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Thread: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
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2024-05-22, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2024-05-22, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
I set the base difficulty on the idea of how likely a competent but bog standard commoner would be to succeed. Once set, the base DC for that task does not change as long as the task doesn't change. Advantage or Disadvantage are applied when something outside the task itself modifies the challenge of the task.
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2024-05-22, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Something I hadn't mentioned before - I do not set DCs to what a commoner can do, and my players know this. PCs are special - just being a PC is effectively a +5 to all skill rolls for me and I set DCs accordingly. If the odds of a commoner sinking a free throw in basketball are about 50%, then I would set the DC for that at 5 for an athletics(Dex) check. They should hit that shot a lot more than a commoner, even if they have a 10 dex and no proficiency, IMO (commoners just don't roll, they get narrated). I completely understand others doing it differently.
Also to follow on that - skilled commoners will auto-succeed at the things they are skilled at, even if it is something that would still require a roll from a PC with proficiency. A PC does the things they do over a broad range, and not all the time. A professional commoner does basically the same thing day in and day out, and so should be better than even a skilled PC at doing that same thing.Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2024-05-22, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Fair enough. My way if doing it is basically a response to the DC race I often saw in 3.x where to "keep a challenge" DCs seemed to keep pace with skill point investment, basically making it feel like you never actually got better, numbers just get higher.
For commoners doing what they do? The village blacksmith never rolls to make a horse shoe unless there's a really unusual challenge involved and it matters if he fails. I.e. if the players need shoes for 4 horses and the blacksmith only has an hour to make them, he's rolling.I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2024-05-22, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
The difficulty of a thing doesn't change based on the person doing it. One person can have a better chance of succeeding than another, but the task itself remains itself. Change the DC if an added anomaly changes the nature of the task. Apply Advantage/Disadvantage if an added anomaly changes the person doing the task.
Climb a knotted rope with Athletics. DC is X
Bob with Athletics +3 climbs the rope. DC is X
Frank with Athletics +7 climbs the rope. DC is X
The rope is not knotted and has a slippery substance on it. DC is Y > X
Bob has Water Walk cast on him for Reason and comes across the not knotted and slippery substance rope and wants to climb it. While technically not walking and the slippery substance is not pure water asks the DM can it help. DM likes the logic behind it and says yes. DC is Y > X Bob rolls with Advantage.
Franks want to climb the same rope but is wearing full plate, has a full backpack, and the halfling is sitting on his shoulders. DC is Y > X Franks rolls with Disadvantage.
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2024-05-22, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
One of those dirty little secrets about 5e is NPCs don't need to make any ability check unless its contested by a PC. You can use dice but it doesn't have and real function.
It's like rolling for weather vs picking it flat out or random mob tables. Since you're the one who determined if the dice are used it's not really a choice even if it feels that way.
There's also access wonderful protection from NPCs randomly doing something completely insane just because the dice say so like snapping chains.what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2024-05-22, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- Utah
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Yeah, not much effective difference between our methods - mine is just to explicitly make PCs better than a commoner. And I agree wholeheartedly on the blacksmith bit - yes, a professional would still be rolling if there were unusual circumstances like a time constraint. It would be rare, and only if I'd rather see a random outcome than narrate one I choose. I guess the better way to phrase it for me would be that a professional doing their job is going to succeed at it unless there is an unusual constraint, in which case there is the possibility of failure that may be resolved through ability checks. (Although I will admit I have no idea how long it takes to make horseshoes and don't know that I would have immediately thought that an hour wasn't enough time if it hadn't been pointed out )
Last edited by Darth Credence; 2024-05-22 at 04:23 PM.
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2024-05-22, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
So knowing a Mystra holy symbol as a Cleric of Mystra with the Acolyte Background, in which you were a priest of Mystra, is the same DC as the PC who grew up in the wild, never exposed to the symbol in their life?
So is it DC 15 for the priest of Mystra to know Mystra’s symbol or is it auto pass for the hermit to know it, though they’ve never seen it or heard of Mystra before?
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2024-05-22, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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- New Zealand
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2024-05-22, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
There is no DC if there's no need to roll. It is different than someone's modifier allows them to succeed a DC check on a Natural 1. Technically there is a roll; you just don't have to do it physically rolling the clackity clack math rock on the table to know it will succeed. The hermit will have the same DC as a cleric of Red Knight, but the cleric will have a better chance of knowing due to a higher modifier than the hermit on knowledge religion. The DM might impose disadvantage to the hermit for being so isolated, but the DC is still the same as the Red Knight cleric. The DM might say the hermit can't roll at all, no DC, because there's no way he could have obtained the knowledge depending on campaign circumstances. The DC exists only when there's a fail/succeed chance. Game Math makes it moot if there's still a roll but the modifier will succeed on a 1 or fail on a 20 anyway.
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2024-05-23, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
For this to be an ability check, you'd want to know what might happen (a PC recognises the symbol) and why it might happen (either because it's the holy symbol of their deity, or because it's the holy symbol of their friend's deity). If the why is different, then it's not the same check.
That said, I'm pretty sure Pex's point was more that you shouldn't start handing out advantage/disadvantage or manipulating DCs because of things the rules already cover -- being a bard shouldn't reduce the DC required to sing a song, for example.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2024-05-23 at 10:00 AM.
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2024-05-23, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2024-05-23, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2022
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Either method, is officially sanctioned.
While you may not be writing a book, anyone participating in a D&D game is involved in a shared storytelling experience.
Imagine an action film in which twenty minutes of screen time is taken up, watching someone poorly change a tire on a getaway car. I can imagine some people would consider that not a great use of screentime.
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2024-05-23, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-05-23, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Advantage and disadvantage should be for circumstantial benefits. The DMG recommends the following:
DMG 239: Consider granting advantage when...
- Circumstances not related to a creature's inherent capabilities provide it with an edge.
- Some aspect of the environment contributes to the character's chance of success.
- A player shows exceptional creativity or cunning in attempting or describing a task.
- Previous actions (whether taken by the character making the attempt or some other creature) improve the chances of success.
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2024-05-23, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Unless that's why the cops catch them and now the failure to quickly change the tire is important to the story. But, yeah, a table can do it however works for them. Even way back when D&D started, the rules were guidelines to help people play together and it was never expected that every table would play exactly the same way.
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2024-05-23, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
But you are the GM. You put the NPC there, determined it's abilities, and gave it the task. Why would you suddenly decide the last step should be random?
"Just a second guys. I got to roll 142 charisma checks to handle the trading that's going on behind you that's completely irrelevant to anything that you want to do"Last edited by stoutstien; 2024-05-23 at 02:02 PM.
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2024-05-23, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Because if I'm rolling it's most likely because the player has driven an action from the NPC that is outside his normal do it every day routine where his success or failure impacts what happens with or to the PCs. In other words, his success or failure drives or alters decisions and plans from the players.
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2024-05-23, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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2024-05-23, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2024-05-23, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2024-05-23, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2024-05-23, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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2024-05-23, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
While the DMG lack guidance on that, I believe this is one of the situations where we should simply follow the maths.
Since advantages/disadvantages don't stack with each others, an advantage is a circumstantial bonus that is redundant with being helped, while a disadvantage is a circumstantial bonus that is fully compensated by being helped. On the other hand, modifying the DC will stack with everything.
The other factor is variance. A disadvantage means that luck is unlikely to save you, an advantage means that bad luck is unlikely to screw you. On the other hand, outside of extreme outliers, changing the DC will keep the result mostly up to lady luck (unless the players get advantages/disadvantage from other sources, of course).
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2024-05-23, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2024-05-23, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2022
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Famously, not an action movie, however.
The idea that I was expressing some minor disagreement with was the notion that if a mechanic was applicable to the NPC Blacksmith being asked to some emergency horse-shoeing for the PCs, then it should be applied.
I think it is fine for narrative flow, to not apply some mechanics, at times.
A DM is on a solid rules footing either way they chose to rule.
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2024-05-23, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
Agreed that being a Bard shouldn’t matter, but there’s a difference in difficulty in say doing a performance of a song you’ve rehearsed multiple times a day for a month, and trying to do a performance in which you’re singing a song you e never even heard before.
Either situation could be described as a challenge to “sing a song”, but I’d say performing something you’ve prepared and practiced is much different than trying to perform something on the spot without experiencing it before.
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2024-05-24, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
I do think there is some wiggleroom with that, what is the task vs what is the person.
Tools are references are one thing that springs to mind.
Two people lost in the woods where one has a trail map implies one has advantage (or disadvantage but we will get to that).
But you could frame it as one is following a map, and one is not and so are doing easier or harder tasks.
Like say recognizing a holy symbol on sight vs finding its meanings in a local library.
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My personal take is adv/dis should probably be used sparingly. Since a lot of PC facing effects use it.
People make a big deal of how flanking devalues reckless attack, and this seems to warrant similar concerns.
also, at least my personal thing, many things seem at least reasonable to affect the DC.
Take for example lifting something above your weight class, one's strength is definitely a component of that, but things like lift twice your usual would be 'the same even if that has a different scope.'Last edited by Witty Username; 2024-05-24 at 02:47 PM.
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2024-05-24, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Bristol, UK
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
If they're both singing in the same environment, then that sounds like a contest, in which case your main tools for favouring whoever had rehearsed more would be advantage and disadvantage. That said, they'd have to have rehearsed that song for that specific performance. Just practicing songs in general is already covered by proficiency and expertise.
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2024-05-28, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
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- UNKNOWN
Re: Advantage/Disadvantage and DC
I determine the need for a roll and DC based on the action being performed and the character performing it.
Disadvantage comes from the surrounding environment and complicating circumstances.
Advantage generally comes from PC abilities, gear, tactics, and player cleverness. It's not something I apply unbidden as a GM.I am rel.