Quest-Giver/Diplomancer (creature) and Master Diplomat (feat)

[rferries]

Quest-Giver (Venerable Human Aristocrat 2nd)

---

MEDIUM HUMANOID (Human)
Hit Dice: 2d8 - 8 (2 hp)
Initiative: -3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armour Class: 7 (-3 Dex), touch 7, flat-footed 7
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Dagger -3 melee (1d4-4)
Full Attack: Dagger -3 melee (1d4-4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: But Thou Must
Special Qualities: Human traits
Saves: Fort -4, Ref -3, Will +5
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 4, Con 3, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +8, Diplomacy +19, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Gather Information +8, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7, Intimidate +10, Sense Motive +9
Feats: Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)^B
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1 (3 with But Thou Must; diplomancer 6)
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

The old man beckons to you.

Some quest-givers are nobles or local officials who proactively send out calls for heroes, others simply lurk in local inns and taverns waiting to recruit wanderers. In any event, they are adept at getting people to accept their quests.

Combat
A quest-giver knows it is useless in a fight. It makes rushed Diplomacy checks to attempt to regain control of such a situation.

But Thou Must (Ex)
A quest-giver's life experience, wealth, authority, or other resources may be sufficient to grant the creature Master Diplomat as a bonus feat (in addition to the bonus feat for being human).

Diplomancers
A diplomancer is an (even more) persuasive quest-giver, that uses magic to enhance its own abilities rather than directly control the minds of others. They are typically 6th-level venerable half-elf bards with any or all of the following: Charisma scores of 18 or higher; the Master Diplomat, Negotiator, and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) feats; access to the eagle's splendour and heroism spells; and a circlet of persuasion or other magic item granting a competence bonus to Diplomacy checks. This typically results in a fully-prepared diplomancer having a Diplomacy bonus of +33 or better.

---

New Feat
Master Diplomat
You are never at a loss for words.

Prerequisites
Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and either NPC character or character level 6th.

Benefits
You can always choose to take 10 on a Diplomacy check, even if distracted or endangered. You ignore the standard -10 penalty for making a rushed Diplomacy check.

Special
An NPC character with this feat may use the Diplomacy skill to influence the attitudes of player characters.

---

Just an idea that came to me when I was pondering the skill synergy rules and how reverse-diplomancy might work. A DM might use one to (very tenuously) justify railroading the party, or to defy a PC Diplomancer. I was even think of a boss monster that could only be defeated by a series of Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive etc checks.

[Metastachydium]

Quest-Giver (Venerable Human Aristocrat 2nd)

---

MEDIUM HUMANOID (Human)
Hit Dice: 2d8 - 8 (2 hp)

1 hp, going by average.

Skills: Bluff +8, Diplomacy +19, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Gather Information +8, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +7, Intimidate +10, Sense Motive +7

I think you overexpended the skill budget by 3 points here.

Feats: Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)

I know it's ultimately rather immaterial, but could you mark the bonus feat as such?

Challenge Rating: 1

Level Adjustment: +0

Wait, what?!

But Thou Must (Ex)
A quest-giver can use the Diplomacy skill to influence the attitude of a player character. It can always choose to take 10 on a Diplomacy check, even if distracted or endangered. It ignores the standard -10 penalty for making a rushed Diplomacy check.

This, this here is basically DC 29 Ex Charm Monster at-will (but better!). At ECL 2. I'm scared.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Wait, what?!

It forces you into two levels of aristocrat and barely has enough strength to carry its own wealth by level in gold pieces. +0 seems okay to gain skill mastery of diplomacy and ignoring the penalty.

This, this here is basically DC 29 Ex Charm Monster at-will (but better!). At ECL 2. I'm scared.

As a PC it's only the ability to take 10 and make rushed attempts. In combat, there is a high chance one of the party members could kill the Giver before they all fall under its influence, as it only has 1 HP. CR 1 seems reasonable. Also, a result of 29 is only enough to make an indifferent creature into friendly, not helpful, so it's not quite Charm Monster with no class level. If it comes to a rushed diplomacy attempt, then it's probably because we are in combat, and the opponent is hostile. Then it's not enough to even go past Indifferent.

[Metastachydium]

It forces you into two levels of aristocrat and barely has enough strength to carry its own wealth by level in gold pieces. +0 seems okay to gain skill mastery of diplomacy and ignoring the penalty.


As a PC it's only the ability to take 10 and make rushed attempts. In combat, there is a high chance one of the party members could kill the Giver before they all fall under its influence, as it only has 1 HP. CR 1 seems reasonable. Also, a result of 29 is only enough to make an indifferent creature into friendly, not helpful, so it's not quite Charm Monster with no class level. If it comes to a rushed diplomacy attempt, then it's probably because we are in combat, and the opponent is hostile. Then it's not enough to even go past Indifferent.

That's not how I read it. "It can always choose to take 10 on a Diplomacy check, even if distracted or endangered. It ignores the standard -10 penalty for making a rushed Diplomacy check"; as written, this is a boost to all Diplomacy checks. That it also works on (fellow) PCs is just an obnoxious little cherry on its top. And automatically making anything friendly, even if it's immune to mind-affecting stuff and has a three digit Will bonus with a standard action while standing in a dead magic zone is not exactly what I'd call a 2nd level ability.

Also note that 29 is just the take 10 result; it can simply gamle and no-penalty-rush a normal check. Guy can't roll lower than 20, so even a hostile creature's attitude will neccessarily improve, and only a roll of 16+ is needed for hitting the DC 35 of friendly.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That's not how I read it. "It can always choose to take 10 on a Diplomacy check, even if distracted or endangered. It ignores the standard -10 penalty for making a rushed Diplomacy check"; as written, this is a boost to all Diplomacy checks. That it also works on (fellow) PCs is just an obnoxious little cherry on its top. And automatically making anything friendly, even if it's immune to mind-affecting stuff and has a three digit Will bonus with a standard action while standing in a dead magic zone is not exactly what I'd call a 2nd level ability.

Also note that 29 is just the take 10 result; it can simply gamle and no-penalty-rush a normal check. Guy can't roll lower than 20, so even a hostile creature's attitude will neccessarily improve, and only a roll of 16+ is needed for hitting the DC 35 of friendly.

It does not work on mindless creatures or those who do not understand you, and takes a full-round action, but yes, the ability is definitely really strong. It is an effective +10 to diplomacy checks in combat. That is a lot.

But also, two levels of suck and -8 to Str and to Con, and enough Dex penalty that it should act last pretty often (and thus get one-shotted for looking like a wizard but not having mage armor) for it don't seem like too small of a price. It might be min-maxxed, but is it broken? I would not say that yet. At least no more than regular diplomancer builds. Reaching +29 diplomacy is doable by level 5 if you go for it (Divine Insight and Beguiling Influence are your friends, as well as most of your enemies if you cast them), which the presented statblock clearly did.

Once again, I am not saying this is bad (obnoxious? De-he-hefinitely. But not bad.). This is something I would consider. But it does not look like an auto-pick unless you want to do exclusively diplomacy things (and even then, you have to work to survive the first rounds of combat against multiple opponents). It should definitely not be 1 RHD, but I would never take it at 4 RHD LA+0.

[Metastachydium]

It does not work on mindless creatures or those who do not understand you,

Hilariously enough, unlike the Charm line (which explicitly needs an ability to communicate with the target), Diplomacy (at least if the SRD is anything to go by) could as well simply work by way of puppy eyes and doing that thing with the eyelashes. But yeah, that's fair.

But also, two levels of suck and -8 to Str and to Con, and enough Dex penalty that it should act last pretty often (and thus get one-shotted for looking like a wizard but not having mage armor) for it don't seem like too small of a price.

Hrm. Technically, the physical penalties are from Venerable age. I wonder if those can be counteracted somehow… At any rate, even if this feller will rarely act first, in actual play we might assume there's a party nearby which can, in theory, bring the guy back into consciousness from anything barring a one-shot kill (certainly a real risk), and being able to use that main shtick without need for a line of sight and line of effect might go a long way if planned for.

This is something I would consider. But it does not look like an auto-pick unless you want to do exclusively diplomacy things

Aw! The Half-Elf is not alone in that club anymore!

It should definitely not be 1 RHD, but I would never take it at 4 RHD LA+0.

I'm still gonna give this weird side-eye to ECL 2, but that's more than fair again. How about the CR, though? I know CR is swingy and all that, but… Is a projected low initiative count really a good balance for having abilities that can end a fight before initiative is even rolled? I mean, unless the party knows what this is about somehow, this really looks like a "let's just talk" encounter, even though talking to the guy is a very bad idea.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Aw! The Half-Elf is not alone in that club anymore!

Sadly, that also means that, like in pretty much any group where the half-elf is not alone, it is outclassed there too...

I'm still gonna give this weird side-eye to ECL 2, but that's more than fair again. How about the CR, though? I know CR is swingy and all that, but… Is a projected low initiative count really a good balance for having abilities that can end a fight before initiative is even rolled? I mean, unless the party knows what this is about somehow, this really looks like a "let's just talk" encounter, even though talking to the guy is a very bad idea.

I mean, it's a quest-giver. It is supposed to tell people to go somewhere and do something, but not follow them. If the party wants to kill it, they definitely can by acting first and/or killing it from afar. If they don't, then it will not engage in combat and could not do any real harm if it did, especially since attacking someone would definitely shift their attitude towards hostile by a few steps. At worst, it can lead people into traps, but it's unclear how much "challenge" it poses.

[Metastachydium]

Sadly, that also means that, like in pretty much any group where the half-elf is not alone, it is outclassed there too...

I mean, it's a quest-giver. It is supposed to tell people to go somewhere and do something, but not follow them. If the party wants to kill it, they definitely can by acting first and/or killing it from afar. If they don't, then it will not engage in combat and could not do any real harm if it did, especially since attacking someone would definitely shift their attitude towards hostile by a few steps. At worst, it can lead people into traps, but it's unclear how much "challenge" it poses.

I don't know. If we go by fluff, that's correct, but is CR really a function of the fluff? It can absolutely inflict some nasty divide and conquer mindgma on a party and working in tandem with other opponents, can easily go beyond just that. It's not like CR is not used to calculate Encounter Level either, so it's amplifying the potential of an enemy team is certainly a factor one might want to consider.

[rferries]

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

Re: hit points - don't creatures have a minimum of one hit point per HD, like player characters?

Re: skill points - I was actually missing a +2 bonus to Sense Motive, but I don't see where I've overexpended skill points. n.b. there are a number of synergy bonuses and humans get extra skill points. I suppose I did cheat a bit by having it spring into being fully-formed at venerable age, but 3.5 skill points being non-retroactive has always been a bugbear of mine.

Re: bonus feat tag - After rifling through a few of the pdfs I don't think human bonus feats are usually marked as such (I've added it this time though :) ).

Re: LA, CR, etc - very fair points from everyone, both pro- and con. In the interests of maintaining tenuous RAW I've rewritten But Thou Must into a marker/explanation/etc; compare noble djinn, irresistible dance pixies, satyrs with pipes, etc. The actual Diplomacy enhancement is now a separate Master Diplomat feat a la Leadership (though hopefully not quite as broken haha). Finally, I've added the Diplomancer as an advanced quest-giver.

[Metastachydium]

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

Re: hit points - don't creatures have a minimum of one hit point per HD, like player characters?

Re: skill points - I was actually missing a +2 bonus to Sense Motive, but I don't see where I've overexpended skill points. n.b. there are a number of synergy bonuses and humans get extra skill points. I suppose I did cheat a bit by having it spring into being fully-formed at venerable age, but 3.5 skill points being non-retroactive has always been a bugbear of mine.

I swear I'm normally better at this. At least, like, halfway competent. In my defense, I didn't notice it's just a Human Aristocrat with a weird unique ability, and treated it as a 2 HD Humanoid with the subtype, hence missing the bonus skill points. And yes, I didn't consider the CON hit being big enough to eat whole HD, just made an automatic calculation using the averag. No excuse for that one beyond how my sensory organs must have glazed over when I saw the special ability.

Re: bonus feat tag - After rifling through a few of the pdfs I don't think human bonus feats are usually marked as such (I've added it this time though :) ).

Look, I did say it's ultimately immaterial! I just like to cross t-s and all that, even if that's overkill.

Re: LA, CR, etc - very fair points from everyone, both pro- and con. In the interests of maintaining tenuous RAW I've rewritten But Thou Must into a marker/explanation/etc; compare noble djinn, irresistible dance pixies, satyrs with pipes, etc. The actual Diplomacy enhancement is now a separate Master Diplomat feat a la Leadership (though hopefully not quite as broken haha). Finally, I've added the Diplomancer as an advanced quest-giver.

I like that solution, actually. And even though I'm wary of letting PCs have that feat… Let's be serious here, it's like Leadership and kinda even compared to Leadership. It can just join the latter in the "please don't or rocks fall" bin for DMs who don't want a stroke.