M&M 3 | Building Khidr

[Phhase]

I'm thinking about building a character in the current version of Mutants and Masterminds, and I'm mildly stuck. I have a good idea of the Things I want my character to be able to do, and have rough ideas on how to model most of them, but am getting a little bogged in the details.

The core conceit of the character (Provisionally named Khidr), is that they're a datawraith. They act almost exclusively remotely, and provide drone support and near-limitless knowledge to those acting on the ground. Anything with a circuit, is his domain. No online presence or piece of electronics is safe. His signature active ability is the Scarlet Ray of Analysis. It breaks down reality to its fundamentals, essentially allowing the user to access all information contained in any subject they regard, down to the smallest particle, limited by the user's cognitive capacity (which could certainly be a problem for a human, or even posthuman).

As far as his intrinsic nature, I think ranks in Insubstantial (Always on, Limited to machines) seems right, but as far as representing his supreme memory and the body of information at his disposal, I wonder if it's better to simply juice his Intelligence to a high number, and simply make do with Jack of All Trades and Edietic Memory instead of taking a bunch of skill ranks? I'm also debating subbing out Enhanced Trait (Limited to when he's possessing a machine with lots of processing power/memory, so pretty much always) to boost his int instead.

There is the question of Remote Viewing, but since he could hypothetically hack cameras/satellites or send out drones, it doesn't seem 100% necessary.

There's also the hacking angle: should that be modeled simply with high int and Technology, plus the Scarlet Ray, or would it be necessary to have some sort of Insidious Memetic Affliction that imparts controlled to electronic targets?

As far as the Scarlet Ray goes, unless I'm missing something, it seems like a good application for Versatile, confined to creating Sense powers, combined with Speed, Limited to cognitive and electronics tasks.

Any thoughts on how to square the circle?

[Grod_The_Giant]

As far as his intrinsic nature, I think ranks in Insubstantial (Always on, Limited to machines) seems right,

So he can phase through machines, but is otherwise tangible? "Data wraith" makes me think, oh... Insubstantial 4, Always On, Quirk (cannot penetrate more than an inch of nonconductive material), probably with Teleport, Medium (data) as an alternate.

but as far as representing his supreme memory and the body of information at his disposal, I wonder if it's better to simply juice his Intelligence to a high number, and simply make do with Jack of All Trades and Edietic Memory instead of taking a bunch of skill ranks? I'm also debating subbing out Enhanced Trait (Limited to when he's possessing a machine with lots of processing power/memory, so pretty much always) to boost his int instead.

Why not both? Intelligence 8 base, with a further 4 ranks when he's jacked into a computer. Either way, Int is probably the way to go here--if you care about more than three Int-based skills, it's cheaper to buy ranks of the Ability. (Although you could throw in Variable 1 (Skills and Traits), Reaction, Limited to Skills, which for the low, low price of 9pp would effectively give you +10 on every skill. It's a bit cheesy, but skills are also overpriced, and it does fit the character concept, so <shrug?>)

There is the question of Remote Viewing, but since he could hypothetically hack cameras/satellites or send out drones, it doesn't seem 100% necessary.

Agreed. You can always power stunt if it comes up.

There's also the hacking angle: should that be modeled simply with high int and Technology, plus the Scarlet Ray, or would it be necessary to have some sort of Insidious Memetic Affliction that imparts controlled to electronic targets?

Depends. A good Technology bonus might be enough for noncombat uses, but skill DCs are, ultimately, up to the DM. Affliction (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled), Limited to Electrical Systems doesn't leave any room for argument, especially if you throw in Comprehend 2 (Machines).

If you want combat hacking, though, you're going to need the Affliction, no bones about it.

As far as the Scarlet Ray goes, unless I'm missing something, it seems like a good application for Versatile, confined to creating Sense powers, combined with Speed, Limited to cognitive and electronics tasks.

Agreed, though you want Quickness, Limited to Mental Tasks, not Speed. Variable 1 (Senses) is hugely fun to play with, although you could also go with Senses 5 (Microscopic Vision 4, Analytical)--that would let you count individual atoms and "perceive specific details about anything you can detect")

[Phhase]

Very helpful, thanks a bunch!

So he can phase through machines, but is otherwise tangible? "Data wraith" makes me think, oh... Insubstantial 4, Always On, Quirk (cannot penetrate more than an inch of nonconductive material), probably with Teleport, Medium (data) as an alternate.


Why not both? Intelligence 8 base, with a further 4 ranks when he's jacked into a computer. Either way, Int is probably the way to go here--if you care about more than three Int-based skills, it's cheaper to buy ranks of the Ability. (Although you could throw in Variable 1 (Skills and Traits), Reaction, Limited to Skills, which for the low, low price of 9pp would effectively give you +10 on every skill. It's a bit cheesy, but skills are also overpriced, and it does fit the character concept, so <shrug?>)


Agreed. You can always power stunt if it comes up.


Depends. A good Technology bonus might be enough for noncombat uses, but skill DCs are, ultimately, up to the DM. Affliction (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled), Limited to Electrical Systems doesn't leave any room for argument, especially if you throw in Comprehend 2 (Machines).

If you want combat hacking, though, you're going to need the Affliction, no bones about it.


Agreed, though you want Quickness, Limited to Mental Tasks, not Speed. Variable 1 (Senses) is hugely fun to play with, although you could also go with Senses 5 (Microscopic Vision 4, Analytical)--that would let you count individual atoms and "perceive specific details about anything you can detect")

Pretty much on the mark with insubstantial, except for the fact that as an infomorph he can't really exist outside of a machine, and this is kinda shackled to them in a way. Otherwise he is always intangible (although you are right in that he cannot penetrate any area that is too simple/not electromechanical enough).

Good to know on the topic of skills. He is never going to be using a physical body that is his own, so his physical skills and things like fighting are going to be pretty bad, since they likely won't matter. Given dimensional relays and satellites, I should probably give him some sort of benefit that grants him private access to the Internet from almost any location.

The reason that remote viewing keeps nagging me is that I don't know if by default, since his "body" remains in the same place almost all of the time, if he can project his Scarlet Ray from any location he has vision of (such as through hacked cameras or drones). How should power conduits like that work?

Right, Quickness. Part of the affliction versus technology debate for me was the fact that (I think) there's an advantage one can take to make certain checks as routine, even while in combat, and then Quickness makes that even quicker?

Additionally, there's a thought I had about him being able to rapidly fabricate or modify technological items. Would that require move object/a separate instance of Quickness?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Good to know on the topic of skills. He is never going to be using a physical body that is his own, so his physical skills and things like fighting are going to be pretty bad, since they likely won't matter. Given dimensional relays and satellites, I should probably give him some sort of benefit that grants him private access to the Internet from almost any location.

The reason that remote viewing keeps nagging me is that I don't know if by default, since his "body" remains in the same place almost all of the time, if he can project his Scarlet Ray from any location he has vision of (such as through hacked cameras or drones). How should power conduits like that work?

That's a trickier question. For characters like this, I find it helpful to think about what their physical presence on the battlemap is like. How do they interact with enemies and allies? Do they project a hologram? Operate through drones? Once you identify what aspect of the character is actually there, you can use that as the mechanical base for your build. You want the part that's present to be the part with Toughness and saving throws and such--the game just runs smoother that way.

So, like, if your character lives in the internet and operates mostly by hacking, your "body" might be a pocket supercomputer than you have one of your allies carry around for you, or a swarm of small drones.

Right, Quickness. Part of the affliction versus technology debate for me was the fact that (I think) there's an advantage one can take to make certain checks as routine, even while in combat, and then Quickness makes that even quicker?

Ehh...sort of? The thing to remember about Quickness is that it's not supposed to change your action economy. I imagine you could have something like Agile Feint where you use Technology to feint and trick in combat, with the Quickness as sort of background justification, but I'd be hesitant to allow much more than that.

Additionally, there's a thought I had about him being able to rapidly fabricate or modify technological items. Would that require move object/a separate instance of Quickness?

Quickness + Inventor/Artificer/Ritualist is a classic example of "yeah, it technically works, but you really shouldn't." Using things like Create and Variable is more straightforward and better-balanced.

[Phhase]

That's a trickier question. For characters like this, I find it helpful to think about what their physical presence on the battlemap is like. How do they interact with enemies and allies? Do they project a hologram? Operate through drones? Once you identify what aspect of the character is actually there, you can use that as the mechanical base for your build. You want the part that's present to be the part with Toughness and saving throws and such--the game just runs smoother that way.

So, like, if your character lives in the internet and operates mostly by hacking, your "body" might be a pocket supercomputer than you have one of your allies carry around for you, or a swarm of small drones.

I imagine he'd mostly work through cat's-paws or other sorts of masks. One example I thought of was sending a trio of drones to help the main team, and act like they're some sort of special AI team thing, with names, cute little voices and each having their own specialty. In truth, they're just three basic quadcopters with a mounted energy rifle, hacking tools, and medkit respectively, shells that Khidr speaks through and pilots. Equipment pretending to be characters. Given that he's still a linear being, only one of the three would likely be "active" at any one time. As for battlefield presence, there's the buddy drones of course, providing general support, but they'd also "scan" things with the Scarlet Ray when the PCs need insights, and their hacking talent would likely seem somewhat uncanny in its complexity and breadth. Enemies might get texts or calls with conflicting orders, allies might get mysterious messages

As for how he manifests the presence, part of my headscratching comes from the fact that I envision himself as something of a paranoiac, who has sequestered himself in a small pocket dimension with his machines, and makes contact almost exclusively through broadcast signals and such. Maintaining his unperson status is important to him.

...is it insane to question if a high level Elongation would be appropriate for him to literally reach out and influence connected things and project the Scarlet Ray without actually having to fully travel to the location?

Ehh...sort of? The thing to remember about Quickness is that it's not supposed to change your action economy. I imagine you could have something like Agile Feint where you use Technology to feint and trick in combat, with the Quickness as sort of background justification, but I'd be hesitant to allow much more than that.

I see your point, but I was under the impression it wasn't supposed to influence your number of attacks, which is totally reasonable, since there's an advantage for that. It also specifically calls out that tasks requiring less than a second may be considered free, limited by the DM's discretion. While it is highly permissive language, there is at least some precedent for making some tasks usually relegated to out-of-combat quick enough to be used in-combat (within reason, naturally. I can totally see advanced hacks being a standard action. Plus as a linear being, I can totally see a limit of one new hack per round or somesuch).

Quickness + Inventor/Artificer/Ritualist is a classic example of "yeah, it technically works, but you really shouldn't." Using things like Create and Variable is more straightforward and better-balanced.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about wacky superscience shenanigans using Invention, mostly anyway. Just stuff listed under Building Equipment and similar such. Not even in bulk either, since he has no need for money, nor wishes to draw attention to himself. More like allies find convenient tools or weapons lying around sometimes, ghost cars come to pick them up, etc. That and silly things like "That bulldozer didn't have a gun emplacement on it a moment ago." The most advanced creation would probably be a robot shell persona for him to make "public" appearances in if he gets lonely (which he absolutely is), which I imagine would be some sort of construct Sidekick with no INT score.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have to say, I love how much creativity M&M brings out in players.

I imagine he'd mostly work through cat's-paws or other sorts of masks. One example I thought of was sending a trio of drones to help the main team, and act like they're some sort of special AI team thing, with names, cute little voices and each having their own specialty. In truth, they're just three basic quadcopters with a mounted energy rifle, hacking tools, and medkit respectively, shells that Khidr speaks through and pilots. Equipment pretending to be characters. Given that he's still a linear being, only one of the three would likely be "active" at any one time. As for battlefield presence, there's the buddy drones of course, providing general support, but they'd also "scan" things with the Scarlet Ray when the PCs need insights, and their hacking talent would likely seem somewhat uncanny in its complexity and breadth. Enemies might get texts or calls with conflicting orders, allies might get mysterious messages

As for how he manifests the presence, part of my headscratching comes from the fact that I envision himself as something of a paranoiac, who has sequestered himself in a small pocket dimension with his machines, and makes contact almost exclusively through broadcast signals and such. Maintaining his unperson status is important to him.

Cool, I dig it. In that case, I would build him as if those three drones actually were his body-- Shrinking 4, Innate so the individual drones are small, Elongation so you can "stretch" and have the three drone bodies fly in different directions, Senses 1 (Radius Visual) so you can "look" in multiple directions at once, Immunity 5 (Entrapment), Limited (grabbing only affects one body at a time) to take care of that edge case, and Quirk 1 (Only on body A/B/C) if you want the drones to have different weapons and/or tools, that sort of thing. And Immortality, combined with Feature 1 (self-destruct) will let you abandon your drones and build replacements whenever you need to.

Alternately, you designate one drone body as the primary and use Summon, Multiple Minions 1, Heroic, Mental Link, Continuous, Slow, Limited 2 (drones share your standard action) to supply your wing-drones, with Feature 2 (Mental Link from Summon counts as an Accurate sense) and Mind Reading 1, Sensory Link, Simultaneous, Limited (only my own drones), Limited (Sensory Link) to create the illusion

...is it insane to question if a high level Elongation would be appropriate for him to literally reach out and influence connected things and project the Scarlet Ray without actually having to fully travel to the location?

Eh, Elongation is pretty explicitly physical reach. For something like this, you'll need Remote Sensing.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about wacky superscience shenanigans using Invention, mostly anyway. Just stuff listed under Building Equipment and similar such. Not even in bulk either, since he has no need for money, nor wishes to draw attention to himself. More like allies find convenient tools or weapons lying around sometimes, ghost cars come to pick them up, etc. That and silly things like "That bulldozer didn't have a gun emplacement on it a moment ago." The most advanced creation would probably be a robot shell persona for him to make "public" appearances in if he gets lonely (which he absolutely is), which I imagine would be some sort of construct Sidekick with no INT score.

That's probably Create, Permanent. Or maybe Variable (Equipment), Continuous. Ask your GM.

[Phhase]

I have to say, I love how much creativity M&M brings out in players.

's why I became interested in it, the sheer Spheres-esque flexibility!

Cool, I dig it. In that case, I would build him as if those three drones actually were his body-- Shrinking 4, Innate so the individual drones are small, Elongation so you can "stretch" and have the three drone bodies fly in different directions, Senses 1 (Radius Visual) so you can "look" in multiple directions at once, Immunity 5 (Entrapment), Limited (grabbing only affects one body at a time) to take care of that edge case, and Quirk 1 (Only on body A/B/C) if you want the drones to have different weapons and/or tools, that sort of thing. And Immortality, combined with Feature 1 (self-destruct) will let you abandon your drones and build replacements whenever you need to.

Alternately, you designate one drone body as the primary and use Summon, Multiple Minions 1, Heroic, Mental Link, Continuous, Slow, Limited 2 (drones share your standard action) to supply your wing-drones, with Feature 2 (Mental Link from Summon counts as an Accurate sense) and Mind Reading 1, Sensory Link, Simultaneous, Limited (only my own drones), Limited (Sensory Link) to create the illusion

Interesting way of contextualizing it. Worried the abstraction might make it a little fiddly to operate though? The drone trio is just an example. Another thing that itches me is that Insubstantial 3 is mostly for flavor, since Khidr doesn't really leave his base himself. It's possible he could be a immobile AI-type construct, but is there another way to make a machine spirit? What about a heavily modified Permeate + Immunity(Life Support)?

Eh, Elongation is pretty explicitly physical reach. For something like this, you'll need Remote Sensing.

Fair enough, it was a (heh) stretch anyway. Besides, I think I may have figured out a way of more easily unifying the design. What about making the Scarlet Ray an Affects Others Perception
Sense power? That way, when he's using a cat's-paw, if he can see through it, he can grant it the power and it can relay the information to him. Naturally with limiters/quirks like (Only applicable to machines under his control capable of relaying information). If necessary, one might even make the drones minions if that's required to make it work.

That's probably Create, Permanent. Or maybe Variable (Equipment), Continuous. Ask your GM.

Huh. Those seem pretty strong. Don't really see much reason why they wouldn't work, other than a preference for working with materials on my part, rather than generating things ex nihil. How does Variable work, anyway? I thought it was mostly for duplicating other powers/power groups? And how would one apply Continuous to it? As for a GM, don't have one, I just felt a need to theorycraft M&M just in case!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Interesting way of contextualizing it. Worried the abstraction might make it a little fiddly to operate though? The drone trio is just an example. Another thing that itches me is that Insubstantial 3 is mostly for flavor, since Khidr doesn't really leave his base himself. It's possible he could be a immobile AI-type construct, but is there another way to make a machine spirit? What about a heavily modified Permeate + Immunity(Life Support)?

So there's this idea in M&M known as the "back-room psychic"-- a character who doesn't actually go out adventuring, but stays behind in a safe space and uses Remote Sensing (or something to that effect) to blast bad guys without ever putting themselves in danger. And it's usually considered bad form, since, you know, you're basically invincible unless the GM specifically goes after you.

That's why I keep talking about using your cat's paws as if they were Khidr's actual body, and using trickery like Immortality to give yourself any benefits that being a remote projection would normally grant you. If you don't want to use a drone--perhaps with Morph 2, Metamorph, Limited (Can only swap in certain locations) so you can switch between different versions as necessary-- I'd suggest making your "presence" a hologram projection, kind of like the Thinker does in the comics.



The simplest option is probably something like Insubstantial 4, Quirk 2 (can't pass through insulation) + Immunity 15 (Life Support, Biological Effects) to be a high-tech ghost, and Movement 1 (Dimensional Travel 1--Cyberspace) so you can hop into the internet. Throw in Teleport, Extended, Limited to Extended, Medium (internet) to broadcast yourself across the world, Comprehend 2 (Machines) and Affliction (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled), Limited to Machines) for hacking, Concealment 10 so you can turn off your hologram, and Immortality so you can reform back at your CPU if your data-wraith is damaged. That should cover most of the basics.

Fair enough, it was a (heh) stretch anyway. Besides, I think I may have figured out a way of more easily unifying the design. What about making the Scarlet Ray an Affects Others Perception Sense power? That way, when he's using a cat's-paw, if he can see through it, he can grant it the power and it can relay the information to him. Naturally with limiters/quirks like (Only applicable to machines under his control capable of relaying information). If necessary, one might even make the drones minions if that's required to make it work.

That's a pretty snazzy idea.

Huh. Those seem pretty strong. Don't really see much reason why they wouldn't work, other than a preference for working with materials on my part, rather than generating things ex nihil.

In that case, Transform (3pp/rank, disassembled to assembled and vice versa) instead of Create.

How does Variable work, anyway? I thought it was mostly for duplicating other powers/power groups? And how would one apply Continuous to it? As for a GM, don't have one, I just felt a need to theorycraft M&M just in case!

Variable essentially gives you a pool of free-floating power points that you can re-assign as an action; they remain assigned for as long as you sustain the power. It has to include some sort of thematic limit, but beyond that, there's no limit on how you can spend them.

[Phhase]

So there's this idea in M&M known as the "back-room psychic"-- a character who doesn't actually go out adventuring, but stays behind in a safe space and uses Remote Sensing (or something to that effect) to blast bad guys without ever putting themselves in danger. And it's usually considered bad form, since, you know, you're basically invincible unless the GM specifically goes after you.

That's why I keep talking about using your cat's paws as if they were Khidr's actual body, and using trickery like Immortality to give yourself any benefits that being a remote projection would normally grant you. If you don't want to use a drone--perhaps with Morph 2, Metamorph, Limited (Can only swap in certain locations) so you can switch between different versions as necessary-- I'd suggest making your "presence" a hologram projection, kind of like the Thinker does in the comics.

<snip>

The simplest option is probably something like Insubstantial 4, Quirk 2 (can't pass through insulation) + Immunity 15 (Life Support, Biological Effects) to be a high-tech ghost, and Movement 1 (Dimensional Travel 1--Cyberspace) so you can hop into the internet. Throw in Teleport, Extended, Limited to Extended, Medium (internet) to broadcast yourself across the world, Comprehend 2 (Machines) and Affliction (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled), Limited to Machines) for hacking, Concealment 10 so you can turn off your hologram, and Immortality so you can reform back at your CPU if your data-wraith is damaged. That should cover most of the basics.

That's more than fair. Didn't know it by those terms, but it's part of why the lion's share of Khidr's power is not in any sort of combat sphere. It's more about information warfare, manipulation, and knowledge than orbital strikes. Guess he's more of a Shadowrun character in some ways. Still, if it come off unpalatable to others, it's good to have alternatives.

That's a pretty snazzy idea.

Glad to hear it's an option that works (Forgot to include, it was a Variable (Affects Others, Sense, Perception)). Although, would it be Affects Objects instead of Affects Others? Albeit, Affects Objects seems more focused on damaging objects.

In that case, Transform (3pp/rank, disassembled to assembled and vice versa) instead of Create.

Does Transform work that way? I considered using it, but the language seemed a bit off. By "material" do they mean "base substance", as in like, alchemical transmutation, or is just a more general object type applicable here, like "cars to wooden footstools"?

Variable essentially gives you a pool of free-floating power points that you can re-assign as an action; they remain assigned for as long as you sustain the power. It has to include some sort of thematic limit, but beyond that, there's no limit on how you can spend them.

I see, I see. That's good to know. By the way, you mentioned Variable 1 (Reaction Skills) being able to grant an effective +10 to all skills. How's that work? I thought 1 level of Variable only resulted in 5 points? Where's the other +5 come from, stats?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does Transform work that way? I considered using it, but the language seemed a bit off. By "material" do they mean "base substance", as in like, alchemical transmutation, or is just a more general object type applicable here, like "cars to wooden footstools"?

Yup! The old Tech Power Profile included "Assemble: Ranged Continuous Transform (parts into finished machine)" at 4 points per rank. Transform is a pretty open-ended power, making it useful for weird edge cases. The more specific the power is about what you start and/or end up with, the less it costs.

I see, I see. That's good to know. By the way, you mentioned Variable 1 (Reaction Skills) being able to grant an effective +10 to all skills. How's that work? I thought 1 level of Variable only resulted in 5 points? Where's the other +5 come from, stats?

Skills are two ranks per pp.

[Phhase]

Yup! The old Tech Power Profile included "Assemble: Ranged Continuous Transform (parts into finished machine)" at 4 points per rank. Transform is a pretty open-ended power, making it useful for weird edge cases. The more specific the power is about what you start and/or end up with, the less it costs.

Ahh, good that makes a lot more sense, and makes things simpler.

Skills are two ranks per pp.

Oop, right, missed that.

Variable essentially gives you a pool of free-floating power points that you can re-assign as an action; they remain assigned for as long as you sustain the power. It has to include some sort of thematic limit, but beyond that, there's no limit on how you can spend them.

Wait, hold on just a minute, does that mean you could make like, a Variable (Headquarters) and have a weird shapeshifting base?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wait, hold on just a minute, does that mean you could make like, a Variable (Headquarters) and have a weird shapeshifting base?

Sure! Why not?

[Phhase]

Oh, by the way, does one pay the point cost of an Alternate Effect? Or only the +1/rank for the initial power? I figured not, given the section on responsible use of Alternate Effect but wanted to ask.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even better--it's a flat 1 point per alternate effect.