What the heck is with Shadar-Kai

[Leon]

Its a option, some people will flock to it because its apparent strength, some people will use it because they like the race for what it is outside of mechanics and others wont care and keep on playing other things.

[stoutstien]

The only thing that really peeks my interest about them is it possible mitigation they can get from the resistance when they teleport. I like high mitigation concepts but not enough to play another elf.

[Psyren]

The Peryton example was clutching at straws and you know it.

I listed multiple other examples of scaling Medium mounts (Steel Defender, Animal Companion, Primal Companion) and can add even more (Drake companion, Lorehold mascot, summons etc), all of which are even more viable for Aasimar now that they have floating ASIs - but I don't actually care about continuing to derail with you, let's move on.

The only thing that really peeks my interest about them is it possible mitigation they can get from the resistance when they teleport. I like high mitigation concepts but not enough to play another elf.

Have you given Earth Genasi a look, with their bonus action Blade Ward?

[stoutstien]

Have you given Earth Genasi a look, with their bonus action Blade Ward?

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.

[strangebloke]

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.

I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

[stoutstien]

I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

Or have Warcaster but yea it suffer from a lot tiny issues. Not enough to make it uninteresting but enough to wonder why they just didn't make it work more intuitively. Not hard to write of a feature that does the same thing without using spell casting.
Id probably say if it's just going to work on the big three damage types from weapons it also could use a little more. Maybe a mini rock ward that gives you that Reis for few rounds or something.

[Psyren]

It's interesting but the shadar is better for a few reasons. Not a spell, works for all damage not just B/S/P weapons, and teleport is better than earth glide
(depending on sight blockage)

Saying that getting PWT is a big perk.

I'd probably pick the genasi over the elf because its not an elf though I'm more of a hobgoblin guy.

I agree, the genasi ability is a lot worse. In addition to everything you said, you need a free hand to cast it which means you're either missing a shield or a weapon. Not a problem for all builds, but definitely a problem for some.

Oh it's definitely worse than Shadar-Kai, not arguing that at all, but if the interest was for quote "mitigation concepts" - they get an okay one built in.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Dark vision is really good though.

Also, because of the feat, it's not really a +2, it's generally a +3, plus the other benefits of the feat. That's really strong. When other characters are just taking their first feat, TCL is capping their main stat. That's incredibly good for casters especially.

My view is that the most SAD characters are Rogues since their AC is also tied to Dex (and Dex is one of the common saves). That said, to me these are the characters that benefit most from CL. And, as you say, they aren't hamstrung by lack of Dark vision, like VHumans.

[Dork_Forge]

Is darkvision really considered that big a deal? Besides there being several ways to achieve it (or better), ime it only matters at all of everyone in the party has it and you disregards it's downsides.

[Amechra]

My view is that the most SAD characters are Rogues since their AC is also tied to Dex (and Dex is one of the common saves). That said, to me these are the characters that benefit most from CL. And, as you say, they aren't hamstrung by lack of Dark vision, like VHumans.

Fighters and Rogues are the classes that win at ability scores in 5e, since they both really only need a single ability score (Dex for Rogues, Str/Dex for Fighters). Which makes it kinda ironic that those are the two classes that get extra ASIs.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Is darkvision really considered that big a deal? Besides there being several ways to achieve it (or better), ime it only matters at all of everyone in the party has it and you disregards it's downsides.

I don't consider dark vision huge. I consider dark vision + a +2 bump on top of a 1/2 feat to prime ability for SAD characters pretty significant. I know not everyone uses point buy, but an 18 as a starting ability is a big deal when everyone else is restricted to 16/17 at tables that do.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't consider dark vision huge. I consider dark vision + a +2 bump on top of a 1/2 feat to prime ability for SAD characters pretty significant. I know not everyone uses point buy, but an 18 as a starting ability is a big deal when everyone else is restricted to 16/17 at tables that do.

Ahh, yeah I don't consider an 18 at 1st level such a huge advantage over the alternative, and by exclusively choosing half feats you're limiting the potential of the free feat.

I mean even SAD characters want a decent-good Con and probably secondary/tertiary stat. No class is truly SAD, not even Rogues and Dex Fighters.

I'd certainly weigh a lot of racial abilities are more impactful than being slightly ahead of the curve on primary stat progression.

[Phhase]

Looking at it, the fact that it resists all damage and allows you to target midair with the teleport makes me want to use it as a combo piece for a guillotine plunging attack gimmick build. Perfect for resisting the fall damage while getting some height to slam jam on your opponents with.

[Psyren]

Fighters and Rogues are the classes that win at ability scores in 5e, since they both really only need a single ability score (Dex for Rogues, Str/Dex for Fighters). Which makes it kinda ironic that those are the two classes that get extra ASIs.

To this day I don't understand why Monks and Barbarians didn't get any. Paladins and Rangers I can kinda understand due to their spellcasting training, at the very least it's an excuse.

[Dork_Forge]

To this day I don't understand why Monks and Barbarians didn't get any. Paladins and Rangers I can kinda understand due to their spellcasting training, at the very least it's an excuse.

Rogues and Fighters don't get as many class features, so they get additional ASIs (potentially to also double down on the whole they can be anything aspect of the classes).

Monks get an insane amount of features throughout their entire progression, and have a much clearer general identity, the same is true (perhaps to a lesser degree) of Barbarians.

[Psyren]

Rogues and Fighters don't get as many class features, so they get additional ASIs (potentially to also double down on the whole they can be anything aspect of the classes).

Monks get an insane amount of features throughout their entire progression, and have a much clearer general identity, the same is true (perhaps to a lesser degree) of Barbarians.

That might have been the rationale, but the extra features those two get are pretty lackluster. I'd much rather have another ASI than, say, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Brutal Critical personally.

[Dork_Forge]

That might have been the rationale, but the extra features those two get are pretty lackluster. I'd much rather have another ASI than, say, Tongue of the Sun and Moon or Brutal Critical personally.

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

[Jervis]

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

[Dork_Forge]

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

I've no problem with Tongue coming online earlier, but Diamond Soul is a very powerful ability:

-It's not just prof in all saves, it's also other ability to reroll when you know that you've initially failed.

-The Paladin's feature relies on them needing a good Cha, this has a lower ceiling than prof and is unlikely for a lot of Paladins to even be a 4, nevermind 5.

And... Monks have nice things. Evasion is a very good feature and they get it alongside Stillness of Mind and an additional Ki point.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Maybe Unpopular opinion but toungue of sun and moon should come online much earlier as should Diamond soul. Honestly both of them should be a level 6-7ish feature. Maybe in place of evasion they got those two features rolled together at 7. And too anyone that says proficiency in all saves at 7 is OP, may I remind you that Paladin exists and just adds their charisma mod to their owns saves in addition to everyone else’s. Diamond soul is the same bonus at this level assuming average stats. Granted a Paladin could be in your party and giving you those buffs but monk needs nice things.

Plus tongue of sun and moon lets your voice be out of sink with your lip movements like a cheesy martial arts movie. And that’s just cool

I tend to agree with Diamond soul. Since it scales with level the benefit at lower levels wouldn't be out of line.

[Jervis]

I've no problem with Tongue coming online earlier, but Diamond Soul is a very powerful ability:

-It's not just prof in all saves, it's also other ability to reroll when you know that you've initially failed.

-The Paladin's feature relies on them needing a good Cha, this has a lower ceiling than prof and is unlikely for a lot of Paladins to even be a 4, nevermind 5.

And... Monks have nice things. Evasion is a very good feature and they get it alongside Stillness of Mind and an additional Ki point.

Fair point about rerolls, that might need to come to a later level. I still say save proficiency fits better at a earlier level. It’s a feature most players never really see and I still say it’s less impactful than a paladins aura. Keep in mind paladins add to their saves on top of their proficiency so that makes them really really good at the things they’re good at and at least OK at all the other saves. And while proficiency out scales that at higher levels it assumes that paladins won’t buff charisma or find a charisma boosting items. Which at those level is unlikely. There are only so many good feats and magic items are at least decently common in most games.

[Dork_Forge]

Fair point about rerolls, that might need to come to a later level. I still say save proficiency fits better at a earlier level. It’s a feature most players never really see and I still say it’s less impactful than a paladins aura. Keep in mind paladins add to their saves on top of their proficiency so that makes them really really good at the things they’re good at and at least OK at all the other saves. And while proficiency out scales that at higher levels it assumes that paladins won’t buff charisma or find a charisma boosting items. Which at those level is unlikely. There are only so many good feats and magic items are at least decently common in most games.

The Paladin's ability is dependent on investing in a secondary stat, that is a cost the Monk doesn't have to deal with in Diamond Soul. And whilst DS might not add on to their already good saves, but it does let them reroll the failures.

Whilst some Paladins will probably bump their Cha at some point, they have their primary weapon stat, Con, and feats to consider on the standard 5 ASIs. Unless you're playing a more support heavy Paladin, or one that doubles down on Cha in some way like an Oathbreaker, Cha is down the totem pole.

And... what Cha boosting items?

[Psyren]

Brutal Critical is lackluster feature in general, but I don't get changing tongue of the sun and moon for an ASI. 13th level the Monk just got an ASI and is receiving a PB bump in addition to more Ki, Tongue is just a roleplay feature.

Replacing an RP feature with an ASI is one-sided power creep and most of the features people tend to complain about on a Monk are features that most classes don't even get an equivalent of.

I'm not talking about the level you get it, obviously if Barbarian and Monk got 1 or more bonus ASI I would want to reorder their other features so that theirs fall in line with the bonus ASIs from other classes that get one.

As for "power creep," I don't think any class should only get an RP feature at any given level. Rogues for instance get Thieves' Cant (RP feature) alongside other, better things. The same goes for Artificer's Tinkering and Right Tool For the Job (and those even have mechanical uses.)

[strangebloke]

The Paladin's ability is dependent on investing in a secondary stat, that is a cost the Monk doesn't have to deal with in Diamond Soul. And whilst DS might not add on to their already good saves, but it does let them reroll the failures.

Whilst some Paladins will probably bump their Cha at some point, they have their primary weapon stat, Con, and feats to consider on the standard 5 ASIs. Unless you're playing a more support heavy Paladin, or one that doubles down on Cha in some way like an Oathbreaker, Cha is down the totem pole.

And... what Cha boosting items?

Adding to this, its a bit much to ask every random monk feature to stand up to paladin aura, the strongest non-spellcasting feature in the game. Diamond Soul remains the best saves-protection ability in the game other than paladin aura, and is a very strong ability.

I think it'd be fine to move it up a bit. Level 9, for example wouldn't be too early. But this kind of exacerbates the other problem, that nobody gets any cool class features after level 11

[Psyren]

Adding to this, its a bit much to ask every random monk feature to stand up to paladin aura, the strongest non-spellcasting feature in the game. Diamond Soul remains the best saves-protection ability in the game other than paladin aura, and is a very strong ability.

I think it'd be fine to move it up a bit. Level 9, for example wouldn't be too early. But this kind of exacerbates the other problem, that nobody gets any cool class features after level 11

One thought I had was just to break Diamond Soul up. Instead of waiting for T3 for the whole thing, let them get two more saves in T2 and then the final two in T3.

Alternatively, keep DS as is (nothing until T3) but let Monk be thr only class to start the game with two strong saves (Dex and Wis.) This latter suggestion could encourage a lot of Monk 1/Something X builds though.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm not talking about the level you get it, obviously if Barbarian and Monk got 1 or more bonus ASI I would want to reorder their other features so that theirs fall in line with the bonus ASIs from other classes that get one.

As for "power creep," I don't think any class should only get an RP feature at any given level. Rogues for instance get Thieves' Cant (RP feature) alongside other, better things. The same goes for Artificer's Tinkering and Right Tool For the Job (and those even have mechanical uses.)

At the level they get Tongue, they also get a prof bonus increase and they get an additional Ki point, Monks never really just get a RP feature.

[Psyren]

At the level they get Tongue, they also get a prof bonus increase and they get an additional Ki point, Monks never really just get a RP feature.

Yeah no, thats some weak tea. I'd want to see actual features that are listed on the table at those levels.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah no, thats some weak tea. I'd want to see actual features that are listed on the table at those levels.

Weak tea? Tongue of the Sun and Moon is basically an always-on version of Tongues, a 3rd level spell. That's not comparable at all to Thieves' Cant or Magical Tinkering. Getting it alongside prof bonus increase (which for some subclasses is also more uses of their abilities) and another Ki point is far from weak, even if you would prefer a combat feature.

Again, Monks get the most listed features of any class and gradual improvement from many angles (Ki, speed, MA Die) throughout their progression.

[Psyren]

Ah yes, always-on Tongues on the class that shouldn't be doing any of the talking anyway, what a great feature.

Let's just agree to disagree like we usually end up doing.

[strangebloke]

Ah yes, always-on Tongues on the class that shouldn't be doing any of the talking anyway, what a great feature.

Let's just agree to disagree like we usually end up doing.

I feel like saying "you're not a charisma class you should never talk" is kind of a bad attitude to bring to a table.