Magic: The Gathering Thread XXV: 3 Vorthoses barely clinging to sanity and 45 Spikes

[IthilanorStPete]

See the interesting thing is that IN UNIVERSE, people do consider Urza's fight against the compleated Mishra to be his first big heroic fight against Evil Phyrexians. Out of universe we know the truth, and Karn researching the old stories will likely lead to the shocking realization (to most modern folk, both in and out of universe) that this heroic war was really just a petty sibling squabble that Phyrexia only took advantage of, and that Urza is a hero only in comparison to his enemy's true evil.

I hadn't thought about that, that would work well.

So I don't think there'll be any retconning, persay. Maybe like, some clarification of some things (who slash what is Gix, who I bet will get a Praetor type line) and some elaboration on things the original story presented (what did Tawnos and Mishra's Tawnos whose name I forget but it's like, the girl, the cool girl everyone likes, what'd they do and stuff?).

Ashnod. (Who is indeed great, if...ethically challenged.) Some clarification/minor retconning would be fine with me, there are elements of the original stories that aren't quite consistent with how the Phyrexians ended up being presented even in the Weatherlight Saga, as long as the main character arcs are preserved.

[enderlord99]

Mishra's Tawnos whose name I forget

Would that be Ashnod?

[LaZodiac]

I hadn't thought about that, that would work well.



Ashnod. (Who is indeed great, if...ethically challenged.) Some clarification/minor retconning would be fine with me, there are elements of the original stories that aren't quite consistent with how the Phyrexians ended up being presented even in the Weatherlight Saga, as long as the main character arcs are preserved.

I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.

They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.

What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.

While also giving some additional stuff. I fully expect the set to have a Bo-Levar planeswalker card since it's canon he ignited during the Sylex Blast.

Would that be Ashnod?

Yup!

[Zombimode]

Not a fan of the D&D/MTG crossovers in general but Minsc being a planeswalker is a really strange decision. I fail to see the logic behind that.

Drafting a Commander deck is weird. And FFA multiplayer is really not a good tournament format.

[LaZodiac]

Not a fan of the D&D/MTG crossovers in general but Minsc being a planeswalker is a really strange decision. I fail to see the logic behind that.

Drafting a Commander deck is weird. And FFA multiplayer is really not a good tournament format.

It's a casual sort of tournament, so don't stress and it'll be a lot better to play, I think.

Minsc gets to be a planeswalker because of a variety of reasons. He's popular being one of them, his adorable hamster leading to interesting mechanical complexities to a card involving him that being a planeswalker would help being another. And speaking of Boo... Boo IS from Spelljammers or Planescape or whatever. He IS from space, and space is planar jumping. I don't know enough about DND to be sure but I imagine Minsc has been around a few interplanar portals in his time- so it fits.

Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.

[enderlord99]

Boo IS from Spelljammers or Planescape or whatever.

Spelljammer, yes.

He IS from space

That's it in a nutshell!

and space is planar jumping

Not at all. Spelljammer is, by definition, all part of one D&D Plane (that being the Prime Material)

Planescape is the next layer up, and as the name suggests, it is multiple Planes. Several of those Planes have things called "Layers" which are kinda like the Realms in Kaldheim, but not really; the Prime Material does not have Layers. It does have "Spheres" but those are all explicitly one... well, most things anyone would care about are part of "Arcane Space" which is pretty much literally a galaxy.

If you want more details, go here.

[IthilanorStPete]

I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.

They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.

What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.

^ all this is why I love Urza's arc.

Side note: when Time Spiral block came out, and part of the WotC creative team's justification for making planeswalkers less powerful was because it was hard/impossible to write decent storylines with such powerful main characters, I was really annoyed because Urza shows it's definitely possible. With hindsight, though, it's definitely easier to write stories with external threats for post-Mending 'walkers, and making planeswalkers a much larger part of Magic's story and mechanics has worked out well. So I'm only a little annoyed these days.

[The Hellbug]

I feel like Urza secretly being kind of a **** wouldn't be that big a surprise to Karn, but to everyone else? Absolutely. Girard never told anyone about how Urza straight up ****ing fell to Phyrexia at the end... because I'm pretty sure he died in the sacrifice to kill Yawgmoth, I don't quite remember all the details. So no one KNOWS that Urza set up a convoluted situation to excuse his using his fellow planeswalkers as soul-fed nukes. No one KNOWS he, at the very end, succumbed to the desire Yawgmoth gave him. No one KNOWS that everything Urza has done was because he and his brother got in a petty fight about a shiny rock.

They only know, in universe, about Urza the hero. Urza the mechanist. Urza who helped defeat the greatest evil.

What's fun though is that... none of these depictions of Urza is "right". Sure, by the end of his life, he was a hero only by virtue of his enemies being true, pure evil. But before the Brother War, before Urza, Planeswalker, there was Urza, a kid who just wanted to tinker with machines. He wanted to fix clocks and make robots. It's honestly my favorite part about Urza's arc- the power of being a God broke the dude. And I trust the brother war set will stick to this.

While also giving some additional stuff. I fully expect the set to have a Bo-Levar planeswalker card since it's canon he ignited during the Sylex Blast.

We got a card called Windgrace Acolyte and so-and-so, Knight of Windgrace in the last Dominaria set. If there's anyone following in Lord Windgrace's footsteps, they probably hate Urza like he did, even if they don't know the specifics of the whole Nine Titans fiasco.

And Teferi's still around, too. He may not have been there for the climax of it all, but he certainly has some opinions on Urza.

[noob]

I always liked Mishra(he was really ambitious and did so many revolutionary things).
I also always hated Urza for killing an artificer that is far better than him and surviving purely through being favoured by the writers.

[LaZodiac]

We got a card called Windgrace Acolyte and so-and-so, Knight of Windgrace in the last Dominaria set. If there's anyone following in Lord Windgrace's footsteps, they probably hate Urza like he did, even if they don't know the specifics of the whole Nine Titans fiasco.

And Teferi's still around, too. He may not have been there for the climax of it all, but he certainly has some opinions on Urza.

Yeah anyone who follows Lord Windgrace probably knows Urza's a bitch, but historically everyone knows Windgrace hated Urza so they might chalk it up to that.

Teferi and Jhoira and probably Jodah all know Urza's got problems, but none of them seem interested in making waves in history; an understandable behavior, given they were witness too some of the biggest waves Urza made and might be a little cautious about dramatically changing the world for no reason other than "this damaged mind is being revered as a hero when instead he was a big big jerk, mostly because of said damage."

EDIT: I don't think at all it was a case of "writer's favourite" with Urza killing Mishra. Remember the cards were made well before the story, and in the cards Urza wins. They wrote a story to match that.

Also Urza was the better artificer he did all this without the assistance of demon robots from the meat dimension.

[noob]

Yeah anyone who follows Lord Windgrace probably knows Urza's a bitch, but historically everyone knows Windgrace hated Urza so they might chalk it up to that.

Teferi and Jhoira and probably Jodah all know Urza's got problems, but none of them seem interested in making waves in history; an understandable behavior, given they were witness too some of the biggest waves Urza made and might be a little cautious about dramatically changing the world for no reason other than "this damaged mind is being revered as a hero when instead he was a big big jerk, mostly because of said damage."

EDIT: I don't think at all it was a case of "writer's favourite" with Urza killing Mishra. Remember the cards were made well before the story, and in the cards Urza wins. They wrote a story to match that.

Also Urza was the better artificer he did all this without the assistance of demon robots from the meat dimension.

He dug up the nuke artefact(he did not make it, it was pure luck) and the explosion should have killed him but instead made him a god(again pure luck and writer favour: he did not know it would or even could happen)

[LaZodiac]

He dug up the nuke artefact(he did not make it, it was pure luck) and the explosion should have killed him but instead made him a god(again pure luck and writer favour: he did not know it would or even could happen)

Urza and Mishra's entire story start because they went digging and found something they shouldn't. It blew up in their faces- it's narratively fitting the same happens at the end. Urza becoming a Planeswalker from the explosion isn't because he's a "writer's favourite". He's the hero of the story and it allows him to continue existing- but with the Powerstones he and Mishra found that started it firmly wedged into his eyes, his literal past a lens through which he continues to see the world.

It's incredible a piece of storytelling, given they had to account for the fact that "Urza wins through this ancient relic bomb he found and becomes a planeswalker" was set in stone before they even started writing.

[noob]

Urza and Mishra's entire story start because they went digging and found something they shouldn't. It blew up in their faces- it's narratively fitting the same happens at the end. Urza becoming a Planeswalker from the explosion isn't because he's a "writer's favourite". He's the hero of the story and it allows him to continue existing- but with the Powerstones he and Mishra found that started it firmly wedged into his eyes, his literal past a lens through which he continues to see the world.

It's incredible a piece of storytelling, given they had to account for the fact that "Urza wins through this ancient relic bomb he found and becomes a planeswalker" was set in stone before they even started writing.

Hero of the story is not exclusive with favourite of the author.
There is lots of stories where the hero dies.
Using a nuke (the nuke weapon was not a powerstone and was not something acquired at start, it was acquired late when the author needed to reverse the situation) at point blank range could have been an heroic sacrifice instead of urza just being dumb but becoming a god by luck.

[Personification]

What's funny is that, while Urza is definitely considered a hero in universe, basically all of our protagonists who know about him know enough to hate him as much as the audience, they just don't feel the need to talk about it. Also, while in Dominaria (2018) Karn was looking for (and maybe found) the sylex, and it was implied that he knew how to use it, I doubt he would ever use it on Dominaria. His plan was to use it on New Phyrexia as a sort of "nuke them all from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" thing because the entire plane was lost, but Dominaria is nowhere close to that and he knows about the Ice Age and is friends with people who were alive at the time so he won't start that again. Plus, we know that Dominaria has beaten a Phyrexian invasion before.

My prediction is that Sheoldred's invasion will meet a surprisingly knowledgeable resistance and learn some shocking things about the history of Phyrexia, and that this will be our big win before the heroes take major losses in Lacrosse and then get a huge come from behind victory in Marathon, with a question mark placed on both the denouement and the draft environment by Marathon Epilogue.

I really hope that Brothers' War is not a time travel set, but a flashback, because we don't need more of that. Maybe it's going to be a Princess Bride-esque reading of history to the young 'Walkers so they know the context of what they are fighting.

[LaZodiac]

Hero of the story is not exclusive with favourite of the author.
There is lots of stories where the hero dies.
Using a nuke (the nuke weapon was not a powerstone and was not something acquired at start, it was acquired late when the author needed to reverse the situation) at point blank range could have been an heroic sacrifice instead of urza just being dumb but becoming a god by luck.

True, but he's not a favorite of the author.

I'm well aware the Sylex is not a powerstone, I'm saying that thematically, it is something unearthed by Urza's hunger for knowledge- just like the Powerstone that became the Might and Weak stones. It's a parallel.

Given how Urza becomes after the Blast... I'd argue it is a heroic sacrifice even though he lives. Urza the man, the nice little coded-autistic guy who just wanted to fix clocks, has been beaten and broken by war, and is dead. Urza, Planeswalker, the paranoid god with immense power and no restraint, is what became of his death. Symbolic though it may be, it's more than fair to say he died and was reborn as a Planeswalker, more so than most other walkers.

What's funny is that, while Urza is definitely considered a hero in universe, basically all of our protagonists who know about him know enough to hate him as much as the audience, they just don't feel the need to talk about it. Also, while in Dominaria (2018) Karn was looking for (and maybe found) the sylex, and it was implied that he knew how to use it, I doubt he would ever use it on Dominaria. His plan was to use it on New Phyrexia as a sort of "nuke them all from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" thing because the entire plane was lost, but Dominaria is nowhere close to that and he knows about the Ice Age and is friends with people who were alive at the time so he won't start that again. Plus, we know that Dominaria has beaten a Phyrexian invasion before.

My prediction is that Sheoldred's invasion will meet a surprisingly knowledgeable resistance and learn some shocking things about the history of Phyrexia, and that this will be our big win before the heroes take major losses in Lacrosse and then get a huge come from behind victory in Marathon, with a question mark placed on both the denouement and the draft environment by Marathon Epilogue.

I really hope that Brothers' War is not a time travel set, but a flashback, because we don't need more of that. Maybe it's going to be a Princess Bride-esque reading of history to the young 'Walkers so they know the context of what they are fighting.

Yeah, with maybe Sheoldred coming away with a win of "someone gets killed/compleated, and they get the specific tech Norn wants" to set up for the Lacrosse sets.

Brother's War is not going to be a time travel set. It'll likely be Karn researching the Sylex to see how safe it is to use on New Phyrexia, if it needs a framing story. I'm pretty sure they've said as such as well.

[Zombimode]

Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.

But there is no such thing as a "Planeswalker Spark" in the Forgotten Realms or Planescape by extension.
That is one of the fundamental problems of crossovers like this: inevitably one setting has to bend over and conform to the other setting.
The Forgotten Realms already have a planar cosmology. A "planeswalker" in this setting is someone who has both the ability for planar travel and the habit of doing so. Elminster is very appropriately represented as Planeswalker card in MTG.
Minsc on the other hand is a braindamaged ranger. He traveled the planes exactly twice, and never on his own volition:
1. When he accompanied %Charname into the Planar Sphere which then travled somewhere to the Lower Planes.
2. When he was drawn into the Abyss while fighting Irenicus thanks to his close connection to %Charname.

That doesn't scream "Planeswalker" to me.

I wasn't imrpessed by the set from a flavour standpoint anyway. It styles itself as a Forgotten Realms flavoured set but includes several prominent characters from Greyhawk...

[LaZodiac]

But there is no such thing as a "Planeswalker Spark" in the Forgotten Realms or Planescape by extension.
That is one of the fundamental problems of crossovers like this: inevitably one setting has to bend over and conform to the other setting.
The Forgotten Realms already have a planar cosmology. A "planeswalker" in this setting is someone who has both the ability for planar travel and the habit of doing so. Elminster is very appropriately represented as Planeswalker card in MTG.
Minsc on the other hand is a braindamaged ranger. He traveled the planes exactly twice, and never on his own volition:
1. When he accompanied %Charname into the Planar Sphere which then travled somewhere to the Lower Planes.
2. When he was drawn into the Abyss while fighting Irenicus thanks to his close connection to %Charname.

That doesn't scream "Planeswalker" to me.

I wasn't imrpessed by the set from a flavour standpoint anyway. It styles itself as a Forgotten Realms flavoured set but includes several prominent characters from Greyhawk...

The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.

Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.

I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?

[enderlord99]

The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim.

Forgotten Realms doesn't have a cosmology. I mean, it does, but that's because of a couple really bad retcons. Putting all of D&D, ever as a single plane in Magic is a really stupid idea, no matter how "easy" you think it is.

I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?

They're separate settings. Forgotten Realms takes place on a planet called "Toril" whereas Greyhawk is a different planet in a different Sphere, with Spheres basically being solar-systems. The size of real solar-systems.

Seriously, go to that thread I linked.

[LaZodiac]

Forgotten Realms doesn't have a cosmology. I mean, it does, but that's because of a couple really bad retcons. Putting all of D&D, ever as a single plane in Magic is a really stupid idea, no matter how "easy" you think it is.They're separate settings. Forgotten Realms takes place on a planet called "Toril" whereas Greyhawk is a different planet in a different Sphere, with Spheres basically being solar-systems. The size of real solar-systems.

Seriously, go to that thread I linked.

I disagree, and it seems quite easy actually. The material plane, the ethereal shadow beneath it, the various elemental planes, all of deep space, the nine hells and what not. Other planets. None of this feels weird or uneasy to work together at all. What about it makes it difficult?

I may do that after work, since it could be an interesting read!

[Spore]

I don't know enough about DND to be sure but I imagine Minsc has been around a few interplanar portals in his time- so it fits.

Also, if anyone in the DND mythos was going to HAVE a spark, I feel like it'd be this goober.

Well, for starters no. Minsc is a guy that accidentally drops through a portal, gets turned into a statue for 300 years or runs after his hamster a lot. But he is not an active planeswalker. Nothing about him screams multiverse champion, but accidental hero. There are two wizards from Forgotten Realms that might qualify. Elminster and Mordenkainen. Elminster was canonically on earth looking for apprentices. I think Mordenkainen is a master wizard on Greyhawk AND the Forgotten Realms. And he is most definitely been seen on Ravenloft. But aside from old boring men in bathrobes, FR has actually canonically disabled powerful magic by an edict of the god of magic and the overgod.

Planeswalking by MTG standards is not "planeswalking" in D&D standards. That would most certainly be the kind of spells that Netheril (ancient arrogant hyper magic society) used to float their cities, and it is forbidden in the Realms. My head canon for this is, that planeswalkers know the FR universe exists but entering it they'll loose their spark, and they'll avoid it. Other than that, Ao and Mystra surpress any planeswalker spartk. If people get bored they just send them to Sigil to meet the Lady of Pain.

[Zombimode]

The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.

Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.

I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?

There are two ways about this:
1. Incorporating the Forgotten Realms setting into the MTG multiverse - and with that shoehorning concepts from the MTG lore into the Forgotten Realms. And yes, that absolutely is the Forgotten Realms setting bending over to accomodate the MTG concepts.
Under this view, Elminster is a planeswalker because he has the planeswalker spark.

2. Using the MTG game language to represent concepts and objects from the Forgotten Realms setting.
Under this view Elminster is represented as a Planeswalker card because the character is a powerfull wizard and has both the ability and the habit of traveling the planes. He is a planeswalker under the meaning of this term in the setting. It is a thematic fit to feature Elminster as a Planeswalker card.
Minsc on the other hand would not be called a planeswalker in this setting. In fact he has very little to do with planes and the walking thereof. Thus representing Minsc as a Planeswalker cards would be thematically disconnected.

I hope the difference is clear.

[Personification]

The easiest fix for that is to just say that all of the Forgotten Realm's cosmology is part of the same plane, like Kaldheim. Easy peasy. Sparks are very easy things to explain away since they are nominally quite rare. This isn't "bending over", it's just sliding in one single side thing.

Honestly given some of the canon planeswalkers out there, "goofy ranger with a magic hamster who ****s around having wacky adventures" is like, barely a blip on my radar Planeswalker wise. Remember, Planeswalkers aren't inherently cool and powerful and extreme heroes or anything; sometimes they're just people. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a kid who has lived in sand hell all his time and during a particular bad storm woke up in a big city. Sometimes a Planeswalker is a dragon who got anxiety. It happens.

I'll admit I don't know the difference between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms lore wise, but I'm pretty sure they're all like, together as a thing?

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are different planets. (Or, technically, they are different settings focused on different planets. The Forgotten Realms setting focuses on the world of Toril and the Greyhawk setting focuses on the world of Oerth.) Greyhawk was one of, if not the, first major campaign settings, so many of the major ancient historical legacy D&D characters like Mordenkainen and Tasha (many of whom are just the personal PCs of the creators) are from there, but the Forgotten Realms is the one they chose as the focus for "vanilla" fifth edition, so it has gotten much more press and popularity with the modern crowd, and it is also the one in which the Baldur's Gate video game series, most published adventures, and the upcoming movie are set, so it makes more sense to make the set there because of brand cohesion.

EDIT: And in the like hour it took me to write this three people returned an unblocked post to their hand and put posts that said the same thing, just shorter and easier to parse, onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.

In "vanilla" D&D, all settings, stylized in-universe as versions or sections of the material plane, are connected in some way and accessible to each other with strong enough magic (even if they have seemingly mutually exclusive cosmologies) and several characters, especially the aforementioned powerful legacy characters, which is how people in the Forgotten Realms know about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

These characters, including Elminster, who is from the Forgotten Realms but is in a similar space power-wise to the others, fit the image of a Planeswalker both in ability and in the old-walker image of them, but the mechanics are very different. I think that at the end of the day they decided that the multiversal mechanics of the properties of planeswalking and planeshifting were so incompatible that they could either have no planeswalkers or just make any character they wanted who had technically been to other planes a 'walker despite the lore implications and chose the latter. For some of them, like the Archmages, they went with something that felt tonally appropriate, but for others they just chose characters that were popular and/or fun. At the end of the day, the actual thing that differentiates the card type in MTG is the spark, which makes you not a creature and has specific lore meanings that aren't matched in D&D, so it is all moot.


As a total side note to that longer-than-intended essay, the ways that the two games treat planar physics creates a weird situation where the multiverse of Magic fits fine into D&D but the existence of D&D planes in MTG would break the lore, which is why they made it very clear that AFR didn't mean that the Forgotten Realms was a plane, but then they published a short (and kind of meh) D&D adventure where characters from the Forgotten Realms meet a Ravnican. This is also how they are making the MTG setting books work. When you play a game in the setting, you basically choose if you are in a D&D game or a D20 system MTG RPG system. If you choose the former, whatever plane you are on is in the D&D multiverse, which basically means the lore is the same except no sparks and great wheel cosmology is in play. If you choose the latter, you have to reflavor many spells and planar travel kind of breaks down a bit (but summons still work because they are either mana constructs or summoned from a plane's given pocket hell dimension like the Abyss or wherever all of the Innistrad demons come from. Honestly, demons don't entirely make sense in the MTG cosmology but everyone just sort of goes with it).

Also, which planeswalker is a dragon with anxiety? The only Dragonwalkers I can think of (except for Sarkhan, and he definitely doesn't count) are Ugin and Bolas, and they both sparked from existential brother betrayal, not anxiety. (Also also: "If I had a nickel for every time a planeswalker sparked while being buried alive, I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice." Same goes for "sparked out of pure joy at getting a small amount of positive reinforcement from one of the brainwashed gods of Amonkhet".)

[enderlord99]

What about it makes it difficult?

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was a bad idea.

[Personification]

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was a bad idea.

I agree. Luckily, so did they, which is why they didn't do it, they just sort of reimagined the characters with MTG mechanics.

[noob]

None of the "spark for summoning and multiverse travel" thing would be an issue if they inserted dnd in mtg before the spark thing started: back then even artefacts could allow universe travel and summoning.
Since time travel is possible in dnd you could just have a dnd character time travel to the past then go in mtg before the spark thing and thus justify the fact you can summon even modern dnd character without needing any dnd characters to be sparks in the modern mtg world because spark's summons are just reflection of memories and thus can be made without current dimensional access to the creature: you just need old enough people who met those dnd characters to be around and to have acquired sparks at some point after it became a thing.

[LaZodiac]

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are different planets. (Or, technically, they are different settings focused on different planets. The Forgotten Realms setting focuses on the world of Toril and the Greyhawk setting focuses on the world of Oerth.) Greyhawk was one of, if not the, first major campaign settings, so many of the major ancient historical legacy D&D characters like Mordenkainen and Tasha (many of whom are just the personal PCs of the creators) are from there, but the Forgotten Realms is the one they chose as the focus for "vanilla" fifth edition, so it has gotten much more press and popularity with the modern crowd, and it is also the one in which the Baldur's Gate video game series, most published adventures, and the upcoming movie are set, so it makes more sense to make the set there because of brand cohesion.

EDIT: And in the like hour it took me to write this three people returned an unblocked post to their hand and put posts that said the same thing, just shorter and easier to parse, onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.

In "vanilla" D&D, all settings, stylized in-universe as versions or sections of the material plane, are connected in some way and accessible to each other with strong enough magic (even if they have seemingly mutually exclusive cosmologies) and several characters, especially the aforementioned powerful legacy characters, which is how people in the Forgotten Realms know about Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

These characters, including Elminster, who is from the Forgotten Realms but is in a similar space power-wise to the others, fit the image of a Planeswalker both in ability and in the old-walker image of them, but the mechanics are very different. I think that at the end of the day they decided that the multiversal mechanics of the properties of planeswalking and planeshifting were so incompatible that they could either have no planeswalkers or just make any character they wanted who had technically been to other planes a 'walker despite the lore implications and chose the latter. For some of them, like the Archmages, they went with something that felt tonally appropriate, but for others they just chose characters that were popular and/or fun. At the end of the day, the actual thing that differentiates the card type in MTG is the spark, which makes you not a creature and has specific lore meanings that aren't matched in D&D, so it is all moot.


As a total side note to that longer-than-intended essay, the ways that the two games treat planar physics creates a weird situation where the multiverse of Magic fits fine into D&D but the existence of D&D planes in MTG would break the lore, which is why they made it very clear that AFR didn't mean that the Forgotten Realms was a plane, but then they published a short (and kind of meh) D&D adventure where characters from the Forgotten Realms meet a Ravnican. This is also how they are making the MTG setting books work. When you play a game in the setting, you basically choose if you are in a D&D game or a D20 system MTG RPG system. If you choose the former, whatever plane you are on is in the D&D multiverse, which basically means the lore is the same except no sparks and great wheel cosmology is in play. If you choose the latter, you have to reflavor many spells and planar travel kind of breaks down a bit (but summons still work because they are either mana constructs or summoned from a plane's given pocket hell dimension like the Abyss or wherever all of the Innistrad demons come from. Honestly, demons don't entirely make sense in the MTG cosmology but everyone just sort of goes with it).

Also, which planeswalker is a dragon with anxiety? The only Dragonwalkers I can think of (except for Sarkhan, and he definitely doesn't count) are Ugin and Bolas, and they both sparked from existential brother betrayal, not anxiety. (Also also: "If I had a nickel for every time a planeswalker sparked while being buried alive, I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice." Same goes for "sparked out of pure joy at getting a small amount of positive reinforcement from one of the brainwashed gods of Amonkhet".)

Thanks for the explanation!

Demons in MtG cosmology depend on the plane, as ever. Innistrad's live in an Abyss like hell and can come out if called, demons on Kaladesh are ear-worms that strike people like Dwarf Fortress crafting moods.

Was specifically thinking about Ugin (I don't know about you but I'd have anxiety over Bolas weaponizing his trauma to conqueror and slaughter millions). Though yeah Sarkhan definitely fits that bill too.

Hey now, Jackal Mom wasn't brainwashed when she affirmed Samut's faith!

I agree. Luckily, so did they, which is why they didn't do it, they just sort of reimagined the characters with MTG mechanics.

For what it's worth I do agree that it's better for the Forgotten Realms to not be part of the MtG multiverse! I just don't get what the big deal about it is; nothing as described feels out of place to me, and some of you seem pretty aggro about the mere thought of it. Sorry about that.

[Personification]

None of the "spark for summoning and multiverse travel" thing would be an issue if they inserted dnd in mtg before the spark thing started: back then even artefacts could allow universe travel and summoning.
Since time travel is possible in dnd you could just have a dnd character time travel to the past then go in mtg before the spark thing and thus justify the fact you can summon even modern dnd character without needing any dnd characters to be sparks in the modern mtg world because spark's summons are just reflection of memories and thus can be made without current dimensional access to the creature: you just need old enough people who met those dnd characters to be around and to have acquired sparks at some point after it became a thing.

Sparks always existed, they just used to give godlike power. The mending just nerfed sparks and closed all of the planar portals, so it took like 60 years for them to come back (in the form of the planar bridge). The issues with the cosmologies lining up are still there though. Even if you say that the Great Wheel is a Kaldheim/Shard of 12 Worlds situation, there are still issues. Earth (like our Earth) is definitely in D&D and definitely not in MTG. Magic works super differently, too, and there would definitely be Planeswalkers in D&D worlds (which would become godlike beings pre-mending) and visitors from other planes. If you want, you can headcanon what you like and run your D&D games whichever way you'd like, I certainly won't call badwrongfun, but as a practical unified lore solution for WotC, this doesn't work. Plus, WotC already made their decision, which is that they are separate continuities in official material, and announced it both out-of-universe and in-universe through the mechanics. All of the setting books are post mending and none of the AFR or CLB planeswalkers make sense as people who sparked, pre- or post-mending.

EDIT: No aggro is intended, I am just heavily invested in the lore and like to dig into it in discussion. I didn't construe any confusion or disagreement as an insult to me and no insult to anyone (except Urza) is intended in anything I say. I don't know if you were referring to me, but if you were I apologize for giving you that impression. In text, enthusiasm sometimes comes across as anger.

[Zombimode]

For what it's worth I do agree that it's better for the Forgotten Realms to not be part of the MtG multiverse! I just don't get what the big deal about it is; nothing as described feels out of place to me, and some of you seem pretty aggro about the mere thought of it. Sorry about that.

If I came about as aggro, I'm sorry. That definitely doesn't match how I actually feel about this
Text is sometimes deceptive, I guess.

I think I'm just mildly annoyed how low-effort and lazy this set appears to me in regards of actually making use of the Forgotten Realms setting.
Instead we get scores of Greyhawk characters and Minsc as a planeswalker

[Personification]

If I came about as aggro, I'm sorry. That definitely doesn't match how I actually feel about this
Text is sometimes deceptive, I guess.

I think I'm just mildly annoyed how low-effort and lazy this set appears to me in regards of actually making use of the Forgotten Realms setting.
Instead we get scores of Greyhawk characters and Minsc as a planeswalker

Scores? We got Tasha and I think that's it, and they gave Minsc a planeswalker card probably because they had a good design for one and it makes no mechanical difference anyway. Plus, they hit a ton of good D&D stuff, as I understand it got nearly every PC from the video games, and made what, I have been told, is a great draft environment.

[NeoVid]

There are two wizards from Forgotten Realms that might qualify. Elminster and Mordenkainen. Elminster was canonically on earth looking for apprentices. I think Mordenkainen is a master wizard on Greyhawk AND the Forgotten Realms. And he is most definitely been seen on Ravenloft. But aside from old boring men in bathrobes, FR has actually canonically disabled powerful magic by an edict of the god of magic and the overgod.

Reading this reminded me that Halaster Blackcloak was higher level than Elminster, despite not having the advantage of being an author avatar. And made me realize that Halaster would have been a freaking awesome and horrifying character to make into a canonical Planeswalker.

Come to think of it, if Undermountain isn't a legendary land, I'll be sad for a while.