Assigning a score to all the conditions (and beyond)

[yisopo]

Hi all!

What score of power would you assign to each conditions if you would be able to apply it to a single target until the end of its turn?

I would like if you can include also the "unnamed conditions" like, for example, the ones present in these spells: mind sliver, mind whip, binding ice, silence, slow, synaptic static,...

[Skrum]

Blind: 7/10: provides adv on everyone's attack rolls, probable disadv on theirs
Charmed: 2/10: very situational. might not do anything. best case, locks up their turn, but more likely they just change targets
Deafened: 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Exhaustion (assuming 1 level): 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Frightened: 4/10: also situational, but a bit easier to exploit than charmed
Grappled: 5/10: might take their turn, might do nothing. but easier to use than charm or fear
Incapacitated: 6/10: takes their turn
Invisible: 1/10: benefits them lol
Paralyzed: 10/10: top tier condition
Petrified: 10/10: assuming they're small enough, shove them over and break them
Poisoned: 6/10: less impactful than blind, more likely to be immune
Prone: 4/10: situational, and turn order dependent. melee characters will like it
Restrained: 8/10: better than blind, as they also can't move
Stunned: 9/10: takes their turn, makes them vulnerable to str and dex saves, adv to attack
Unconscious: 10/10: paralyzed, for all intents and purposes

Dead: 11/10: the best condition to inflict

[RazorChain]

Charmed: 2/10: very situational. might not do anything. best case, locks up their turn, but more likely they just change targets

Charmed as per the dominate spell is even better than dead or paralyzed. You have taken their strength and added to your own and is even better when out of combat. Then you have suggestion which is a type of charm and you can tell people to go home and play with themselves even in a combat situation effectively taking them out without killing them. So 12/10 maybe?

[Skrum]

Charmed as per the dominate spell is even better than dead or paralyzed. You have taken their strength and added to your own and is even better when out of combat. Then you have suggestion which is a type of charm and you can tell people to go home and play with themselves even in a combat situation effectively taking them out without killing them. So 12/10 maybe?

I didn't rate suggestion or dominate; just the charmed condition. And all it does is prevent the charmed from attacking the charmer. 2/10.

[Rukelnikov]

Blind: 7/10: provides adv on everyone's attack rolls, probable disadv on theirs
Charmed: 2/10: very situational. might not do anything. best case, locks up their turn, but more likely they just change targets
Deafened: 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Exhaustion (assuming 1 level): 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Frightened: 4/10: also situational, but a bit easier to exploit than charmed
Grappled: 5/10: might take their turn, might do nothing. but easier to use than charm or fear
Incapacitated: 6/10: takes their turn
Invisible: 1/10: benefits them lol
Paralyzed: 10/10: top tier condition
Petrified: 10/10: assuming they're small enough, shove them over and break them
Poisoned: 6/10: less impactful than blind, more likely to be immune
Prone: 4/10: situational, and turn order dependent. melee characters will like it
Restrained: 8/10: better than blind, as they also can't move
Stunned: 9/10: takes their turn, makes them vulnerable to str and dex saves, adv to attack
Unconscious: 10/10: paralyzed, for all intents and purposes

Dead: 11/10: the best condition to inflict

I get the impression you scored them assuming it lasts until the beginning of your next turn, given some of your reasonings. OP asked until the end of this turn, so Charmed, Grappled, or Incapacitated have no chance to take the opponents turn for instance.

[Skrum]

I get the impression you scored them assuming it lasts until the beginning of your next turn, given some of your reasonings. OP asked until the end of this turn, so Charmed, Grappled, or Incapacitated have no chance to take the opponents turn for instance.

End of its turn. And yes I did :).

Which, now that I think about it, might mean no one gets to take advantage of the ability (if it goes next). I don't think that changes my ratings? I was just comparing them to each other.

[Chronos]

Blind can be much better than restrained against the right target, as it completely shuts down most spells and other magical abilities. Restrained does nothing at all to hinder the offense of a spellcaster who's not using attack-roll spells.

[Rukelnikov]

End of its turn. And yes I did :).

Which, now that I think about it, might mean no one gets to take advantage of the ability (if it goes next). I don't think that changes my ratings? I was just comparing them to each other.

You are right, I misread it :P

[Kane0]

Additional 'conditions'

Confused
Slowed
Enfeebled
Banished
Mind-whipped
Mind-spiked
Compelled-duel'd
Sanctuary'd
Unable-to-heal
Denied-reactions
Shrunk
Silenced
Cursed
Dancing

[Skrum]

Confused: 4/10: very random, always less impactful than I think it'll be.
Slowed: 9/10: shuts down all meaningful offense
Enfeebled: 3/10: enemy dependent, pretty underwhelming
Banished: 7/10: entirely shuts them down, but also protects them. strategically strong though
Mind-whipped: 6/10: nice little speedbump
Mind-spiked: 3/10: pretty small potatoes, all said and done. legendary resist brute forces around it
Compelled-duel'd: 3/10: situational
Sanctuary'd: (assuming this is on an ally...) 6/10: very good defense
Unable-to-heal: 3/10: usually does nothing, sometimes is integral
Denied-reactions: 4/10: do they have counterspell?
Shrunk: 2/10: underwhelming
Silenced: 3/10: niche. very niche
Cursed: (to lose actions?): 8/10: taking turns is really really good, and this doesn't rely on being used on a certain type of enemy
Dancing: 8/10: it's restrained, but more ridiculous. YMMV on the latter part


These are harder to judge; they're much more enemy dependent. On one hand, most are quite good against the appropriate enemy. But on the other, they're quite useless against the wrong enemy. I rated them more based on how often they'd be good to use, rather than how good they are against the perfect enemy.

[yisopo]

Skrum, thank you very much for your rating. It was exactly what I was looking for! :-)

Do you think, more or less, Restrained (you scored it 8) is twice as strong/effective as Frightened (you scored it 4)? This is just an example to understand the general meaning of your ranking system?

In general, how do you think we can translate (if possible) your scores in spell levels? A simple spell that only impose a score-4 condition to one target should be a level-X spell and a score-8 condition should be a level-Y spell?


P.S. What is the (pseudo-)condition cursed?

[Kane0]

P.S. What is the (pseudo-)condition cursed?

From Bestow Curse, one of:

- Choose one ability score. While cursed, the target has disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws made with that ability score.
- While cursed, the target has disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
- While cursed, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw at the start of each of its turns. If it fails, it wastes its action that turn doing nothing.
- While the target is cursed, your attacks and spells deal an extra 1d8 necrotic damage to the target.

The first and third are the most common selections in my experience.

[yisopo]

Blind: 7/10: provides adv on everyone's attack rolls, probable disadv on theirs
Charmed: 2/10: very situational. might not do anything. best case, locks up their turn, but more likely they just change targets
Deafened: 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Exhaustion (assuming 1 level): 1/10: likely won't affect anything
Frightened: 4/10: also situational, but a bit easier to exploit than charmed
Grappled: 5/10: might take their turn, might do nothing. but easier to use than charm or fear
Incapacitated: 6/10: takes their turn
Invisible: 1/10: benefits them lol
Paralyzed: 10/10: top tier condition
Petrified: 10/10: assuming they're small enough, shove them over and break them
Poisoned: 6/10: less impactful than blind, more likely to be immune
Prone: 4/10: situational, and turn order dependent. melee characters will like it
Restrained: 8/10: better than blind, as they also can't move
Stunned: 9/10: takes their turn, makes them vulnerable to str and dex saves, adv to attack
Unconscious: 10/10: paralyzed, for all intents and purposes
[...]
Confused: 4/10: very random, always less impactful than I think it'll be.
Slowed: 9/10: shuts down all meaningful offense
Enfeebled: 3/10: enemy dependent, pretty underwhelming
Banished: 7/10: entirely shuts them down, but also protects them. strategically strong though
Mind-whipped: 6/10: nice little speedbump
Mind-spiked: 3/10: pretty small potatoes, all said and done. legendary resist brute forces around it
Compelled-duel'd: 3/10: situational
Sanctuary'd: (assuming this is on an ally...) 6/10: very good defense
Unable-to-heal: 3/10: usually does nothing, sometimes is integral
Denied-reactions: 4/10: do they have counterspell?
Shrunk: 2/10: underwhelming
Silenced: 3/10: niche. very niche
Cursed: (to lose actions?): 8/10: taking turns is really really good, and this doesn't rely on being used on a certain type of enemy
Dancing: 8/10: it's restrained, but more ridiculous. YMMV on the latter part

Shouldn't Frightened and Poisoned be with the same rank?

Shoudn't Mind-whipped lower than Incapacitated?


Anyway, could you rank also: mind-slivered, binding-iced and synaptic-staticed?

[yisopo]

From Bestow Curse, one of:

- Choose one ability score. While cursed, the target has disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws made with that ability score.
- While cursed, the target has disadvantage on attack rolls against you.
- While cursed, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw at the start of each of its turns. If it fails, it wastes its action that turn doing nothing.
- While the target is cursed, your attacks and spells deal an extra 1d8 necrotic damage to the target.

The first and third are the most common selections in my experience.

The first 6/10?

The third one is less strong than Incapacitated, so 5/10?

[Skrum]

Skrum, thank you very much for your rating. It was exactly what I was looking for! :-)

My pleasure :)

Do you think, more or less, Restrained (you scored it 8) is twice as strong/effective as Frightened (you scored it 4)? This is just an example to understand the general meaning of your ranking system?

I wouldn't say it's twice as good; I more rated it for a combination of how applicable it is and how strong of an effect it is. If frightened is used against a character who's already in melee, all it does is disadv on their attack rolls. Or, if there's a target in the opposite direction from the source of the target's fear, they can just move to attack that target. It's both situational and not THAT powerful of an effect.

Restrained is more likely to steal turns (preventing all movement), gives the same disadvantage on attacks, and also gives adv on all attacks against them.

I will note though, I didn't think about Blind's power to shutdown most spells. Enemies that make attack rolls far outnumber the amount that can cast spells, but the ones that can cast spells are usually the more dangerous ones, so...YMMV. I rated Restrained slightly better than Blind because it's *more likely* to be the stronger effect on any given enemy, but the enemy that is hurt more by Blind is likely more powerful.

A rough explanation for the ratings -
1-3: low applicability and/or very weak effects (this category can be misleading, power-wise; I rated Silence here, though it might be extremely useful against the right enemy. Silence + grapple is extremely potent against most casters, for instance)
4-6: moderate effects with low to moderate applicability
7-8: moderate effects with high applicability
9-10: strong effects with high applicability

In general, how do you think we can translate (if possible) your scores in spell levels? A simple spell that only impose a score-4 condition to one target should be a level-X spell and a score-8 condition should be a level-Y spell?

Oh boy, there's a lot of variables there. Range, targets/AoE, saving throw targeted, and duration would all be large factors (especially the middle two).

Off the top of my head, with the caveat that this should probably be considered individually....?
For just a general ranking, let's assume we're taking about a spell that targets a single creature at up to 30 ft range and hits one of the main saving throws (Dex, Con, or Wis).
1-8: 1st level spell
9 or 10: 2nd level spell

Hitting a large area would definitely be worth at least +1 spell level
Targeting a less common save or not allowing a save at all, same deal

Shouldn't Frightened and Poisoned be with the same rank?

Yeah lol, if not switched...Frightened does everything Poisoned does, and more, and creatures are less likely to be immune to fear. Poisoned 4 and Frightened 5 seems more appropriate.

Shoudn't Mind-whipped lower than Incapacitated?

Yeah, for sure. This is what happens when I do the two lists separately. Upon review, I'd probably leave Incapacitate at 6 and bump Mind Whipped down to 4.

Anyway, could you rank also: mind-slivered, binding-iced and synaptic-staticed?

Hmm I thought mind spike was mind slivered. Slivered (-1d4 on next saving throw) I would keep at 3. Spiked (know their location, can't benefit from invisibility in regards to the caster is a 2 at best. Probably a 1 though, this is incredibly situational.

Static'd: 4
Blinding Ice: 5. It's effectively grappled

[yisopo]

All the information I asked and more, thank you again! :-)

Two very minor observations.


1) Prone and Denied-reaction may be 3/10. This has implications on the next point.


2) My proposal of matching between scores and spell-levels:
1-3: cantrip
4-8: 1st level spell
9-10: 2nd level spell

[Blatant Beast]

Charmed: 2/10: very situational. might not do anything. best case, locks up their turn, but more likely they just change targets

Sanctuary'd: (assuming this is on an ally...) 6/10: very good defense

As a point of discussion, Sanctuary and the Charmed Condition are performing very similar functions: both are forcing an attacker to target another person. In the case of Sanctuary there is a Saving Throw for each attempt, in the case of the Charmed Condition, once the effect lands, the condition alters the targeted creature's behavior, Legendary Resistance be damned.

As a DM, I remember at least 4 separate occurrences in which a creature was unable to drop an AoE on the party, due to being Charmed, and the charmer positioned themselves in such a way as to force an action change.

Advantage on Social Interactions is also not shabby, especially if the game follows the changing Attitude rules in the DMG.

I think I would consider the Charmed Condition to be closer in power to Sanctuary.
In terms of overall Condition Ranking, I agree with the position you have slotted it. Charmed is better against spell casters, Frightened can be devastating against melee focused combatants.

[Skrum]

As a point of discussion, Sanctuary and the Charmed Condition are performing very similar functions: both are forcing an attacker to target another person. In the case of Sanctuary there is a Saving Throw for each attempt, in the case of the Charmed Condition, once the effect lands, the condition alters the targeted creature's behavior, Legendary Resistance be damned.

As a DM, I remember at least 4 separate occurrences in which a creature was unable to drop an AoE on the party, due to being Charmed, and the charmer positioned themselves in such a way as to force an action change.

Advantage on Social Interactions is also not shabby, especially if the game follows the changing Attitude rules in the DMG.

I think I would consider the Charmed Condition to be closer in power to Sanctuary.
In terms of overall Condition Ranking, I agree with the position you have slotted it. Charmed is better against spell casters, Frightened can be devastating against melee focused combatants.

Fair enough; could def see the argument that they should be closer together. I rated Sanc higher cause it works against ALL enemies, providing strong protection for one character. Charmed works on a single enemy; I just find it to be a much more situational thing. Granted, when it works it probably has higher highs than Sanc.

[yisopo]

As a DM, I remember at least 4 separate occurrences in which a creature was unable to drop an AoE on the party, due to being Charmed, and the charmer positioned themselves in such a way as to force an action change.

Never thought about that. Very situational but very interesting too.

[Blatant Beast]

The Charmed Condition and Sanctuary work well in tandem. One of the games I ran, had a Open Hand Monk and a Lore Bard.

Target can not attack the bard, because of Charm, and the Target can not attack the monk, because the monk had their Sanctuary up.

Sanctuary, a scout's best friend.

[yisopo]

I want to thank everyone. All the valuable advice received here has contributed to the refinement of the latest version of my homebrew class, The Tactician - The mundane caster.