her mind. And of course, she's also low-key racist about humans and other races

[dancrilis]

i just love her confused expressions the whole time.

She didn't have a confused expression in panel 10 (and perhaps less relevantly 1 to 3).

For panel 10 - I can imagine her thinking up a few other options.

[Peelee]

It's Jurassic Park, not Boogie Nights.

Jack Horner was mentioned in both the Jurassic Park novel and movie, and also served as the inspiration for Dr. Alan Grant in virtually every possible way. He also worked as consultant on the JP movie series.

I know it was a joke, but do not doubt my Jurassic Park chops. I've accomplished one dream of being in the 501st, but am still too poor to achieve my other dream of being in the Jurassic Park Motor Pool.

[Ruck]

I just hope someone here has a story about a family member being mentioned in Boogie Nights.

[F.Harr]

Well, a path is a path. And it's the most obvious one available.

[Wowlock]

Honestly, I thought Durkon did a crap job of persuading RC. I feel he would have done better to stress how much leverage TDO has due to possibly containing the Snarl, which should (if believed, which is admittedly a sticking point) make him more interested in opening negotiations. More importantly, it means that TDO has something to lose by not doing so. I feel like right now the logic of what TDO knows gives him no reason not to wait for his position to get stronger.

Problem with that is Red Cloak's character flaw. He could've accepted the deal but his ego didn't allow him. If the Dark One knew about it, he would probably make some deals with the other gods. Red Cloak put his own self interest first. He also thinks he knows better than most and that will be his downfall too.

[HalfTangible]

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral. And here there's two LG people telling her the same thing, and one of them is also a dwarf so there's the whole honour business.

Of course, this isn't a 100% surefire thing, but I think she'd at least first try to find a line of reasoning where the OotS is wrong but where Roy and Durkon aren't lying.

Well, she does not necessarily know that Roy is LG (fighters do not have the same alignment restrictions Paladins do) and this is news to Lien. She could decide Roy is lying and Lien just believes him cuz he's a well-intentioned good guy.

[brian 333]

...edit...

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

I came to the discussion late, but would evolved self replicating nanites that form colonies of specialized units that divide work and share energy, which then replicate these colonies which further evolve such that each colony forms an individual consciousness count as life for Dr.Malcolm's purpose? Temperature and availability of liquid water would be less important to such life, and we may be on the verge of creating the most primitive generation of such a life form now.

Isn't this how DNA based life organized and evolved into forms larger than unicellular plants and animals?

As a side issue: superhot Venus has lots of water, in clouds. Would it not be possible for life to evolve techniques to condense atmospheric water vapor for use in it's cells, and evolve mechanisms to retain and recycle that water?

[MADCrab]

As best we know, no. Water lets proteins move and interact. Solids just stick together at that scale.

[Wraithfighter]

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral.

Yeah, but so did Mister Girard "Thinks A Paladin Would Violate A Sacred Oath" Draketooth, and we saw how that worked for them.

I figure that she's going to be cynical and paranoid about it for a fair bit longer, and it'll take the Order pulling a "fine, you don't want to help, whatever, we've got a world to save" in order to get it through her skull that these aren't low-level chump NPCs that she can ignore, they're the main heroes.

[Thermophille]

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

Didn't see this on my first readthrough. Just a shoutout to my namesake.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, but so did Mister Girard "Thinks A Paladin Would Violate A Sacred Oath" Draketooth, and we saw how that worked for them.

I figure that she's going to be cynical and paranoid about it for a fair bit longer, and it'll take the Order pulling a "fine, you don't want to help, whatever, we've got a world to save" in order to get it through her skull that these aren't low-level chump NPCs that she can ignore, they're the main heroes.

On the other hand, that's Girard. That's a level of self-delusion and paranoia rarely seen even in fiction.

[TheNecrocomicon]

My main grounds for thinking Serini won't go down the same path as Redcloak or Girard is that it would be narratively repetitive.

Redcloak has his existing flaws around sunk-cost fallacies and raw arrogance and speciesism that, unless his trajectory changes, has him headed for self-induced doom (rather than redemption).

Girard also let his rampant paranoia take up so much real estate in his mind that it led to a critical flaw that doomed his and his family's life work.

Serini has still allowed herself the potential to change, despite being locked into decades of increasingly bitter cynicism. She may or may not fully come out of it, but the signs are there that she'll probably grudgingly allow her mindset to evolve -- such as the fact that she was, by all accounts, probably the most open-minded out of her original party, and continues to be at least with regards to her menagerie of Gate guardians.

[hroþila]

There was a Godsmoot to discuss the demolition of the world back during the first rift crisis, and it's perfectly possible that the Scribblers knew about it. And according to Shojo, "[the Scribblers] agreed it was best to not let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison". So all of this should sound at least plausible to Serini.

[Liquor Box]

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral. And here there's two LG people telling her the same thing, and one of them is also a dwarf so there's the whole honour business.

Of course, this isn't a 100% surefire thing, but I think she'd at least first try to find a line of reasoning where the OotS is wrong but where Roy and Durkon aren't lying.

Aside from whether she will believe them, there's still a question whether it will change her mind. Someone brought it up in a recent thread

Given her pragmatic preference for a world ruled by evil over the destruction of everything, she may prefer the world being destroyed (but the god remaining to build another, and souls still going to the afterlife) over the destruction of everything (including the gods/afterlife/souls). Especially since she seems to think her chances, or the Order's chances, of stopping Xykon are essentially zero.

[Fyraltari]

And of course, she's also low-key racist about humans and other races

What makes you think that?

[hamishspence]

What makes you think that?

I'm guessing, from lines like "balloon-headed cloud-scrapers".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1252.html

[elros]

I hope that Serini points out that the gods are "knocking over the game board" by destroying the world instead of letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate. In Panel #9 Roy looks like he is angry at the gods for the same reason, and I see the two of them agreeing enough to work together.
I also really like Serini's point that she can "see things like a troll", because she would probably be the person who could convince Redcloak to abandon the plan.

[Fyraltari]

I'm guessing, from lines like "balloon-headed cloud-scrapers".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1252.html

Isn't that just a way to call them dumb? Like "airhead"?

[hamishspence]

The "cloud-scrapers" bit is a shot at their height.