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2024-03-20, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2024-03-20, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Agreed, but the situation provided is that the sword and church are already here. My opinion is that it's too late to do that sort of a retroactive change absent a more convincing reason (and it's my fault as the DM for failing to identify and act upon this oversight), but other tables will have their own tastes.
"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
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"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
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2024-03-20, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
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2024-03-21, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
But there is no intelligence deciding whether to hand out the negative level or not. It is just an item that does it. Maybe because whatever artficer developed the item property wanted to make sure no evil people take and misuse or hide/destroy the weapon, maybe it couldn't be prevented as a side effect as the "harm evil" property couldn't be contained in the blade. No matter, now it is just an item that gives negative levels to all evil weilders and is unable to look into specific situations.
Now a god could obviously take action. But that is basically up to the DM and not really worth discussing.
As for being evil, yes, per definition that basically requires to harm others for your benefit or desires. But there are RAW esceptions : If you really want an evil person who never did something the players find particularly objectionable, you could go with "use poison" or "cast spells with the evil tag". Someone who daily casts protection from good for the mind control protection is evil as is a fur hunter or rat catcher relying on poison.Last edited by Satinavian; 2024-03-21 at 02:18 AM.
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2024-03-21, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
IDK why there's an issue imagining a character who's evil but would still risk themselves to save others. You don't need to be evil in all aspects of your life to be evil!
For example, a character who's usually nice to everyone ... except that they're also a serial killer. Maybe they only kill, like, Dwarves in particular, and wouldn't dream of attacking a non-Dwarf unprovoked.
Or someone with a lot of spite and pride, who does things like kill someone for accidentally bumping into them. But then their response to this situation is - "These piss-ant undead think they can make me run?! They'll rue the day! I'm going to slay every single zombie or die trying!"
Or even someone who's generally ruthless, taking whatever actions put them ahead regardless of the consequences to others. But in this situation, they calculate no chance of escape even if they try to use the others as shields. So, since they're stuck anyway, may as well go down fighting and let someone survive (they don't assign zero value to others, they just assign infinite value to themselves).
Or someone who did very bad things to achieve their goals, and would do it again, but "survive at any cost" isn't one of those goals, and they're otherwise quite altruistic.
And so forth.Last edited by icefractal; 2024-03-21 at 03:28 AM.
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2024-03-21, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
There are ways to make the scenario Evil. The one presented, however, was not. It was explicitly about protecting the innocents. The known sacrifice of one's self for others is emblematic of the Good alignment, and is the prototypical Heroic Sacrifice. Even when done pragmatically.
You can run the calculus and go "Oh hey, if I save this village, they'd write epic legends about me, and I'll be a grand hero for all of history! So, I'm going to help people out." Selfish motivation, perhaps... but saving a a village is Good (by default - assuming it's a normal, functional village that isn't full of murder demons). Pragmatism is an excuse, not something to be guilty of.
No one (here) said that every Evil character must be absolutely Evil with no other characteristics or in-groups or anything but Pure Evil.
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2024-03-21, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2024
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Albeit the sacrifice was genuine, the point is, one can't usually change his alignment in a few seconds, even if remorseful.
The idea was about the guilt-ridden Evil character asking the gods "Give me just enough reprive to atone for my sins and save those people".Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-03-21 at 04:37 AM.
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2024-03-21, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
This isn't exactly "risking themselves" for anything though.
Also not risking themselves to save the orphanage, they're risking themselves out of pride. Seems they would have done the same, orphanage or no.
It's not really "risk" if you're gonna die anyway, is it?
Masquerading your actions isn't the same as actually doing them for the right reasons. The second guy, for example, may be able to convince the orphans that he saved their lives out of the goodness of his heart AFTER the fact, but truth is, they weren't even a thought on his mind at the time.
Now, there IS an example though, and that's the "ends justify the means" kind of evil. The kind of person who would do all the wrong things for all the right reasons. That's the sort of evil person who would likely, truly, attempt to save the orphans at the cost of their own life.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2024-03-21, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
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2024-03-21, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Quoth Samael Morgenst:
Albeit the sacrifice was genuine, the point is, one can't usually change his alignment in a few seconds, even if remorseful.
And if that moment must exist at some point, then it makes sense that the moment when it happens would be when something else significant happens. Maybe it's after a philosophical conversation, or after getting caught, or after reading a particularly insightful book... or maybe it's when, suddenly, the opportunity comes up to fight off an undead horde to save an orphanage.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2024-03-22, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Yeah, this is my thought too. The fact that alignment mechanics are binary (...ternary, technically) means a few things. It means there has to be a discrete "tipping point", a boundary between one alignment and the next, where you change. It also means that even if two characters are Evil, one of them can be closer to Neutral than the other. Presumably, this also means that a person could be "barely Evil", where they're in a state that they do still count as Evil but one major Good deed could flip them.
Last edited by Eurus; 2024-03-22 at 11:51 AM.
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2024-03-22, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2024-03-23, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
There is also the fact that repenting and atoning is not required for an alignment change. It is enough if the person basically stops doing evil and does the occianal good deed. And then thealignment will change after enough time.
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2024-03-24, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
I think I mirror the thoughts of many others when I give this opinion.
IF the item is unintelligent and the gods do not directly interfere. The wielder is saddled with negative levels.
If the item is intelligent. It may impose a geas of some kind, or some sort of possession to negative the negative levels, depending on how "strict" the item is, it could even postpone the negative levels until innocent lives are saved and kill the wielder after.
If the item is unintelligent and the gods do directly interfere. It entirely depends on which god interferes, how they feel about the situation, whether or not it's Taco Tuesday at the local Cosmart and if they give a crap about the orphans in the first place. (As a general rule of thumb - reading through source material - the gods give maybe like 1/10th of a **** about mortals. It's more of a "Here's some super powers, go do good I guess." Instead of actually being helpful in most cases.
To the debate about evil- I'd also argue that the character isn't. [Evil] even if they are a bit evil.
I had a Lawful [Evil] character once, who would often go out of their way to save guards and innocent people. Because he was an assassin who wanted to be well known and well-regarded in cities he frequented. But if someone paid for you to die, he'd use poison, slip in when you were sleeping and kill you and anyone around you that might be able to identify him. I give this excerpt because I could absolutely see evil people doing "good" things. But from what the OP described, I wouldn't call the character [Evil]. Just a snarky adventurer who has a substance abuse problem because their job consists of fighting eldritch creatures that cause insanity by existing.Amateur writer over at Royal Road! Come check me out! https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/65...s-from-alirast
Life's a bitch, so if it's easy you're doing it wrong.
I live to die, I love to lose, I trust to be betrayed, this is who I am.
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2024-03-26, 04:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
So there's several things colliding at once here.
1. Part of the game's premise is that everyone has an alignment in one of these nine squares, and mostly sticks to it consistently. People can and do change alignment, but on the whole, part of the fantasy is that there are "lawful good" people and "chaotic evil" people and that these categories meaningfully describe people in the long term.
2. The entire concept of swords that care about your alignment rests on this. So by default, he gets the negative levels, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
3. At the same time, alignment isn't intended to be a straitjacket - it is there to enable storytelling, not to obstruct it. So if a player did this, I think the DM should just ask them what their intent is. With that in mind...
4. Having this be a moment of revelation where the character becomes not-evil is reasonable. Alignment can and does change, and that sort of storytelling element can be cool. I would personally frown on nit-picking along the lines of "was this set up properly" or "is this cool enough" - players are supposed to play their own characters, and nit-picking their storytelling ability seems wrong to me.
5. Having them just choose to suck up the negative levels is also reasonable (evil people can do good things while remaining evil.)
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2024-03-26, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
The problem is that the character wants to remain evil after their "act of goodness."
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2024-03-26, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Singapore
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Well, in that case they just take the negative level. The premise of the setting is that good and evil are something you are, not just something you do; they can change, but they don't instantly update to reflect your behavior at any given moment. Absent magic, changing your alignment isn't like updating your social media status.
It's reasonable for people to side-eye this, but it's not really intended to be realistic or a deep commentary on anything, it's just intended as a quick way to allow for epic battles of good and evil in which "good" and "evil" are concrete, metaphysically meaningful categories.Last edited by Aquillion; 2024-03-26 at 10:48 PM.
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2024-03-29, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
This actually strikes me as a great opportunity for dramatic storytelling: at a key moment in the battle, he suddenly stops suffering the negative levels.
Perhaps this is even what make the difference between this being a last stand and him survivin- those few extra hit points and those suddenly better attacks.
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2024-03-29, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
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2024-03-29, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
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2024-03-29, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
I haven't noticed anyone doubting if an evil character might make the stand described here.
I have, however, seen people discussing whether the character described there is actually evil.
Yes, evil characters can do good things. They can do them for evil or selfish reasons, they can even do them for good reasons with nessicarilly having a change of heart. But none of that seems relevant here.
Two answer the two questions that the first question has split into:
I don't think this character sounds evil. Someone here has a signature that says "Evil isn't looking out for number one, evil is looking to screw number two." This character sounds, at worst, like a selfish jerk.
I believe a character who is evil might be granted a miracle of the sort asked for here - immunity to the Ill effects of using a holy weapon for the duration of this combat since it serves the God's goals. But also might not. And it will matter if the gods in this world are nebulous forces or occasional drinking buddies.
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2024-03-29, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
I'm not looking for a cite unless someone has one and I don't promise it exists in 3.5 as opposed to older editions, but I remember lots of NPCs (and PCs, but based on the example of the NPCs) that were N(e), or Neutral, leaning evil or good. And as with everything else, there are a ton of reasons for that. I had a character who was Cn(e) because his personal morality tended towards neutral but he worshiped a CE god, specifically as the patron of Chaos and Personal freedom. He would have absolutely defended an orphanage. Kids can't exercise freedom if they are dead. But if the demon attacking it flashed his boss' sign he would also have walked away in a heartbeat or murdered the guards coming to put out the fire. And if he saw the director of the orphanage discipline a child for not obeying the rules he would have left the orphan her head as an object lesson for how to treat people who try to tell you what to do. Because that child will never develop its true potential with a bunch of rules keeping it down. But as long as it wasn't related to his god's other followers or his fanatical devotion to chaos he preferred good to evil and actually started a order of his god's church with a CN orientation. He probably danced across the CN/CE line a dozen times. Whats wrong with summoning a demon to attack a band of slavers, for the benefit of freeing slaves?
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2024-03-29, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
He can't change his alignment in an instant, but if the character had already been feeling guilty, trying to improve himself, and undergoing a sort of antihero redemption arc leading up to this moment then reaching out for the sword could be the crux of his alignment shift. Mind you, he doesn't need to become good to use the weapon - a holy weapon only bestows its penalty on evil characters trying to wield it, so neutral is good enough.
An evil character is one who will go out of his way to harm others, often taking pleasure in their suffering. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll may be considered immoral, but such mindless self-indulgence as having the occasional drunken orgy isn't likely to shift your alignment from neutral to evil if nobody's getting hurt in the process. The brawling and stealing - harming others for personal gain and enjoyment - will push him back towards evil if he keeps at it, but partying too hard will not. He could reasonably shift to neutral and maintain that alignment by giving up his harmful vices while maintaining his self-indulgent ones.
There's any number of reasons for how or why his alignment could change, but in the end the answer to the original question is still simply "No." An evil character can not wield a holy sword without penalty. Regardless of how good the reason may be, he is still evil and receives negative levels as such for as long as his alignment line reads "Evil." If the character is only able to use the sword due to a shift in alignment then the initial question is irrelevant: The character is no longer an evil character wielding a holy weapon for a good purpose. He is simply a neutral or good character wielding a holy weapon, which is perfectly legal and no exception needs to be made based on the virtue of his actions or intentions."Technically correct" is the best kind of correct.
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2024-04-03, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose
Drinking, Gambling, Solicitation, brawling and theft are not necessarily evil.
Are we talking a player character Evil Mercenary? Because that's pretty significant here. Does the player want their character to have a redemption arc? Like sure there's some rules stuff here, but the stuff outside the rules is more important. And if it's an NPC than as a DM you could make a call. I would say that a character who is genuinely repentant in that situation might have their alignment shift temporarily or otherwise.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.