New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[russdm]

So I have watched all the way to the Episode "Family". I will get the reviews written up and then posted. A day or so. Have had some home stuff going on, and so I have not had a chance to write anything up

[russdm]

Season 3 Episode 24
menage a troi
Stardate: 43930.7

[Plot]
the crew are at Betazed, for some trade thing. the Ferengi are there. so is Lwaxana. the ferengi leader, DaiMon Tog, takes a liking to her. so he decides to kidnap her and deanna and Riker after two of them go to Betazed.

wesley is preparing to leave the ship to go to starfleet academy. he misses the opportunity to help out the crew

[Rating]
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.

{Episode Commentary}

This episode was essentially good. watching picard quote Shakespeare is always good

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Next Episode -

Trackers)
Starfleet is run by Morons: 1
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 2 (mind meld with Sarek)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 8
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 11 (the guy who played Neelix)
Rank of Miles:
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

Season 3 Episode 25
transfigurations
Stardate: 43957.2

[Plot]
the crew are on some assignment. geordi is trying to fix his love life. the crew discover a pod. it is not filled with trash and a chicken or turkey. kudos if you get the reference. they find a guy inside

geordi goes on a date. something happened with the pod guy

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
this is not a great episode because I never managed to care about dr crusher and her weird thing with pod guy. then I could just not find the interest in what it was about.

the stuff with geordi actually works and is more interesting than the rest.

i don't think that the writers have yet managed to make dr crusher interesting enough to me to care about her and plots that relate to her

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Next Episode - that episode

Trackers)
Starfleet is run by Morons: 1
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 2 (mind meld with Sarek)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 8
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 11 ()
Rank of Miles:
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

Season 3 last episode and first of season 4
you know what one
Stardate: ?

[Plot]
the borg two parter

[Rating]


{Episode Commentary}
i don't like the borg and this is the start of the "only way to beat them is to cheat" problem. if the ferengi couldn't come across as believable replacements, then the borg go to far into the Villain Sue area. they don't work and then they got turned into a weird hive mind and then cyborg zombie plague. the problem really stems from the First Contact movie and just keeps getting worse.

frankly, you could see the entire rest of the franchise from this point being Picard's mind trying to hide itself as borg picard goes around conquering the alpha quadrant.

the borg essentially break the series because they can just send another cube and another until it works. there is no reason for having gone further and they should have just ended the series and franchise at this point. the writers wrote themselves into a black hole by creating the borg in the first place. they only can work in a few episodes at most before they start becoming silly.

i prefer to see the Klingons, the Romulans, and the Cardassians as the adversaries for the Federation because you can tell believable stories of the good guys winning without cheating and have the good guys lose with being able to tell more stories. with the borg, if they win then it is all over. plus those three are not Villain Sues

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Next Episode - Family

Trackers)
Starfleet is run by Morons: 1
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 3 (these episodes)
Picard's Gifts: 2 (mind meld with Sarek)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 8
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 11 ()
Rank of Miles:
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly not sure why I came back to this thread after our earlier difference of opinion, morbid curiosity I suppose. But you really don't have anything to say about "Family", possibly one of the most humanistic episodes of the entire series? An entire episode that's focused on various characters trying to deal with their past misfortunes (Picard and his immediate post-traumatic Borg issues, Worf with his human parents dealing with being a dishonored Klingon, and Wesley receiving a letter his father wrote when he was a baby)?

This may not be an amazing episode of sci-fi, but it's the most human and relatable episode of Star Trek ever. And you have nothing to say about it at all???

[GloatingSwine]

the borg essentially break the series because they can just send another cube and another until it works.

But then early on that's all they do do. They really are space zombies, for all their vaunted adaptation they actually have all the strategic innovation of a lettuce. Which means they're a good foil for the TNG era Federation which was all about innovative solutions. The Borg can't be beaten the same way twice, but that's okay because the Federation thought of three other things they wish they'd tried last time.

[russdm]

But you really don't have anything to say about "Family", possibly one of the most humanistic episodes of the entire series? An entire episode that's focused on various characters trying to deal with their past misfortunes (Picard and his immediate post-traumatic Borg issues, Worf with his human parents dealing with being a dishonored Klingon, and Wesley receiving a letter his father wrote when he was a baby)?

This may not be an amazing episode of sci-fi, but it's the most human and relatable episode of Star Trek ever. And you have nothing to say about it at all???

To be honest, I have not gotten to this episode yet. It is the next one for watching. I think that it is probably one of the very best episodes in the series. A real Hidden Gem. It happens to be probably one of the best results of the last two episodes - Best of Both Worlds. Even if later retcon events damped the impact of Picard's feelings in the episode

But then early on that's all they do do. They really are space zombies, for all their vaunted adaptation they actually have all the strategic innovation of a lettuce. Which means they're a good foil for the TNG era Federation which was all about innovative solutions. The Borg can't be beaten the same way twice, but that's okay because the Federation thought of three other things they wish they'd tried last time.

As long as the Borg had stayed in the TNG Series, they worked, well somewhat. But then you got First Contact and then Voyager, and they just run away off. The borg suffered from villain decay.

The other issue is simply that they got presented as really powerful villains that could simply defeat everybody if they tried ever. They go just as far as the Ferengi do when the Ferengi were being attempted as villains but in the entirely opposite direction of where the Ferengi ended up.

[Gnoman]

The way the Borg are initially presented is fine - the first encounter is way outside Federation space thanks to the godlike Q, who shoves the Enterprise at it as a warning that humanity is Not Ready. Then you get one cube deciding to investigate this new race and eventually carrying out Wolf 359. That's the last organized contact in TNG.

The time between the two contacts is surprisingly close to the amount of time it would have taken the Enterprise to return under her own power from where Q had thrown them.

This makes constructing a plausible chain of events pretty easy - Q threw them at a far-flung Borg ship, that ship goes on a mission to understand this strange encounter, finds a massive interstellar nation in need of assimilation and attempts to carry it out. Even integrating First Contact into this narrative is pretty easy - the far-off Collective classified the Federation as a moderate threat because it was able to destroy one Cube, so a second Cube was sent as a decapitation strike.

It is really Voyager that is responsible for the degradation of the Borg as a threat.

[Ionathus]

the borg essentially break the series because they can just send another cube and another until it works. there is no reason for having gone further and they should have just ended the series and franchise at this point. the writers wrote themselves into a black hole by creating the borg in the first place. they only can work in a few episodes at most before they start becoming silly.

i prefer to see the Klingons, the Romulans, and the Cardassians as the adversaries for the Federation because you can tell believable stories of the good guys winning without cheating and have the good guys lose with being able to tell more stories. with the borg, if they win then it is all over. plus those three are not Villain Sues

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

I disagree strongly - sure, I found the Cardassians more interesting as adversaries, but I had no objections to the Borg. They're truly, utterly alien, not just in the "rubber forehead" way, and they think and act totally different from all the other humanoid species. That makes them interesting.

Like someone else said, them being "space zombies" makes for a very interesting dynamic: they have absolutely no capacity to think creatively, so you know they will never outflank or outmaneuver you, but also you'll never win with the same trick twice. They always adapt. They will eventually overrun you if you rely on a few clever tricks instead of thinking big-picture. That makes them interesting as villains, especially as a far-off background threat.

You're making a lot of arguments about how the Borg "break the series" but you're basing those arguments on some heavy assumptions. Why don't the Borg just keep sending cubes? Well, maybe they do, and space is big. Mind-bogglingly big. It takes awhile. Or maybe they're busy conquering other worlds and only can afford a few ships for Federation space. Remember, they don't think emotionally or creatively. They don't see "conquest" as a single glorious battle like the Klingons do.

"You will be assimilated" is a passive sentence, it's a statement of fact, it's an inevitability. It's not a threat of overwhelming destruction tomorrow. It's a foreboding promise that, eventually, the Borg will win. That threat hangs in the background, and what matters most is what our heroes do in the meantime to prepare for it.

[Bohandas]

Regarding the Borg, I find them much more plausible and understandable having recently read The Selfish Gene. They seem like a plausible far future evolution of what Dawkins was saying about parasitic memes

Of course, more not-so-humanoid aliens showed up on the Animated Series, including a three-legged helmsman.

Technically shouldn't we be calling it "The Original Animated Series" at this point?

[russdm]

It is really Voyager that is responsible for the degradation of the Borg as a threat.

this is probably one of the problems that I have with them, that makes me annoyed about them and then Traitor Janeway's actions in regards to them.

another problem is that I despise zombie plague genres. I have played Diablo and D&D and Doom; so I don't see the zombie plague threats in all of its genre seriously. Feel that it makes a mockery of the military always and I have family members who served. both of my grandfathers served in the second world war (one was going to be deployed as part of the invasion of the Japanese islands); my uncle on my dad's side flew helicopters in Vietnam and got some medals; my brother did two tours in Iraq; so I have some questioning about the military is portrayed

then there has been the various creepy dreams and nightmares that I have had in relation to them. then there is the times that I see them hiding in the metal lamp fixtures. the times that I think that I hear them or feel/sense their presence at home when other family members are home or it is just me at home. like I am the only home but it doesn't feel like I am the only one home.

it is like what happens with the aliens in Doctor Who that you see and forget are there. the ones that gave the command that got them all killed. just with the Borg -- always lurking at the edge of reality, always at the edges of my vision/sight

also the Darkseed games on LpArchive have parts with the same Giger looks as the Borg. Plus there is the Borg pale sickly green color of fog and light they have, which I associate with Evil some or being vile

the green light thing actually appears in several Voyager episodes and has close tones to the Matrix code green

yeah my relationship with the Borg is....complicated. not sure if being high functioning autism has anything to do with it

oh, and Romulans have a similar green associated with them

[KillianHawkeye]

That's why I like Klingon ships the best. They're green on the outside but red on the inside.

Like watermelons.

[Morgaln]

I always found the borg boring, simpe because of what they are and how they act. They're not really villains. They are more like a force of nature or natural catastrophe. You can try to fight them, you can try to outrun them, but there's no deeper interaction possible. There's only so many stories you can write about that until you necessarily have to repeat yourself (or you change that and get the mess Voyager made). This is of course true for pretty much all depiction of zombies. The really interesting stories will invariably involve conflict with other people, not just with the zombies.

The Borg do embody a kind of body horror, which can be used to some effect, but even that got outclassed once Voyager introduced the Vidiians. Their callous harvesting of body parts is far more chilling than what the Borg do.

[GloatingSwine]

TNG especially has stories about space weather being the problem all the time though. The Borg are just weather that walks around a bit.

[Rodin]

I often see people say they don’t like zombies, therefore they don’t like the Borg. This baffles me, because the Borg are fundamentally different than zombies. They don’t use the same tropes, and the stories told with them aren’t the same. A common complaint with zombies is that they’re unrealistic - they’re too dumb to be a real threat, they’re too slow, they would die from lack of food, etc etc. Borg don’t have any of these problems apart from being slow, and the only time this really impacts the plot in TNG is in First Contact.

I get why some people find the Borg boring and how difficult it is to tell good stories with them, but their resemblance to space zombies is superficial at best.

[KillianHawkeye]

TNG especially has stories about space weather being the problem all the time though. The Borg are just weather that walks around a bit.

Weather that threatens you first, lol.

[Ionathus]

That's why I like Klingon ships the best. They're green on the outside but red on the inside.

Like watermelons.

Dammit I'm never gonna unsee this.

[Bohandas]

I often see people say they don’t like zombies, therefore they don’t like the Borg. This baffles me, because the Borg are fundamentally different than zombies. They don’t use the same tropes, and the stories told with them aren’t the same. A common complaint with zombies is that they’re unrealistic - they’re too dumb to be a real threat, they’re too slow, they would die from lack of food, etc etc. Borg don’t have any of these problems apart from being slow, and the only time this really impacts the plot in TNG is in First Contact.

They're more-or-less identical, they're functionally mindless except on a large scale strategic level, and if you get attacked by one you turn into one. That sounds like a zombie.

Granted, the large scale strategic intelligence and on the spot buffing against whatever they happen to currently be facing marks them as a specific type of zombie. Specifically, the borg are fantasy style zombies, of the sort that might form the army of an evil witch or necromancer

[Rodin]

They're more-or-less identical, they're functionally mindless except on a large scale strategic level, and if you get attacked by one you turn into one. That sounds like a zombie.

Granted, the large scale strategic intelligence and on the spot buffing against whatever they happen to currently be facing marks them as a specific type of zombie. Specifically, the borg are fantasy style zombies, of the sort that might form the army of an evil witch or necromancer

Except they're not mindless. An individual drone has no personality, but that's not the same thing as mindless. The first encounter with a Borg drone is when one teleports onto the Enterprise and starts hacking into the central computer.

Compare zombies, which function on a hunger -> eat impulse and little more. Large numbers of zombies are no smarter than a single zombie, and they certainly aren't outsmarting the humans in the story.

Your specific example of "undead army subservient to a necromancer" is no more following zombie tropes than the the Borg. Even though there are literal zombies involved the stories being told are entirely different.

The Borg aren't a threat because there are many of them overwhelming society with sheer numbers causing an apocalypse. They're a threat because a single one of their ships can wipe out an entire fleet. The assimilating is just a cherry on top, they would be no less threatening if they just wanted to exterminate all life.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Borg aren't a threat because there are many of them overwhelming society with sheer numbers causing an apocalypse. They're a threat because a single one of their ships can wipe out an entire fleet. The assimilating is just a cherry on top, they would be no less threatening if they just wanted to exterminate all life.

Except in addition to this, the Borg also get stronger the more you fight them. If you shoot them, they stop being vulnerable to getting shot. If they beat you, they improve their own technology and reinforce their ranks with your own people. If you beat them, but even a couple manage to survive, they quickly rebuild and become a threat again, so you can't actually win unless you take them all out at once.

[DigoDragon]

I always found the borg boring, simpe because of what they are and how they act. They're not really villains. They are more like a force of nature or natural catastrophe.

That's what I liked about the early Borg. They start off almost like an Outside Context problem and get dangerously close to destroying the Federation twice (First Contact is my favorite Next Gen movie). I do agree that the concept can only get you so far before it becomes old hat, and in my opinion it should have been resolved when the story arc with Lore was completed.

But the Borg have definitely become a staple Trek antagonist, not only showing up in Voyager but also Lower Decks, Picard, and Prodigy.

[KillianHawkeye]

But the Borg have definitely become a staple Trek antagonist, not only showing up in Voyager but also Lower Decks, Picard, and Prodigy.

Don't forget Enterprise!

[DigoDragon]

Don't forget Enterprise!

Oh yeah! Thanks for the reminder... I think. XD

[russdm]

Season 4 Episode 2
Family
Stardate: 44012.3

[Plot]
so the ship is docked while getting repairs. during the time, Jean luc goes on shore leave while Worf gets a visit from his parents and Wesley looks at a message

we meet jean luc's family and see the picard vineyard. we learn about jean luc's home life. there is a project that he has an interest in and he interacts with family

wesley watches the message and Dr. Crusher talks with troi

Worf's parents visit him and get a tour. plus they spend time with several people on the ship.

[Rating]
Hidden Gem
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

{Episode Commentary}
so this is a really great episode because it is amazing all round. you get to caring about everyone like jean luc's family and worf's parents. we learn a lot about them.

i like all of the family members that we have met

this episode is a pretty good start to the season

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Next Episode - Brothers

Trackers)
Starfleet is run by Morons: 1
The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 2
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 3 (these episodes)
Picard's Gifts: 2 (mind meld with Sarek)
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 9
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 11 ()
Rank of Miles:
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 2
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

[Gnoman]

One thing worth adding is that this is very much a reaction to the previous two-parter. Picard nearly suffered a fate worse than death while bearing at least some guilt at the destruction of half the fleet. Everyone on the Enterprise nearly died as well. The kind of reflection you see in this episode after that kind of trauma is pretty unusual.

[Velaryon]

One thing worth adding is that this is very much a reaction to the previous two-parter. Picard nearly suffered a fate worse than death while bearing at least some guilt at the destruction of half the fleet. Everyone on the Enterprise nearly died as well. The kind of reflection you see in this episode after that kind of trauma is pretty unusual.

I agree. In isolation, I'm not actually a big fan of this episode. I don't find Picard's family that interesting. But coming right off the heels of The Best of Both Worlds, it's a masterpiece in terms of watching Picard come to grips with the experiences he's been through. I think he recovers a little too quickly, but that can be put down to the episodic nature of the series. They do make reference back to the events several times, but if this were a modern show then Picard would probably show a lot more ill effects and possibly remain gone from the Enterprise for a very long time. But since the status quo has to be restored by the end of the hour, Picard processes his trauma and returns to being a captain almost immediately, and I think the story suffers a bit for it.

Anyway, this episode is in the weird position for me that I react very differently to it depending on whether or not I have just watched The Best of Both Worlds right before. As a standalone episode it doesn't do much for me, but as an epilogue to the previous episode I like it much more.

[DigoDragon]

I practically forgot what this episode was about other than Picard visiting home. What was Wesley's message about?

It does suffer a bit of its punch If you don't watch the two parter beforehand. I agree on that. I think that was the reason I never remember this episode as anything.

[KillianHawkeye]

I practically forgot what this episode was about other than Picard visiting home. What was Wesley's message about?

Wesley's father recorded a message for him before he was born. It was supposed to be the first of many messages, but he never got the chance for more.

Basically, he says that he wants Wesley to see what he was like when he was young (assuming that Wesley will mostly know him as an older, more mature version), and then he talks about how he feels to about to be a father and he hopes he'll do a good job, and how much love he already feels for unborn Wesley. Stuff like that.

It's a pretty moving scene for Wesley since it's basically the only interaction he ever gets with his dad.


Although it kind of makes me wonder if Wesley ever used his time/space traveler powers to actually meet his dad? I probably would...

[Ionathus]

it's a masterpiece in terms of watching Picard come to grips with the experiences he's been through. I think he recovers a little too quickly, but that can be put down to the episodic nature of the series. They do make reference back to the events several times, but if this were a modern show then Picard would probably show a lot more ill effects and possibly remain gone from the Enterprise for a very long time. But since the status quo has to be restored by the end of the hour, Picard processes his trauma and returns to being a captain almost immediately, and I think the story suffers a bit for it.

They could've done more with it, for sure. They wouldn't even need to make much of a change to the format: duty calls, after all, and maybe Picard chooses to swallow his trauma and soldier on back to The Enterprise. That's by no means a rarity for people in the real world, after all (some jobs don't offer paid bereavement leave in any form) so it could certainly resonate with the audience.

Seeing how quickly Picard breaks down in the vineyard, and how quickly he puts himself back together by the next episode, colored the rest of the series for me. Maybe it was just in my imagination, but it definitely kept me thinking "is Picard still hurting?" especially in tense moments even when he's being a stoic badass.

[Gnoman]

First Contact is largely about Picard's trauma from the incident still being there.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, Picard may do a good job putting himself back together, but he never actually gets over his assimilation by the Borg. It haunts him the rest of his life.

[DigoDragon]

Wesley's father recorded a message for him before he was born. It was supposed to be the first of many messages, but he never got the chance for more.

Ah, okay. Thanks for that.

Yeah, Picard may do a good job putting himself back together, but he never actually gets over his assimilation by the Borg. It haunts him the rest of his life.

Indeed. It is a pretty realistic depiction of PTSD, and Patrick has the acting chops to deliver.