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2024-05-15, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
You know... That's actually a really good illustration... If you make its head more camel/horse-like instead of reptilian, it would be an almost dead-on-the-mark picture of a giraffe.
That's very impressive, considering the guy who drew it probably had never even heard of a giraffe before (and let's be honest... Not many vertebrates are as weird-looking as a giraffe).Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
Not all heroes wield scimitars, falchions and longbows! (I'm quite proud of this one ) - Lemmy's Homebrew Cauldron
You can find all my work here.
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2024-05-15, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
It's definitely not a medieval picture, though, judging by the style and technique. So, probably by someone who knew what a giraffe looked like and painted the questing beast like that on purpose. (Edit: found the source. 1904). I can't find an actual medieval picture.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2024-05-15, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
Not all heroes wield scimitars, falchions and longbows! (I'm quite proud of this one ) - Lemmy's Homebrew Cauldron
You can find all my work here.
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2024-05-15, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
I would guess sometime in the 1800s, probably as part of an illustrated children's book.
The look had definitely taken by the 1900s, it pops up in various old animated works I'm familiar with, but my knowledge of older works isn't sufficient to guess where they got it from. The oldest one I know of is The Reluctant Dragon, which is bigger than a man, but also not quite a modern dragon since it doesn't have wings.
For a rumination of my own, when did dragons stop having mammalian features added in? Beards, ears, paws, canine or feline snouts all featured in some dragons in the 20th century, but I can't think of many having them these days.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-15, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
I wonder if there might be some influence from dinosaurs? While quite different from dragons, they're a pretty obvious comparison and might've pushed dragons away from the more mammalian look.
Though I suppose the timeline might not match up with what you're saying. Unless it's specifically because of Jurassic Park and other modern dinosaur depictions, maybe?Last edited by Batcathat; 2024-05-15 at 12:26 PM.
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2024-05-15, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Of course, dinosaurs had mammalian features too, very early on. Richard Owen of the British Museum, who did the first famous reproductions, wanted them to look like mammals, so they ended up sort of looking like rhinoceroses covered in scales.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2024-05-15, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
I suppose we'll have to wait and see if the popular image of dragons eventually gets feathers.
Also, dinosaurs might explain the popularity of big majestic dragons, too. Dinos might come in all sizes but the big ones are certainly the most iconic.
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2024-05-15, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
We're definitely at that point by the time of Smaug, and while I'm no scholar of Beowulf I do think the dragon in that story is quite large.
I definitely credit dinosaurs to the increase in size and majesty, along with the proliferation of zoos with exotic large extant reptiles. If you've seen a real Komodo Dragon and know how big a T. rex was, suddenly a three meter long dragon doesn't seem so fantastical anymore.
I don't know about the mammal thing though. I'd honestly say it was probably more that the successful depictions were more reptilian so that's what got copied. Like I remember the Bankin-Rass Smaug being really mammalian looking, but it's not like the Bankin-Rass Tolkien adaptations were all that influential or popular.
I mean, it's happened. Eragon's film adaptation went for feathered wings.
Frankly I'm waiting for the media property which bases their dragons around either Azdarchids or Scansoriopterygids. Scansoriopterygids in particular are about as close to real dragons as evolution ever produced, although sadly the real ones were all quite small (where Azdarchids don't look like traditional dragons but absolutely would have felt like them)Last edited by Errorname; 2024-05-15 at 01:18 PM.
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2024-05-15, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
It kind of matches up, things like Rankin Bass's cat-Smaug was from 1977, and kind of the pinnacle of mammal/reptile dragons, and there was a big spike in dinosaur media in the 80s and 90s wasn't there? Land Before Time, Barney, Jurassic Park, Walking With Dinosaurs, and probably a hundred more properties I don't recall. It wouldn't be odd for the explosion of more modern takes on dinosaurs and the introduction to them in lots of child oriented media to reshape something like dragons.
There's also the general artistic shifts that took place come to think of it. CGI animated stuff like Dragonheart which went for a fully reptilian dragon, as did several budget movie properties afterwards, the tone shifts of the 80s and 90s might have also pushed for a less whimsical dragon.
EDIT:
Fire breathing flying murder-giraffes could be pretty fun.Last edited by Grim Portent; 2024-05-15 at 01:27 PM.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-15, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
If you look under certain corners of the internet, you will find endless modern dragons with massive mammalian features, I assure you.
In the meantime, there's Calder, from Order of the Stick. He's fairly board-appropriate, and is rocking a beard. Unless that's supposed to be some sort of tentacle arrangement."Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
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"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
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2024-05-15, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2021
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2024-05-15, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-15, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
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2024-05-15, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Spoiler
I see I'm gathering quite the list of people who fundamentally reject my mohawk. Brave choice when I have frost breath and a full complement of spells as an innate sorcerer.
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2024-05-15, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
I think it's easy for this sort of discussion to turn into apophenia, reckoning a pattern that sounds right but doesn't actually hold up.
Like I thought I'd noticed an interesting pattern of two legged dragons tending to be more animalistic and four legged dragons tending to be more anthropomorphized, which sounds good so long as I don't acknowledge exceptions (Skyrim has two legged dragons whose language and sapience is fundamental to the story, Dragon Age's Dragons are little more than dangerous animals)
I think that's why they called the concept of an Azdarchid inspired dragon a beaked murder-giraffe.
I did not interpret that mohawk as being hair, I thought it was like a Basiliscus sail or something.
Same with Calder, honestly, I'm not going to interpret a dragon's features as mammalian in an abstracted artstyle, especially since there's such a precedent of designs mimicking the feel of a mammalian feature (like a beard or mane) with reptillian scutes or spines.
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2024-05-15, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
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2024-05-15, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
In Calder's case the way the two fore bulby-bits are drawn looks more like how hair would be drawn rather than tentacles or spines, they even change shape in some pages in a way that reads to me as hair streaming behind his head movements. The little scraggly bit behind them does look a bit more tentacular.
Ain't you a Silver Dragon? Cause that would make that a frill or crest, I've read my monster manual.
Mind you, in reptile-people artwork dorsal crests are used as a replacement for mohawks, rather than just having them wear wigs or hats or something, so I guess it counts as a mohawk. In that light, nice mohawk.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-15, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
I, too, mistakenly thought it was a collapsible sail used to aid in hydrodynamics, to signal to potential mates that you were of age and seeking, and also to absorb solar light for use as a backup energy source for your light-up shoes. But if it is just merely a mohawk, then yes, it is far greater than any mohawk I have sported.
"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
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"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
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2024-05-15, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Honestly it doesn't read like how this comic draws hair, it feels more like a Wobbegong's fleshy beard than anything else.
That might be another shift, increasing global communication and migration has led to a lot more influence from Lóngs, which have piscine qualities that in my experience a lot of European dragons either lack outright or do not display prominently.
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2024-05-16, 05:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Ireland
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Last edited by Prime32; 2024-05-16 at 05:49 AM.
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2024-05-16, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Well of course not -- I wasn't gonna let a treasure like that slip through my fingers!
Let me know if you want to take a crack at it after we've completed it.
Interesting; I've always interpreted Lóngs' frills/manes/accents as being closer to hair or fur. Is the artwork intended to evoke, like, catfish-style fleshy whiskers?
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2024-05-16, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
The whiskers are evoking those on Koi. Which can turn into dragons if they try real hard.
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2024-05-16, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
The whiskers are often something like catfish barbels, but the mane and frills towards the back of the head, on the limbs or along the spine are meant to be like a lions. Chinese dragons are chimeras, mixing together the features of a lot of animals. Body of a snake, scales of a fish, mane of a lion, antlers of a deer are the most consistent ones as I understand it.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-16, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2024-05-16, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Dammit, Ionathus, now how am i going to get it from a non descriptive garage sale i dont know the location of from probably several years ago?
I do love dragon puzzles....
I'd have gone with this.
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2024-05-16, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Last edited by Bohandas; 2024-05-16 at 01:52 PM.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
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2024-05-16, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
OracleofWuffing beat you to the joke.
Dragons with huge tracts of land aside, I'm not sure the mesoamerican critters are usually considered dragons. It's rather arbitrary I know, but for whatever reason Coatls and the like are off to the side. Really asian dragons should as well, but because of shoddy translation conventions they got the name and started to mix together with the western ones. It's like pandas and giant pandas, unrelated but conflated. And on certain sites, inflated.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2024-05-16, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
Apparently (if you trust wiki) then 'MS Harley 3244, a medieval bestiary dated to around 1260 AD, contains the oldest recognizable image of a fully modern, Western dragon'.
Spoiler: Behold
But in terms of what cemented the visual look of western dragons - I think that probably relies on what you by by cemented, western dragons and visual look (the above seems to have four wings).
I think Smaug likely did more cementing then other dragons before him although the one George killed likely did inspire him and there is an image of him from shortly after the above ~1270AD.
Spoiler: Behold (again)
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2024-05-16, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
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2024-05-16, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?
There are people who actually use the mobile versions of websites?
The first thing I do when I install a browser on my phone is set it permanently to use the desktop version of the siteLast edited by Bohandas; 2024-05-16 at 03:09 PM.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)