Advantage/Disadvantage and DC

[stoutstien]

Nor do you need to. Play and find out.

I'm viewing it from the GMs point of reference. You can't set a DC before you know what they are doing.

**The players should definitely have a pretty darn good idea if something is easy or hard before they even ask. If not the GM failed and should feel bad.**

[Sigreid]

I set the base difficulty on the idea of how likely a competent but bog standard commoner would be to succeed. Once set, the base DC for that task does not change as long as the task doesn't change. Advantage or Disadvantage are applied when something outside the task itself modifies the challenge of the task.

[Darth Credence]

I set the base difficulty on the idea of how likely a competent but bog standard commoner would be to succeed. Once set, the base DC for that task does not change as long as the task doesn't change. Advantage or Disadvantage are applied when something outside the task itself modifies the challenge of the task.

Something I hadn't mentioned before - I do not set DCs to what a commoner can do, and my players know this. PCs are special - just being a PC is effectively a +5 to all skill rolls for me and I set DCs accordingly. If the odds of a commoner sinking a free throw in basketball are about 50%, then I would set the DC for that at 5 for an athletics(Dex) check. They should hit that shot a lot more than a commoner, even if they have a 10 dex and no proficiency, IMO (commoners just don't roll, they get narrated). I completely understand others doing it differently.

Also to follow on that - skilled commoners will auto-succeed at the things they are skilled at, even if it is something that would still require a roll from a PC with proficiency. A PC does the things they do over a broad range, and not all the time. A professional commoner does basically the same thing day in and day out, and so should be better than even a skilled PC at doing that same thing.

[Sigreid]

Something I hadn't mentioned before - I do not set DCs to what a commoner can do, and my players know this. PCs are special - just being a PC is effectively a +5 to all skill rolls for me and I set DCs accordingly. If the odds of a commoner sinking a free throw in basketball are about 50%, then I would set the DC for that at 5 for an athletics(Dex) check. They should hit that shot a lot more than a commoner, even if they have a 10 dex and no proficiency, IMO (commoners just don't roll, they get narrated). I completely understand others doing it differently.

Also to follow on that - skilled commoners will auto-succeed at the things they are skilled at, even if it is something that would still require a roll from a PC with proficiency. A PC does the things they do over a broad range, and not all the time. A professional commoner does basically the same thing day in and day out, and so should be better than even a skilled PC at doing that same thing.

Fair enough. My way if doing it is basically a response to the DC race I often saw in 3.x where to "keep a challenge" DCs seemed to keep pace with skill point investment, basically making it feel like you never actually got better, numbers just get higher.

For commoners doing what they do? The village blacksmith never rolls to make a horse shoe unless there's a really unusual challenge involved and it matters if he fails. I.e. if the players need shoes for 4 horses and the blacksmith only has an hour to make them, he's rolling.

[Pex]

The difficulty of a thing doesn't change based on the person doing it. One person can have a better chance of succeeding than another, but the task itself remains itself. Change the DC if an added anomaly changes the nature of the task. Apply Advantage/Disadvantage if an added anomaly changes the person doing the task.

Climb a knotted rope with Athletics. DC is X
Bob with Athletics +3 climbs the rope. DC is X
Frank with Athletics +7 climbs the rope. DC is X
The rope is not knotted and has a slippery substance on it. DC is Y > X
Bob has Water Walk cast on him for Reason and comes across the not knotted and slippery substance rope and wants to climb it. While technically not walking and the slippery substance is not pure water asks the DM can it help. DM likes the logic behind it and says yes. DC is Y > X Bob rolls with Advantage.
Franks want to climb the same rope but is wearing full plate, has a full backpack, and the halfling is sitting on his shoulders. DC is Y > X Franks rolls with Disadvantage.

[stoutstien]

Fair enough. My way if doing it is basically a response to the DC race I often saw in 3.x where to "keep a challenge" DCs seemed to keep pace with skill point investment, basically making it feel like you never actually got better, numbers just get higher.

For commoners doing what they do? The village blacksmith never rolls to make a horse shoe unless there's a really unusual challenge involved and it matters if he fails. I.e. if the players need shoes for 4 horses and the blacksmith only has an hour to make them, he's rolling.

One of those dirty little secrets about 5e is NPCs don't need to make any ability check unless its contested by a PC. You can use dice but it doesn't have and real function.

It's like rolling for weather vs picking it flat out or random mob tables. Since you're the one who determined if the dice are used it's not really a choice even if it feels that way.

There's also access wonderful protection from NPCs randomly doing something completely insane just because the dice say so like snapping chains.

[Darth Credence]

Fair enough. My way if doing it is basically a response to the DC race I often saw in 3.x where to "keep a challenge" DCs seemed to keep pace with skill point investment, basically making it feel like you never actually got better, numbers just get higher.

For commoners doing what they do? The village blacksmith never rolls to make a horse shoe unless there's a really unusual challenge involved and it matters if he fails. I.e. if the players need shoes for 4 horses and the blacksmith only has an hour to make them, he's rolling.

Yeah, not much effective difference between our methods - mine is just to explicitly make PCs better than a commoner. And I agree wholeheartedly on the blacksmith bit - yes, a professional would still be rolling if there were unusual circumstances like a time constraint. It would be rare, and only if I'd rather see a random outcome than narrate one I choose. I guess the better way to phrase it for me would be that a professional doing their job is going to succeed at it unless there is an unusual constraint, in which case there is the possibility of failure that may be resolved through ability checks. (Although I will admit I have no idea how long it takes to make horseshoes and don't know that I would have immediately thought that an hour wasn't enough time if it hadn't been pointed out )

[RSP]

The difficulty of a thing doesn't change based on the person doing it.

So knowing a Mystra holy symbol as a Cleric of Mystra with the Acolyte Background, in which you were a priest of Mystra, is the same DC as the PC who grew up in the wild, never exposed to the symbol in their life?

So is it DC 15 for the priest of Mystra to know Mystra’s symbol or is it auto pass for the hermit to know it, though they’ve never seen it or heard of Mystra before?

[greenstone]

I think about it like this: DC is about the challenge itself, adv and disadv is about the person attempting it.

Climbing an unknotted rope is DC 10. But the rope is old and wet, and has algae growing on it, making it very slippery. The DC is adjusted to 15.

Frank is trying to climb the rope. He makes the check at disadvantage because he got his hand caught in a sliding panel trap and its use is compromised.

QFT.

Another way of describing it is be that the DC is intrinsic to the task and the adv/disadv is intrinsic to the character.

[Pex]

So knowing a Mystra holy symbol as a Cleric of Mystra with the Acolyte Background, in which you were a priest of Mystra, is the same DC as the PC who grew up in the wild, never exposed to the symbol in their life?

So is it DC 15 for the priest of Mystra to know Mystra’s symbol or is it auto pass for the hermit to know it, though they’ve never seen it or heard of Mystra before?

There is no DC if there's no need to roll. It is different than someone's modifier allows them to succeed a DC check on a Natural 1. Technically there is a roll; you just don't have to do it physically rolling the clackity clack math rock on the table to know it will succeed. The hermit will have the same DC as a cleric of Red Knight, but the cleric will have a better chance of knowing due to a higher modifier than the hermit on knowledge religion. The DM might impose disadvantage to the hermit for being so isolated, but the DC is still the same as the Red Knight cleric. The DM might say the hermit can't roll at all, no DC, because there's no way he could have obtained the knowledge depending on campaign circumstances. The DC exists only when there's a fail/succeed chance. Game Math makes it moot if there's still a roll but the modifier will succeed on a 1 or fail on a 20 anyway.

[lesser_minion]

So knowing a Mystra holy symbol as a Cleric of Mystra with the Acolyte Background, in which you were a priest of Mystra, is the same DC as the PC who grew up in the wild, never exposed to the symbol in their life?

So is it DC 15 for the priest of Mystra to know Mystra’s symbol or is it auto pass for the hermit to know it, though they’ve never seen it or heard of Mystra before?

For this to be an ability check, you'd want to know what might happen (a PC recognises the symbol) and why it might happen (either because it's the holy symbol of their deity, or because it's the holy symbol of their friend's deity). If the why is different, then it's not the same check.

That said, I'm pretty sure Pex's point was more that you shouldn't start handing out advantage/disadvantage or manipulating DCs because of things the rules already cover -- being a bard shouldn't reduce the DC required to sing a song, for example.

[Sigreid]

One of those dirty little secrets about 5e is NPCs don't need to make any ability check unless its contested by a PC. You can use dice but it doesn't have and real function.

It's like rolling for weather vs picking it flat out or random mob tables. Since you're the one who determined if the dice are used it's not really a choice even if it feels that way.

There's also access wonderful protection from NPCs randomly doing something completely insane just because the dice say so like snapping chains.

Handle it how you want, but I'm playing a game, not writing a novel, so if there's a chance of failure that has an effect, I'm letting the mechanics mechanic.

[Blatant Beast]

Handle it how you want, but I'm playing a game, not writing a novel, so if there's a chance of failure that has an effect, I'm letting the mechanics mechanic.

Either method, is officially sanctioned.
While you may not be writing a book, anyone participating in a D&D game is involved in a shared storytelling experience.

Imagine an action film in which twenty minutes of screen time is taken up, watching someone poorly change a tire on a getaway car. I can imagine some people would consider that not a great use of screentime.

[KorvinStarmast]

Another way of describing it is be that the DC is intrinsic to the task and the adv/disadv is intrinsic to the character.

The character and the situation on the latter (per the CH1 and CH7 discussion of adv/disadv).

[schm0]

Another way of describing it is be that the DC is intrinsic to the task and the adv/disadv is intrinsic to the character.

Advantage and disadvantage should be for circumstantial benefits. The DMG recommends the following:

DMG 239: Consider granting advantage when...

• Circumstances not related to a creature's inherent capabilities provide it with an edge.
• Some aspect of the environment contributes to the character's chance of success.
• A player shows exceptional creativity or cunning in attempting or describing a task.
• Previous actions (whether taken by the character making the attempt or some other creature) improve the chances of success.

I tend to agree with this advice. Ability scores, proficiency, expertise, and other class abilities can all augment a check, and those are things that are intrinsic to the character. Those things should already factor into the modifiers, not grant advantage or disadvantage.

[Sigreid]

Either method, is officially sanctioned.
While you may not be writing a book, anyone participating in a D&D game is involved in a shared storytelling experience.

Imagine an action film in which twenty minutes of screen time is taken up, watching someone poorly change a tire on a getaway car. I can imagine some people would consider that not a great use of screentime.

Unless that's why the cops catch them and now the failure to quickly change the tire is important to the story. But, yeah, a table can do it however works for them. Even way back when D&D started, the rules were guidelines to help people play together and it was never expected that every table would play exactly the same way.

[stoutstien]

Handle it how you want, but I'm playing a game, not writing a novel, so if there's a chance of failure that has an effect, I'm letting the mechanics mechanic.

But you are the GM. You put the NPC there, determined it's abilities, and gave it the task. Why would you suddenly decide the last step should be random?

"Just a second guys. I got to roll 142 charisma checks to handle the trading that's going on behind you that's completely irrelevant to anything that you want to do"

[Sigreid]

But you are the GM. You put the NPC there, determined it's abilities, and gave it the task. Why would you suddenly decide the last step should be random?

"Just a second guys. I got to roll 142 charisma checks to handle the trading that's going on behind you that's completely irrelevant to anything that you want to do"

Because if I'm rolling it's most likely because the player has driven an action from the NPC that is outside his normal do it every day routine where his success or failure impacts what happens with or to the PCs. In other words, his success or failure drives or alters decisions and plans from the players.

[stoutstien]

Because if I'm rolling it's most likely because the player has driven an action from the NPC that is outside his normal do it every day routine where his success or failure impacts what happens with or to the PCs. In other words, his success or failure drives or alters decisions and plans from the players.

So you roll with the out come is contested when dealing with the PCs...which is exactly what I said.

[Sigreid]

So you roll with the out come is contested when dealing with the PCs...which is exactly what I said.

Clearly we are mostly just having near miss communication.

[stoutstien]

Clearly we are mostly just having near miss communication.

Yea I'm seeing that as well lol.

What I was getting at that using a commoner as a measurement for DC has a pretty large pitfall as they don't make ability checks unless the PCs are around. It's like a proximity effect.

[Sigreid]

Yea I'm seeing that as well lol.

What I was getting at that using a commoner as a measurement for DC has a pretty large pitfall as they don't make ability checks unless the PCs are around. It's like a proximity effect.

There's that communication thing again. That was just my short hand for saying I set DCs based on the chance a person with no positive or negative modifiers to the roll would be able to succeed at the task.

[stoutstien]

There's that communication thing again. That was just my short hand for saying I set DCs based on the chance a person with no positive or negative modifiers to the roll would be able to succeed at the task.

Ah DC as comparisons with nil as the start point. Makes sense if you are running semi static DCs for ability checks.

[MoiMagnus]

So,
Rereading the ability check section and I realize something I don't understand.
When are you supposed to adjust DC, and when are you supposed to use advantage/disadvantage?

From what I can tell one is supposed to ask is this an Easy, moderate, or hard task and set accordingly. But if their are exceptional circumstances to apply advantage or disadvantage. But checks don't have a 'standard' difficulty, they are set to the specific scenario which would include those circumstances in whether it would be easy, hard or somewhere in between.

There are some, like say sneaking or spotting is set by opposition, and so advantage/disadvantage would indicate circumstances, like say the spotter is poisoned and groggy, or the sneak is wearing noisy boots.

Is that when is it intended to be used or are DMs intended to use it more broadly, setting a 'baseline' for tasks and using advantage/disadvantage to adjust them?

While the DMG lack guidance on that, I believe this is one of the situations where we should simply follow the maths.

Since advantages/disadvantages don't stack with each others, an advantage is a circumstantial bonus that is redundant with being helped, while a disadvantage is a circumstantial bonus that is fully compensated by being helped. On the other hand, modifying the DC will stack with everything.

The other factor is variance. A disadvantage means that luck is unlikely to save you, an advantage means that bad luck is unlikely to screw you. On the other hand, outside of extreme outliers, changing the DC will keep the result mostly up to lady luck (unless the players get advantages/disadvantage from other sources, of course).

[Pex]

Either method, is officially sanctioned.
While you may not be writing a book, anyone participating in a D&D game is involved in a shared storytelling experience.

Imagine an action film in which twenty minutes of screen time is taken up, watching someone poorly change a tire on a getaway car. I can imagine some people would consider that not a great use of screentime.

Depends on the writing and acting. One famous tv sit-com had the whole episode take place with the characters waiting in line for a Chinese restaurant.

[Blatant Beast]

Depends on the writing and acting. One famous tv sit-com had the whole episode take place with the characters waiting in line for a Chinese restaurant.

Famously, not an action movie, however.
The idea that I was expressing some minor disagreement with was the notion that if a mechanic was applicable to the NPC Blacksmith being asked to some emergency horse-shoeing for the PCs, then it should be applied.

I think it is fine for narrative flow, to not apply some mechanics, at times.

A DM is on a solid rules footing either way they chose to rule.

[RSP]

being a bard shouldn't reduce the DC required to sing a song, for example.

Agreed that being a Bard shouldn’t matter, but there’s a difference in difficulty in say doing a performance of a song you’ve rehearsed multiple times a day for a month, and trying to do a performance in which you’re singing a song you e never even heard before.

Either situation could be described as a challenge to “sing a song”, but I’d say performing something you’ve prepared and practiced is much different than trying to perform something on the spot without experiencing it before.

[Witty Username]

The difficulty of a thing doesn't change based on the person doing it. One person can have a better chance of succeeding than another, but the task itself remains itself. Change the DC if an added anomaly changes the nature of the task. Apply Advantage/Disadvantage if an added anomaly changes the person doing the task.

I do think there is some wiggleroom with that, what is the task vs what is the person.
Tools are references are one thing that springs to mind.

Two people lost in the woods where one has a trail map implies one has advantage (or disadvantage but we will get to that).
But you could frame it as one is following a map, and one is not and so are doing easier or harder tasks.

Like say recognizing a holy symbol on sight vs finding its meanings in a local library.

--
My personal take is adv/dis should probably be used sparingly. Since a lot of PC facing effects use it.
People make a big deal of how flanking devalues reckless attack, and this seems to warrant similar concerns.
also, at least my personal thing, many things seem at least reasonable to affect the DC.

Take for example lifting something above your weight class, one's strength is definitely a component of that, but things like lift twice your usual would be 'the same even if that has a different scope.'

[lesser_minion]

Agreed that being a Bard shouldn’t matter, but there’s a difference in difficulty in say doing a performance of a song you’ve rehearsed multiple times a day for a month, and trying to do a performance in which you’re singing a song you e never even heard before.

Either situation could be described as a challenge to “sing a song”, but I’d say performing something you’ve prepared and practiced is much different than trying to perform something on the spot without experiencing it before.

If they're both singing in the same environment, then that sounds like a contest, in which case your main tools for favouring whoever had rehearsed more would be advantage and disadvantage. That said, they'd have to have rehearsed that song for that specific performance. Just practicing songs in general is already covered by proficiency and expertise.

[rel]

I determine the need for a roll and DC based on the action being performed and the character performing it.
Disadvantage comes from the surrounding environment and complicating circumstances.
Advantage generally comes from PC abilities, gear, tactics, and player cleverness. It's not something I apply unbidden as a GM.