MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed

[Shining Wrath]

Its absolutely possible that the MITD could leave a different strength trail from Xykon, but that would require him to have fewer than 11 hit dice, which seems improbable for a creature of his power. Outsiders (and clerics of evil deities, curiously*) have the easiest time getting into the different strength thresholds.


Youre right in that we technically dont know for certain at the moment, but I suspect that in a few pages we will, one way or the other. Redcloak is about to check for the auras by the doors, so if the MITD leaves a trail, Redcloak will pick it up going to the doors without entering. I doubt he would just leave something like that, since only he, Xykon and potentially the MITD should be strong enough to leave such a trail and he's actively trying to solve this mystery.

*This would also make using Detect Evil to track Xykon's presence in a room difficult for Redcloak, but presumably he just only checks every monday or something, since he doesnt need to track his own whereabouts.

Things are further complicated by Rich not adhering strictly to 3.5 rules. We've already seen, e.g., Teleport working without the caster touching the person traveling. Rich could decree that in Stickverse since MitD is not evil, he leaves no trail, even if he's a member of an always-evil no-exceptions-except-MitD outsider species. He could be a demon lord, but somehow not evil, and Rich could decree that he therefore leaves no trail.

Conversely, we may see Redcloak stop and say "Wait, why don't you leave a trail?" when looking at MitD. But that opens the question, again, of "Does Redcloak know as much about MitD as he believes he knows?", the answer to which is almost certainly "No, because he's an arrogant SOB'.

[Keltest]

Things are further complicated by Rich not adhering strictly to 3.5 rules. We've already seen, e.g., Teleport working without the caster touching the person traveling. Rich could decree that in Stickverse since MitD is not evil, he leaves no trail, even if he's a member of an always-evil no-exceptions-except-MitD outsider species. He could be a demon lord, but somehow not evil, and Rich could decree that he therefore leaves no trail.

Conversely, we may see Redcloak stop and say "Wait, why don't you leave a trail?" when looking at MitD. But that opens the question, again, of "Does Redcloak know as much about MitD as he believes he knows?", the answer to which is almost certainly "No, because he's an arrogant SOB'.

Rich has generally been pretty consistent with "outsiders dont have free will the way mortals do", but even if thats the case, I feel like it would be cheating at that point to make him a big strong demon type thing and not leave an aura because his alignment changed. Evil outsiders leave trails because theyre made of evil, not because of their alignment as such, which is why they get their own special category on the table. Ditto undead, and we know he's adhering to that rule.

[hamishspence]

Evil outsiders leave trails because theyre made of evil, not because of their alignment as such, which is why they get their own special category on the table.

Because the table says "evil outsider" not "outsider with Evil subtype", then, as written, any outsider, regardless of their subtype, will have an exceptionally strong aura for their Hit Dice.

So, an evil Celestial, an evil PC aasimar, an evil Ravid (normally-neutral Outsider from Positive Energy Plane) and so on - all will radiate Evil as powerfully as a Fiend with the same number of Hit Dice.

Think of it as "outsiders are leakier than ordinary beings"

[Shining Wrath]

Because the table says "evil outsider" not "outsider with Evil subtype", then, as written, any outsider, regardless of their subtype, will have an exceptionally strong aura for their Hit Dice.

So, an evil Celestial, an evil PC aasimar, an evil Ravid (normally-neutral Outsider from Positive Energy Plane) and so on - all will radiate Evil as powerfully as a Fiend with the same number of Hit Dice.

Think of it as "outsiders are leakier than ordinary beings"

Again, assuming that Rich is adhering strictly to the table, and not using "Xykon is a lich and he's also a sociopathic mass murderer who enjoys torturing paladins for fun, that's why he reads so strongly to Detect Evil" Ootsverse rules.

Probably MitD is not an fiend or Uvuudaum, but not definitively.

[Keltest]

Again, assuming that Rich is adhering strictly to the table, and not using "Xykon is a lich and he's also a sociopathic mass murderer who enjoys torturing paladins for fun, that's why he reads so strongly to Detect Evil" Ootsverse rules.

Probably MitD is not an fiend or Uvuudaum, but not definitively.

Absent some explicit confirmation that he isnt, assuming that Rich ISNT following the rules we have access to is the way to madness. We need to make some assumptions, somewhere, or we cant narrow anything down.

[catagent101]

I don't think the argument that MitD could have a Xykon-style aura due to potentially being an outsider holds water. If this was a feature of overwhelming auras in the OotS-verse Redcloak would leave such an aura (11th level or higher cleric of an evil deity) and yet the comic seems to be treat this as special Xykon-only thing (pinging higher on detect alignment spells is also like a cleric class feature so I don't think we can say Rich forgot).

[hamishspence]

Powerful Undead and Evil Outsiders (but not Evil Clerics/Clerics of Evil Deities) are specifically called out has having unusual effects on the environment if they are present for a long period of time, in BoVD (Lasting Evil: result - among other things, a faint evil aura is conveyed to the location in question).

So there's a hint there that, aura or no aura, undead are more inherently "environment-affecting" than evil clerics are.

[Peelee]

Powerful Undead and Evil Outsiders (but not Evil Clerics/Clerics of Evil Deities) are specifically called out has having unusual effects on the environment if they are present for a long period of time, in BoVD (Lasting Evil: result - among other things, a faint evil aura is conveyed to the location in question).

So there's a hint there that, aura or no aura, undead are more inherently "environment-affecting" than evil clerics are.

Have they tried towing them outside the environment?

[Ruck]

Again, assuming that Rich is adhering strictly to the table, and not using "Xykon is a lich and he's also a sociopathic mass murderer who enjoys torturing paladins for fun, that's why he reads so strongly to Detect Evil" Ootsverse rules.

Yeah, I was going to say something like this. We don't actually know why Xykon radiates so much Evil; we just know that he does. We can speculate why, but we can't come to any definite answers about whether anyone else "should."

(Not that I think MitD is some kind of Evil Outsider. I think he'd be more clearly Evil if that were the case. Doesn't seem to fit his character. Although I also don't think any of the specific species of Evil Outsider are good fits.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have they tried towing them outside the environment?

They did, but the front fell off. Which is really unusual. Seems a wave hit it.

GW

[Peelee]

They did, but the front fell off. Which is really unusual. Seems a wave hit it.

GW

At sea? Chance in a million!

[Throknor]

But not the caves. RC can be pretty sure that any cave MitD has been in, so has Xykon. In fact, all it would take is one day in which they left MitD behind for whatever reason to make Xykon tracking the only useful method, even if MitD leaves trace of its own.

GW

This actually ties to a thought I had when this was posted. Basically what if it occurs to the MITD (or Redcloak told him before or who knows how) that he leaves a similar trail he could mess with the new search by walking into random caves - possibly ones he remembers marking as decoys.

I'm not claiming it as likely, merely possible. Throw in that the second spell that Redcloak was going to mention might have related to telling the difference and it could lead to a direct confrontation that the Order can jump into.

I admit I'm out there a little on this one. But if it happens I called it.

[Shining Wrath]

This actually ties to a thought I had when this was posted. Basically what if it occurs to the MITD (or Redcloak told him before or who knows how) that he leaves a similar trail he could mess with the new search by walking into random caves - possibly ones he remembers marking as decoys.

I'm not claiming it as likely, merely possible. Throw in that the second spell that Redcloak was going to mention might have related to telling the difference and it could lead to a direct confrontation that the Order can jump into.

I admit I'm out there a little on this one. But if it happens I called it.

Going further out on this limb: MitD has a psychic power, which Redcloak doesn't understand, which would allow him to create a Xykon-ish trail. We know he can do stuff that's magical; some variant of Nystul's Magic Aura might work.

[Crusher]

They did, but the front fell off. Which is really unusual. Seems a wave hit it.

GW

"What's the minimum crew?"

"Well, one, I suppose."

[Laurentio III]

Hello folks, long time no writing.
And, I should not even been here, and I wont be able to stay (long boring story, my fault), so I'll be brief.

I want to declare my vote for:
First: Loculi (fitting, and interesting folk)
Second: Protean (I think it's a lazy choice even storywise, and I don't buy the "eyes are just incidentally always same level because no reason", but as many said before, a Protean always covers all bases)
Third: amnesiac Proteus, from the Marvel comics. Just because I don't have a third candidate, but not going to waste a vote, and I fancy the character.

Necessary deeds solved, I'd like to contribute the least.
• I side with the need for MITD to be able to read mind, as it shows to be often aware on things that others knows, but it shouldn't. The alternative would be for it to be able to clairvoyance at will (unlikely).
• Regarding THE ESCAPE, Teleport just doesn't cut. There is no way someone can be teleported without the caster or with a dimensional locked one. While the author is not forced to follow the game rules, this would be a major issue in a "guess game", analogue to cheating. [By the way, Rich, sorry for that time. I apologize, sincerely] All considered, this detail has been discussed for months and it would be so much easy for the author to lampshade it or to confutate. I put my 2 gold pieces on "Wish" or analogue effect.
• Last, I disagree with the opinion about Redcloak being wrong about MITD stats and identity. He is a meticolous researcher and while prone to err, he would have checked intensively. I assume (and it's just my opinion) that his constant contempt with MITD is not because he deemed it worthless, but because it's not immediately useful for his goal, and the endgame is near. Redcloak is a troubled ma... goblin.

So... not very brief, in the end. Sorry.
Thanks for the continuos entertainment. I care for everyone of you.

Laurentio

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Regarding THE ESCAPE, Teleport just doesn't cut. There is no way someone can be teleported without the caster or with a dimensional locked one.

This is the relevant text of Dimensional Anchor:

A green ray springs from your outstretched hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like or psionic abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.

Emphasis mine. The spell blocks travel, not casting, of those forms of transport. You can still cast teleport, create gates, etc. you just don't get to go along.

GW

[Laurentio III]

This is the relevant text of Dimensional Anchor:
Emphasis mine. The spell blocks travel, not casting, of those forms of transport. You can still cast teleport, create gates, etc. you just don't get to go along.
GW

Yes, but these spells (less "gate", "maze" and "Plane shift", but it's not the issue) are "self" centered. Others have to be carried by you. If you don't move, they can't move. All texts are clear about it.
It's not casual. D&D system doesn't allows to easily teleport foes inside vulcanos, because it would be lazy and overpowered. Not that a crafty player couldn't arrange it, with some preparation time. But the spells, themselves, don't offer you the option as a give away.
Mind, there are workaround the rules, but the spirit of the rule is "no telefrag people easily".
All basic teleportation spells will move "YOU WITH someone", not "just someone".
Plus, they require the carried creature to be willing. It's really a stretch to consider willing a person who doesn't even know it's going be targeted by a spell.
A Teleportation Circle would work, but then Xykon should have been teleported, too. And the casting time is ten minutes.

To reinforce what is essentially my opinion: teleporting others with a instant spell without moving yourself is actively discouraged by the rules, and very uncommon expect as plot devices. Playing such a card on the reader would unbalance the "guessing game" heavily. I regard Rich to have considered the issue before writing a pivotal event.

Plus, the location. If MITD is a mind reader, it could know the right place to drop O-chun. But it would require it to consciously retain a lot of information about him beforehand, or to be able to search for a specific, not-objective information at the drop of the hat. It's really more easy to accept that O-Chul himself subconsciously determinated the target. Or, that it's plot-determinated (a lucky shot). And I don't fancy the latter, smells like a Deus ex Machina.

[ff7hero]

Have we ever seen a ray or other projectile hit an unintended target after missing?

The Dimensional Anchor is actually necessary for my preferred guess (Slaad), but it just doesn't sit well with me. Usually when things miss in DnD (editions I'm familiar with anyway), they miss. They don't continue traveling and strike other targets (even putting aside the substantial cover the MitD was behind when the Dimensional Anchor was fired).

If it's happened elsewhere in the comic, I'm all for it, but I have more respect for Rich than to be able to accept "the reason the Escape scene works was because this thing that both never happens elsewhere and never happens in the source/inspirational material happened out of panel."

[Keltest]

Have we ever seen a ray or other projectile hit an unintended target after missing?

The Dimensional Anchor is actually necessary for my preferred guess (Slaad), but it just doesn't sit well with me. Usually when things miss in DnD (editions I'm familiar with anyway), they miss. They don't continue traveling and strike other targets (even putting aside the substantial cover the MitD was behind when the Dimensional Anchor was fired).

If it's happened elsewhere in the comic, I'm all for it, but I have more respect for Rich than to be able to accept "the reason the Escape scene works was because this thing that both never happens elsewhere and never happens in the source/inspirational material happened out of panel."

Thats about where I sit as well. I honestly cant even understand how it got accepted as an explanation given how completely inconsistent it is with everything else, in universe and out.

[Laurentio III]

Thats about where I sit as well. I honestly cant even understand how it got accepted as an explanation given how completely inconsistent it is with everything else, in universe and out.

I agree.
• Missed spells don't connect with unwanted targets;
• • Should it happen, MITD is exceptionally covered by a full cage. The chance of the ray to randomly get inside the small windows are mind-boggling. (Sure, still possible if plot relevant)

• Anchored caster can't teleport other creatures with a "self" spell;
• • Teleporting require willingness from other creatures, and O-Chul and V were not in the condition to even know they were going to be teleported. (Again, plot necessity overrules this requisite)

[Qwertystop]

Have we ever seen a ray or other projectile hit an unintended target after missing?

The Dimensional Anchor is actually necessary for my preferred guess (Slaad), but it just doesn't sit well with me. Usually when things miss in DnD (editions I'm familiar with anyway), they miss. They don't continue traveling and strike other targets (even putting aside the substantial cover the MitD was behind when the Dimensional Anchor was fired).

If it's happened elsewhere in the comic, I'm all for it, but I have more respect for Rich than to be able to accept "the reason the Escape scene works was because this thing that both never happens elsewhere and never happens in the source/inspirational material happened out of panel."

I'm pretty sure it happened with an arrow at some point?

[InvisibleBison]

I'm pretty sure it happened with an arrow at some point?

It did, here - the arrow is deflected by V's Protection from Arrows spell, which would only have triggered if the arrow had hit them.

[Shining Wrath]

Given how many times we're shown that Redcloak is overconfident and thinks he's smarter than he is and thinks he knows more than he does - in fact, I'd say it's one of his defining traits - it would actually be out of character for him to be precisely correct about anything important to the story. Redcloak is going to be "brought down" in some sense by his arrogance, and also his ruthlessness (two faults for the price of one). We know he believes MitD to be stupid; that's wrong. It appears he doesn't think MitD is capable of significant magic; that is also wrong.

Since MitD is an unusual member of his species per the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, it may be that Redcloak:

1. is wrong about the species, or
2. he knows the correct species but doesn't think MitD is capable of what the books say his species can do, or
3. MitD can do things members of his species normally can't do, because he's unusual.

I think Redcloak's character arc will require him to be wrong about MitD, probably in one of ways just listed.

[Peelee]

Given how many times we're shown that Redcloak is overconfident and thinks he's smarter than he is and thinks he knows more than he does - in fact, I'd say it's one of his defining traits - it would actually be out of character for him to be precisely correct about anything important to the story.

That doesn't really track at all. Can you give examples? He has taken Azure City, he has removed Tuskiko without retribution, he has held onto the phylactery, all of these have had major repurcussions in the story and he has not foiled himself by thinking he's smarter than he is. Hell, the only time I think he was actually set back by that hurdle was when he figured O-Chul must have some sort of magic that helped block info on the other Gates.

[Keltest]

That doesn't really track at all. Can you give examples? He has taken Azure City, he has removed Tuskiko without retribution, he has held onto the phylactery, all of these have had major repurcussions in the story and he has not foiled himself by thinking he's smarter than he is. Hell, the only time I think he was actually set back by that hurdle was when he figured O-Chul must have some sort of magic that helped block info on the other Gates.

Indeed. Redcloak has always been very academically correct. Its only when it comes to understanding people that he seems to run into any hurdles.

[Laurentio III]

Hell, the only time I think he was actually set back by that hurdle was when he figured O-Chul must have some sort of magic that helped block info on the other Gates.

That is a major one, because come on, it was stupid. Redcloak angle was prejudice, there.
The main fault in Redcloak isn't being stupid - he is not - but that he can't let himself being wrong.
Start of the Darkness is all about Redcloak refusing to be wrong, to the point of self-inflicted pain.
But, honestly, I don't see him refusing to admin a trivial error like identifying a monster.

Out of topic, re-reading SotD I noticed that two human-sized zombie are enough to carry MITD and its cage. Now zombies are STR+2. Let's assume they where in life a little stronger that base human, around 12? It would sums to 420 lbs, or 190 Kgs.
Redcloak lifting the same cage is less an issue, as he never carried it. Just pushed over a cart, an easier feat.

I'm pretty sure it happened with an arrow at some point?

Stray arrows are a thing. In the same arc, we have a mob killed by a stray head. Twice.
And we have a person (Roy) intercepting arrows with his body, another thing we never see in regards of spells.
"Ranged touch" spells are not physical items, so could or could not go stray based on DM, but convention is they don't.

[Peelee]

That is a major one, because come on, it was stupid. Redcloak angle was prejudice, there.
The main fault in Redcloak isn't being stupid - he is not - but that he can't let himself being wrong.

Sure he can. He admits he was wrong right here. And admits he had previously been wrong here. There may be more, those were just off the top of my head.

Redcloak can't admit that he was wrong about the Plan and his specific way of going about it. That's it.

And the main point I was making anyway is there's no reason to expect that he is wrong about MitD to start with, though I agree with you that he'd have no issue admitting to being wrong on that if he was.

[Shining Wrath]

• We just saw Redcloak be overconfidently wrong about why there were monsters behind a door with an X on it.
• We have seen Redcloak persistently treat MitD as stupid, and we know better.
• He's wrong about the Gate being behind a door at all - admittedly, Serini set everyone in the world up on that.
• He's wrong about the Gate above Azure City being something the goblins can ignore.
• His deity is in mortal peril (you should pardon the expression) of starvation, and he won't admit it.

That's just a start. Of course, you already mentioned the Plan being unworkable.

[Laurentio III]

• We just saw Redcloak be overconfidently wrong about why there were monsters behind a door with an X on it.
• We have seen Redcloak persistently treat MitD as stupid, and we know better.
• He's wrong about the Gate being behind a door at all - admittedly, Serini set everyone in the world up on that.
• He's wrong about the Gate above Azure City being something the goblins can ignore.
• His deity is in mortal peril (you should pardon the expression) of starvation, and he won't admit it.

That's just a start. Of course, you already mentioned the Plan being unworkable.

Everyone of this denote a lack of smartness or intuition, different tracts from being able to identify a creature you can see in front of you.
As Keltest said, Redcloak is usually "accademically right". Or book-smart.

Besides, let's be honest: we readers have the unfair advantage of knowing much more that the characters. I personally would have fallen into most of the errors you posted.

[Keltest]

I think the important question that should be answered here is, has Redcloak ever been directly wrong about something he could have done research on and studied? He's been plenty fallible whenever it comes to making guesses, even educated ones, about unknown situations. If he can't verify his assumptions for whatever reason, he's as unreliable as anybody. But whenever he can read about something in a book, he's always been shown as correct, even authoritative.