Mage Killer build

[mostlyharmful]

A) DC 29 is piddly, I can hit that without a high Wis.
B) So you built an item (IE made up your own rules) that somehow, redirects my teleport (with a higher then minimum DC, so even more made up rules) and then trace teleports me, and then teleports you to right where I am, all as a single immediate action that can occur when you are flat-footed, so it must be sentient, and it must have foresight always active on itself.

Congratulations, by declaring that we start in the same place, (for some stupid reason) that I get non of my protections, and never telling me what I see so that I never actually had any information, and by breaking about eight rules you managed to prove that:

If I can make a DC 29 Will save you can't even kill me with breaking the rules in a hypothetical situation in which you have infinite actions and I see you, but don't get to know anything about you.

Wow! You are quite possibly the worst human being I have ever spoken to (online). I don't mean that you are an idiot, or that you should have been able to kill the Wizard with all our cheating. I just mean that you are a terrible person because you are incapable of looking at the words in front of you and coming up with any kind of sensible response.

I'm gonna sign out of argueing this one now.

[kemmotar]

Ok...i do think we have established the fact that in a duel wizard wins since to have a duel the wizard is properly prepared, or out in a plain you have little chance of hiding. Even more so if you are far away, the wizard can just save or die you until you get there...so the only thing that does work is the wizard not knowing you are there. A composite greatbow with the 2xrange property is well outside greater prying eyes and pretty much anything that would detect you. You are up at the rooftops hiding in plain sight, thus the chance of the wizard seeing you is quite small(assuming assassin which i do think might actually work)...A save or die fort save(which is after all the weak save for wizards) even with a +6 cloak of resistance and a high int score on the part of the assassin makes your chances of getting the save pretty slim.

As it was pointed out correctly, a wizard can live in a genesis plane to which only he controls access to, cast MMM to get food and never leave the plain so s mage killer won't try to kill him the moment he steps out...Why did we want to kill the wizard again and would you make a character in a campaign that actually lives like that? we are not trying to prove why wizards can, if they don't want to be found, not be found...ever...but making a mage killer that can kill a wizard. I did point out in a previous post that everyone here should be reasonable in the build they make as in making a character that is campaign viable. A wizard living in an MMM in a genesis plane which he never leaves isn't a character you would make and play...there's nothing to play...you spend your days alone forevermore until you die of natural causes...You can make the plane have a slow time, you outlive the mage killer...good job...you won...

Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

Also, flaming and calling each other will eventually get a GM on your back and a warning...plus it's not fun watching 2 people continually saying "and then you die" to each other...this is a forum...be civil even if you don't like one another...

About finding a wizard that is not hiding in a genesis plane inside an MM...a level 20 wizard is a rare thing...people recognise you, you are hero known as a mage of unmatched power...you have saved a number of towns and villages or if you are evil slaughtered the same...someone that WANTS to find you can dispatch people to find you looking in every town there is rumor you might be. Plus, you wouldn't just stay in an isolated tower forever...you can't but you won't...there is no point in this argument, unless its set on a logical setting. If any level 20 character doesn't want to be found he won't be...

Besides if we're talking about a mage killer, one would usually think of an assassin type knowing very well that a straight "i'm here to kill you, prepare yourself" will result in immediate death in any number of ways...

One example of a logical setting is someone hiring you for a quest of epic proportions...said quest giver is in fact the mage killer. He then goes ahead to the place you're looking for and hides in preparation for your arrival. He is a rogue10/assassin10 with a +50 item to his hide and move silently sniping you from very far away...I realise this setting is unfavourable to wizards but no one is crazy enough to try and fight a wizards on the wizard's terms, that much is to be assumed. As for divinations to know his true purpose etc with divination...a permanent mindblank item solves this...as well as forsight...

[PaladinBoy]

Okay, I'm revising my earlier plan. I still don't want to limit myself to SRD only, but since Kaelik doesn't mind....

Anyway. We still have a dragonmark for flight, dim leap, and dim door. Probably will also keep some levels in the blade of Orien prestige class. However, the other levels will be in rogue and assassin. Specifically: Rogue 4, blade of Orien 10, Assassin 6. Necessary items include poison (black lotus extract) and perhaps some dragonmark-boosting equipment. All of it is well within a level 20 character's WBL.

The strategy: If possible, identify the location of the wizard's contingency focus and get rid of it with blade of Orien special abilities or Sleight of Hand. Then simply use dim leap to jump to and full attack wizard. The poison may or may not affect the wizard; if it does, I'd say the wizard is in trouble. Losing 100 HP to Con damage, on average, plus weapon damage......

If removing the contingency focus is not possible (which is the more likely situation) then we know that the wizard is leaving after the first hit lands - possibly before depending on how the contingency is worded. In that case, the best possible outcome is landing one hit with the poisoned weapon and praying the poison kills him. Given the 1-minute delay, that doesn't seem likely. Maybe UPD on an item of trace teleport, followed by a dragonmark SPA teleport to follow up? (Actually, that last might be done in the first situation as well, if the wizard ends up running.)

For that matter, the low poison save DCs might be a problem. Without an item, it could get above +10 easily (unless the wizard is venerable age, in which case it's less likely). With an item, the chances are even worse. The highest save DC for Con poison is 20; the wizard has at least a 50% chance. Not good odds, although it's better than many others.

Oh, and I think information gathering would be possible using mundane Hide, if it was done from maybe 200 feet away. If I'm not mistaken, that's outside the range of most special magical sensing abilities like tremorsense, and greater prying eyes Spot can't keep up with a rogue's Hide, I think. This, however, would be difficult, as it would involve finding the wizard as he went about his business. Manufacturing a problem might be possible, but would be risky, as the wizard would then be hunting you.

Oh, right. In order to survive the wizard's celerity + time stop trick, we'd have......... hmm. Probably would need an item for mind blank; that would protect against a lot of tricks. I'm not too familiar with wizard tactics, though; what am I missing?

Oh wait, elemental body. Hmm..... we might need to put the UPDed trace teleport plan higher up on the chain. Either that or try some dispelling tricks with magic/psionic items. That is verging on copying the wizard, though.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to manufacture some trouble to force the wizard out of his tower; a hostage situation perhaps? That has the time sensitive requirement which can really foil wizards, and you can use teleportation abilities to leave with the hostage if the wizard's buffs are still active. The wizard, at that point, would realize that he's playing into your hands, but you still have the hostage.

[Tokiko Mima]

Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

I'm not so sure. Foresight is a defensive buff spell, not an attack spell or an attempt to scry on thoughts or feelings or divine information about someone else. It's cast on one person (usually the caster), who only recieves warnings of impending danger to their persons and suggestions as to the best way to avoid it. It says nothing about the sources mental hostility toward them, and works against falling rocks as much as it does against an assassins blade.

For example, you can be murderously angry and stand motionless for several minutes right next to a person with Foresight and they would not read your intentions or know there was any danger. It's not divining anything in relation to the attacker. The moment you draw a stilleto, however, Foresight kicks in and warns the protected individual that there will be an attack and the best way to avoid it is to dodge left.

It just seems a stretch to say that Mind Blank stops Foresight simply because it's Foresight is from the divination school. Mind Blank
is meant to keep it's subject "protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" and "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." It doesn't ever give blanket divination magic school immunity like it does for all mind-effecting spells, just immunity to information gathering.

[kemmotar]

However, with a person it should work on a divining the intention basis. Sure it can warn you about falling rocks, but the danger is created by your intention. The act is just a manifestation of your intention. Thus knowing the moment you are being attacked is useless since the arrow would get there in less than one second. Thus it would need to "read" the intention to fire the arrow before you fire the arrow. As it would warn you about falling rocks before the rocks fall so you can take some action. Otherwise it would be doing what a spot check does:

-(forsight) rocks are falling on you
-spot check:5
-yes i see them...

same goes with warning someone, which is in the spell description. You need to be able to take some action before the attack, or at least a free action so you can warn them and then they too have to do something to avoid the attack. So i would think it's safe to say it doesn't just sense the action when it's being done, otherwise there is no time to take action.

You might say it works with rocks because they would automatically fail their save, as when scrying a non protected location. Thus you know beforehand because the "intention" of the trap is there. If that can be said...or it's just plain magic that magically warns you about falling rocks...anyway...personally i would rule that it does divine the intention of the attacker before attacking so you can take an action slightly before and before the attack reaches you. This would be reflected in the +2 to AC and reflex, it doesn't give a bigger bonus because of the time limit withing which you can take an action.

I asked in another thread whether or not you could prepare a swift action to move(with chronocharm of the horizon walker) as an arrow is being released or a spell being cast. Due to the almost instanteneous time it takes to reach you( 5 attacks in a round which is 6 seconds, 1.2 sec for each attack. Thus it takes less than 1.2 seconds for an arrow to reach you, you have to draw the arrow, string, take aim and then fire) is so fast that you won't be able to even act. Thus the conclusion was that you can ready a swift, or even move action to move out of the spell's radius or behind cover as the spell is being cast or as the bow is being strung. Following this i would assume that what forsight does is warn you so you can even take an action, albeit so small that only grants you +2 ac/ref so you can protect your vitals(ie SA doesn't work, you're not flatfooted since you know where the attack is coming from) and do something like duck, or move slightly away from the attack so that it might not catch you. Assuming that it takes 0.7 seconds to string an arrow, aim and fire(which it doesn't...) you get 0.5 seconds to act and nobody can move that fast, much less a wizard...Then if you have haste, you get 6 attacks a round, dropping the time for each attack to 1 second and the time to react to 0.3 seconds...anyway i think everyone got the gist of what i'm going on and on about so i'll conclude this:

All this of course is very artificial, but i'm trying to demonstrate that if forsight senses the action being done then there would be no time to react, therefore it has to sense the intention before the attack even begins to give you that one second or two in which you can react and therefore mindblank should work...

As a final note, if you can make a crazy damage archer build, with +5 arrows with a +2d6 properties, shrink them from huge size and get a bow with different +2d6 properties(do bow and arrow properties actually stack? I don't really know...but they might ). Get 6 attacks, with belt of battle 12 and with thrall of demogorgon (dual actions, both uses used) 24... a custom composite greatbow with +X str to damage, a crazy str score and a lot of dex and +to attack roll stuff the wizard is peppered with 24 huge arrows with every single +xd6 damage property in the game...forsight only grants +2 AC and you are not flatfooted so it's quite possible you will hit...

[Shotaro]

Now about forsight, mindblank would get pretty much rid of that since it is a divination that tries to read the emotions-intention of you trying to harm said wizard.Thus you do SA-death attack him...rapid shot to have him make two saves or die...

Emphasis mine

Rapid shot is a ranged ability and death attack in melee only, you gotta get close and TWF to force two saves.

I agree with the principle though, what with all the money spent on seemingly infinite metamagic rods MOST times this argument happens its unlikely the Wizard will have enough money left to burn on high bonus fort boosters. DC 25 is going to be pretty much the cap for that. Also if you go Rge 11/Asn 9 you get 11d6 sneak attack which averages at around 33 extra damage 4 times in the first round if you get the drop with greater invisibility and mindblank. Use a Rapier with improved crit feat and you've got a 25% chance of critting the normal weapon damage so if you TWF with a rapier you're looking at 4 attacks with sneak attack for 132 damage plus 4d6 average 12 dmg one of which is likely to crit leaving a minimum 147 (excluding STR and magic weapon bonuses) damage in a single round with +22/+17/+12 on the main hand and +22 on the off hand without the extra two weapon fighting feats that allow you to use it more than once. unless a wizard PERMANENTLY has an AC over 22 while flat footed (don't forget Greater Invisibility!) and more than average 147 + 35 (+1 STR +6 weapon with one extra added on for the 25% chance of a critical) 182hit points then its impossible but I dont think even clerics reliably have that kind of HP by that level

[kemmotar]

hmm...i didn't notice the "with a melee weapon"...dammit...would've been nice tho...anyway...the fighter 14/rogue1/thrall of demogorgon with starting dex 16 and str of 18, +6 str and dex item and +6 manual, +2 racial to dex, enlarge permanent for +2 to str give us str and dex of 32. Composite longbow damage is 1d8 for a medium creature. Shrink item and enlarge person give us 5 size increases which increases (according to the arms and equipment guide) 8d6 damage per arrow...since its a composite longbow we make it +11 str for a total of 1200 cost for the longbow without magical enhancement. We add +5 and corrosive,flaming, frost, shock and vicious properties for a total of +6d6 damage(actually i was looking for non elemental damage since resistance is a must have and it's far more than 6...any ideas?). So far we have 8d6+16+6d6 damage for each attack. 4 attack+1(haste). Belt of battle and dual actions give us 3 extra rounds. thus four rounds of attacks in one round, 20 attacks.

Average damage so far is 57 for each attack. 1140 damage on average if all attacks hit. BAB is +19/+14/+9/+4/+19. Dex modifier is +11 and weapon modifier is +5, thus +35/+30/+25/+20/+35...I'm pretty sure there's more attack roll to be had...adjusting for enlarge person -1 to attack roll, +34/+29/+24/+18+34. Forsight only grants +2 to ac. A few luck feats to reroll any ones that might disturb our precious routine, with particular mention to better lucky than good turning a natural one to a natural 20 for critical added goodness to the mix.

If we found the wizard and ambushed him then he is all stabitty stabitty now...burried under a barrage of gargantuan arrows...interesting isn't it?

You could add the 2x range increment property so you can snipe him from 220 ft away...

[Doresain]

No having a special extraordinary ability to use UMD to emulate magic effects to make magic items does not make them mages. Unless the proper feats are chosen which is not a given the class does not even receive enough crafting experience to double PC wealth much less enhance the rest of the adventuring parties' wealth.

I strongly disagree, IMO the Artificer is not one of the top 5 classes in most "normal" games just because it is popular on some of the boards, crafting even just scrolls takes time and money, I know an artificer can use his homuncoulous trick to craft while adventuring away from home, but any caster can craft items with a feat, lots of ways to do besides going full Artificer including a single level dip or a few level dips in Artificer or Chameleon -2.

Just take two flaws with a caster or other PC. Take the FRCS PGtF Mercantile Background feat if you want to acquire more wealth by level in game should bump you up close to +150% of standard wealth with some down time and selling items once a month because you get 75% of market vice 50%. With Mercantile Background PGtF and a crafting feat there is really no reason for a PC to adventure except to recover crafting experience since according to the DMG luxurious living style is only 200 GP a month

Take Craft Wonderous Item feat compromises one of the most commonly used magic item categories used by all PCs. For 1/25 market cost in experience points and 1 day a level at 1,000 GP you can basically double your wondrous magic item wealthor upgrade it earlier than normal by level since crafting a magic item takes 50% of market cost.

I understand the lagging level mechanics but it is also another way of losing a full caster level one of the cardinal No Nos for a caster. Usually what I find in games is that PCs do not level up perfectly there is usually some left over extra experience that is not applied to the PCs or all are level equally as long as crafting isn't abused as determined by your DM.

If you have a few casters in a group see if your DM will let them work as a team and take separate casting feats. If you have a rogue see if he will consider at least a 2 level dip in Chameleon for the open bonus feat which can be applied to crafting feats in most games since the Chamelon gets some spellcasting as an option.

IMO the class that removes most of that problem of being a regular scroll user in game is the Dragon Marked House Sivis Unbound Scroll -5 because he can use his Dragonmark ability to cast from a scroll without using it up so none of that extra cost replacing a scroll every time it is cast. (I really liked it for a sorcerer before the Beguiler came out, I House Rule it that any Dragon Marked heir can pursue the PRC at The Twelve). Going Artificer -1,(Wiz - 5 or Beguiler -6 (Beguiler is generally stronger than going Sorcerer IMO unless you are a Kobold Artificer -1, Sorcerer - 19 or (Sorcerer - 18 with Marshal - 1 Motivate Aura Charisma)), Unbound Scroll -5, +8X gives the PC Beguiler - 18 spellcasting, the ability to scribe scrolls as desired plus the ability to not use the scroll up when casting from it using Ghost Writing if desired powered by his Dragon Mark ability. Unless you are planning to playin a high level 17+ game with level 9 spells some dipping can provide benefits to the PC by delaying advancement by a level or two.

ummm...by level 7 an artificer gets metamagic spell trigger...meaning a level 7 human artificer can apply maximize, quicken, energy admixture and twin all to a wand of scorching ray...thats a total of 96d6 damage (didnt feel like doing the math for maximize)...next level he can take empower spell to add more dice to that...it uses up a lot of charges on a relatively low costing wand (about half if im not mistaken), but im sure that even a wizard with all his nifty little defensive spells up will recognize the artificer as a significant threat

[TimeWizard]

Given the old scientific maxim that "In theory, practice==theory; in practice, practice=/= theory" I have succesfully killed a wizard with a monk, and with rogue/assassin. It isn't that hard, the problem is people get stuck trying to out mechanic wizards- which is far beyond me in terms of skill. Get creative, and think with your mind. I wrote down two times my characters had to fight wizards, and how they won.

Spoiler

Show

(please forgive the lack of subtle or skillful tactics, it was my first character- I was still a newbie to DnD)
My monk had to face a wizard in single combat, and in mid-level games it actually is possible to beat wizards in initiative. Knowing that wizards usually start out flying I chose to delay my action (he was to far to run to). Wizard casts fly, my turn dimesion door- stand wizard's shoulders, end turn. My turn again, flurry of blows, and yes, surprise surprise, it did kill the wizard. The hard part was falling damage. Is this practical (or even repeatable?) No. But does it show that wizards are mortal? yes. It's one of those stories that could only have happened in an actual game as opposed to forums.

The real gem came from my favorite character of all (and my avatar)- an Assassin. This is where Gather Information comes into play. My task was to kill a wizard, who had taken over one of those cursed sites of arcane power that seem to be friggan' everywhere in DnD. Watching, waiting, planning, and time were my weapons. "Real" characters in a DnD world have weaknesses, you just have to find them, GI told me that he had a lover, a best friend, and a son. So I kidnapped them, which was a small adventure. My apprentice and some hired thugs go out in front of his tower and start threatening to kill the 3 hostages unless he comes down- but he's a wizard so he thinks (and rightly so) teleport in, grab them, greater teleport out. He teleports in, and apprentice assassin has a prepared arrow waiting for him. Contigent teleport sends him to a safehouse of his, which my assassin had infiltrated. One poison sneak attack and it was all over. Not the most cunning ruse ever, but the wizard did not have a second contingent teleport prepared.

You'll notice my strategies are laughably bad and easily thwarted on a board, which is true. A batman wizard wouldn't have friends or family. A batman wizard would let innocent children be killed outside his window... but what DM has ever thrown players at an advisary like that? It worked for me at the table- so think what could work for you!

[TimeWizard]

Rapid shot is a ranged ability and death attack in melee only, you gotta get close and TWF to force two saves.

Assassin's have a spell that lets them Death Attack up to 30'.

[Kaelik]

@Paladin Boy, nothing about Dragonmarks or Eberron is SRD, so your whole build can't be SRD, so I get to make a real Batman to counter it, not some Core thing. Though I'm not going to, because I only agreed to the first one because there are only 2 core ways to fly without spells or UMD, which was the agreement (though for some reason Psions became non casters somewhere in there, and someone decided to start making ridiculous custom items.)

@kemmotar

Foresight says very specifically that there is never a surprise round against you, and that you are never flat-footed. Therefore, the only way to get SA is by flanking, good luck. I don't care if you are Mindbalnked, I know where the dagger will be before it is there (or arrow) not because I'm reading your mind, but because the mystical forces of the universe show me exactly where the dagger will be.

Secondly, everyone likes to pull out Assassins, and that's fine. I usually just laugh. Even if the Wizard doesn't go Necropolitian (a wise and common choice) all it takes is a single casting of Elemental Body (with a Duration of hours per level) a 7th level spell. It gives immunity to crits/stun/paralysis and a whole bunch of other things.

What this means is that Sneak Attack can't work on the Wizard, ever. Sorry. And since SA can't work, the Assassin's Death Attack can never actually be used either. And that's not even bringing up Veil of Undeath, which if you read it very literally, actually gives immunity to Death itself (with a Duration of 10 minutes per caster level) as an eight level spell.

@Time Wizard, A high level Wizard should really use some buff spells, and shouldn't have his contingency be so easily wastable (I dislike the idea of having a contingency that goes off every fight, it should only be there for obscure and very dangerous situations, or alternatively, teleporting your body to a Cleric after you death. Though that become pointless when you can just Clone yourself.)

As for your first story, you should reread the rules on readied/delayed actions. You come back into the initiative order where you act, the rules are specifically designed to prevent someone from going twice in a row by delaying their action. It would have been the Wizards turn, and he would have been able to fly right out from under you.

[Woot Spitum]

One thing I'm noticing is that, while many ways to kill a wizard have been suggested, I have yet to hear a convincing counter to Foresight, outside of having foresight cast on yourself. Foresight is the key to everything, if you can't counter it, you can't kill the wizard. Thus the only convincing method of killing a wizard involves using a wizard spell, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.

[Fishy]

I think an SRD Bard could do it.

Cast Silence on a ball of sulphur and bat guano, make a DC20 Sleight of Hand check to plant it in the Wizard's spell component pouch. No save, no damage, nothing to trigger a Contingency, although the wizard gets to make a Spot check. Bard wanders off, zaps the nearest commoner with a Suggestion to go and beat the wizard with a stick.

The wizard doesn't lose his *entire* spell list, particularly if he made paranoid use of the Silent Spell metamagic, or is an Archmage who took Time Stop as an SLA, or... Yeah, nevermind.

[CASTLEMIKE]

ummm...by level 7 an artificer gets metamagic spell trigger...meaning a level 7 human artificer can apply maximize, quicken, energy admixture and twin all to a wand of scorching ray...thats a total of 96d6 damage (didnt feel like doing the math for maximize)...next level he can take empower spell to add more dice to that...it uses up a lot of charges on a relatively low costing wand (about half if im not mistaken), but im sure that even a wizard with all his nifty little defensive spells up will recognize the artificer as a significant threat

Very nice and might be doable by RAW in some games depending on the campaign and the DM reviewing the Meta Spell Feats.

Artificers can't cast spells except from Scrolls. Can a non caster take a feat that modifies spellcasting before acquiring the class special that would permit it? IMO No, it should be treated just like Druid Wild Shaping class special which can be improved after acquired usally by leveling, class other specials, Feats or PRCs. Meta spell feats have there foundation on spellcasting.

It only takes an Artificer who receives crafting feats 5 Feats to pull off that combo: Energy Admixture +4 (which requires the Energy Substitution feat and Arcana - 5), Maximize +3, Quicken +4, Twin Spell +4 so he can add it to a wand of scorching ray.

I have several concerns with that combination which is primarily based on +4 Meta spell feats.

First it requires 5 Spellcasting Feats for a non caster and includes 4 before he can scribe level 4 spells in game like +4 Meta Cantrips and it only works in a game with the Flaw variant. All of those things are not givens in all campaigns.

Artificers don't cast spells they cast Infusions, there are no level 0 Infusions and at level 7 the Artificer can only cast up to level 3 Infusions although he can "BEGIN" Scribing level 4 Spell Scrolls. Most of the feats in that combo are +4 Meta feats that modify "spellcasting". I have no issue with an Artificer taking them in game as soon as he can actually use them in game after acquiring the Metamagic Spell Trigger class special.

It is only now at level 7 that the Artificer can even scribe a level 4 spell scroll which includes +4 Meta Cantrips at 700 GP market price (and using UMD he shouldn't need Any of those feats to do it with his class specials), but at level 7 the Artificer isn't picking up any new feats. So what kind of campaign is allowing PCs to take those feats before they can be used in game and weren't needed to Scribe scrolls anyway? What kind of leveling up campaign is an Artificer pursuing this build at the cost of 5 feats? IMO even if permissable in a leveling up campaign that most Artifcer players would actually pursue this build because it is basically over costly to the PC until level 7.

Suggested Level 7 wealth is 19,000 GP and a Wand of Scorching Ray with 50 Charges is 4,500 GP and an excellent meta spell choice.

Energy Admixture +4 (Requires the Energy Substitution and Arcana - 5), Maximize +3, Quicken +4, Twin Spell +4 so he can add it to a wand of scorching ray. By my calculations you get 3 shots per fully charged wand 1 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 16 charges. Could it be effective sure if it is allowed in game.

[TimeWizard]

I commend you, Kaelik, on the brutal victories you have made on this thread. Truely you are a poster among posters in your ardent defense of wizards, with insight into spells and synergy second to no other. I am amazed at the plethora of strategies you have found to thwart an attempt to be defeated, in any situation, under any circumstance. If only others were awakened to this knowledge, what a terrible mess all D&D would be in.

As for your first story, you should reread the rules on readied/delayed actions. You come back into the initiative order where you act, the rules are specifically designed to prevent someone from going twice in a row by delaying their action. It would have been the Wizards turn, and he would have been able to fly right out from under you.

Huh. If my group had known that I'd have needed a new strategy- we've been using that trick for a while. What's the DC on a Balance check to avoid falling off a flying wizard?

*edit, tangent thought* Why is it that no one mentions items that create antimagic fields? I know it must have been brought up before... what gives?

[Doresain]

im pretty sure you dont need to take flaws in order to get 5 feats as a human artificer...you get two at first, one at third, one at fourth (this is the one im iffy about, because i cant remember if you can take metamagic feats for it or not) and a last one at sixth...getting the feats isnt a problem

and i dont know why it wouldnt be allowed in a game where the object is to kill an optimized batman

[CASTLEMIKE]

im pretty sure you dont need to take flaws in order to get 5 feats as a human artificer...you get two at first, one at third, one at fourth (this is the one im iffy about, because i cant remember if you can take metamagic feats for it or not) and a last one at sixth...getting the feats isnt a problem

and i dont know why it wouldnt be allowed in a game where the object is to kill an optimized batman

Missed the part in the post that specified human Artificer. Yes an Artifcier gets a singleclass special bonus feat at levesl 4, 8,12, 16 and 20 which may be used to acquire a Meta feat or specific feat.

At level 4 an Artificer can only cast level 2 Infusions. I have no issue with an Artificer taking a +1 Meta feat because he can use level 2 Infusions things like a level 1 Infusion with a +1 Meta.

It boils down to a RAW issue for what the meta feats do and your game. The meta spell feats modify spellcasting. Can a non caster who can't cast spells take them in your games? Can a caster who can't cast a spell of the required level after the spell is modified by the meta feat take that feat? If both of those are true in a campaign what percentage of players would actually take advantage of that opportunity leveling up in a game?

The Artificer can't cast level 4 or 5 Infusions in game at level 4 or level 7 when he acquires the class Metamagic Spell Trigger special he doesn't pick up any other bonus beats until level 9 and 12.

[CASTLEMIKE]

One thing I'm noticing is that, while many ways to kill a wizard have been suggested, I have yet to hear a convincing counter to Foresight, outside of having foresight cast on yourself. Foresight is the key to everything, if you can't counter it, you can't kill the wizard. Thus the only convincing method of killing a wizard involves using a wizard spell, which sorta defeats the whole purpose of the exercise.

All I want is consistent rules in a game. Mind Blank the spell certainly defeats Foresight the Divination spell since that is what it is specifically designed to do. If a Mind blank Psionic Personal or a Mind Blank Psionic wouldn't in your game I'd spend a little more money for a level 8 Mindblank item with a 30% discount for keying it to my alignment and another -10% tying it to an easy skill check. Extended Foresights via meta rods only works as general standard tactics when the non casters are further limited and denied access to magic that provides Mindblank in game and they shouldn't be with the wealth available to them to address a "standard" tactic and standard item creation rules.

The applicable spells and powers are listed below the magic items:

Anti Magic Torc is only 25,000 GP FRCS Underdark and usable 1/Day uses Craft Wondrous Item and Anti Magic Spell. Core Rules have magic item creation rules, the alternative source book b is really only providing the cost mechanic for a core feat and a core spell to defeat standard spells like Foresight.

Psionics is core with the SRD. Personal Mind Blank is a level 6 power which lasts 24 hours and defeats Foresight. Purchase a Anti Mind Blank Amulet, Torc or Crown and based on the Anti Magic Torc it should be around 25,000 GP. If it had to be created with the level 8 spell Mind Blank for a debate include the creation cost reduction rules -30% for an alignment, - 10% for a skill requirement so a -40% market price reductions using core rules.

At level 20 suggested wealth is 760,000 GP.


Foresight
Divination
Level: Drd 9, Knowledge 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: See text
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless)

This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Arcane Material Component
A hummingbird’s feather.



Mind Blank
Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

[Armads]

Psionics is core with the SRD. Personal Mind Blank is a level 6 power which lasts 24 hours and defeats Foresight. Purchase a Anti Mind Blank Amulet, Torc or Crown and based on the Anti Magic Torc it should be around 25,000 GP. If it had to be created with the level 8 spell Mind Blank for a debate include the creation cost reduction rules -30% for an alignment, - 10% for a skill requirement so a -40% market price reductions using core rules.

Custom items creation guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They require DM approval, so they cannot be used in a RAW discussion. Using the custom item guidelines, items of 1/eternity are allowed (and cost nothing). So are 1-charge magic items (which are basically scrolls which do not need checks to activate). And the cost reduction rules are utterly ridiculous. They let you get a +5 weapon for 25k gp.

Also, Psionic Mind Blank does not defeat Foresight. It only protects against Mind-Affecting spells and Scrying spells.

[Lokey]

*edit, tangent thought* Why is it that no one mentions items that create antimagic fields? I know it must have been brought up before... what gives?

Because AMF isn't crippling to Batman, but it is annoying. Force cage still works, etc...

[mostlyharmful]

I don't see why a wiz20 needs to leave his tower all the time, with a crystal ball with telepathy he could have a conversation with anyone including agents or bankers to pay said agents. With callable minions he has access to cleric magic and reliable high powered agents. With Astral Projection he has a very save way to get involved in events outside his tower if he really needs to. and if he wants friends and relations he can make them able to access his tower/plane so long as they pass through the arch which casts greater dispel on them. Not fool proof but pretty safe. and he's playable (esspecially if you can make an item of astral projection that cuts out the Material cost and it doesn't have a duration on it)

[CASTLEMIKE]

Custom items creation guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They require DM approval, so they cannot be used in a RAW discussion. Using the custom item guidelines, items of 1/eternity are allowed (and cost nothing). So are 1-charge magic items (which are basically scrolls which do not need checks to activate). And the cost reduction rules are utterly ridiculous. They let you get a +5 weapon for 25k gp.

Also, Psionic Mind Blank does not defeat Foresight. It only protects against Mind-Affecting spells and Scrying spells.

I disagree, of course they are the rules, the RAW since they are included in the DMG and the SRD explaining exactly how they apply to the item crafting feats. Only when a debate specifically limits Item Crafting feats would they be off limits. OT for this thread is Mage Killer Builds.

The crafting feats are not limited to creating just the magic items in the DMG or SRD. As long as a person is only using core feats, core powers, core spells and the core rules for a magic item it is a legitimate use with suggested wealth by level.

All the other source book is doing is validating the cost mechanic so other posters can't say the price was lowballed for the discussion like you are attempting.

Even suggested wealth by level requires DM approval in most games, things like sacks of Candles of Invocation or Miracle and Wish Rings and Scrolls.

Mindblank may not defeat the Foresight "Divination" spell in your games but that is not a given in most games. What I find irritating on the boards is the general consensus that Mind Blank spell or power works exactly as written when it can only be utilized by the fullcaster PCs in game to protect their fullcaster from all divinations, while limiting other players access to the spell since few and far are the campaigns where a full spellcaster will Mindblank a party day after day with some of his most powerful spells.

The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

If the standard premise is that wizards - 20 are "generally" going to have Foresight up when they leave their private demi-planes or MMM or an extended Foresight via spell or meta rod on the boards and not in games. "Generally" other level 20 PCs will counter that tactic on the boards and in game with a fraction of their 760,000 GP suggested wealth ensuring the wizards have to keep burning those spell slots.

All the 25,000 GP Torcs do for noncasters is change the encounter from an almost guaranteed cheesy singe round win for a wizard. They don't guarantee a win. A good wizard should be able to adapt to some of these basic tactics and strategies and circumvent them just like a good player should be able to capitalize on a mistake by the wizard. l

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...MagicItems.htm

Magic Items
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation. Creating 

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). 

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. 

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price. 

Armor, shields, weapons, and items with a value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies and the experience point cost), but it does increase the final market price. 

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item. 

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process. 

The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. 

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted. 

The secrets of creating artifacts are long lost. 

Table: Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs Magic Item Feat Item Cost Spell Component Costs Magic Supplies Cost Base Price4 
Material2 XP3 
Rods usable as weapons must include the masterwork weapon cost. 
This cost is only for spells activated by the item that have material or XP components. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost if the item doesn’t actually cast the spell. 
If purchasing a staff, the buyer pays 5 × the XP value in gold pieces. 
A character creating an item pays 1/25 the base price in experience points. 
Some items have additional value from a masterwork item component. 
An item’s market price is the sum of the item cost, spell component costs, and the base price. 
 
Armor Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
armor Cost × 50
(usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Armor and Shields Value on Table: Armor and Shields 
Shield Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
shield × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Armor and Shields Value on Table: Armor and Shields 
Weapon Craft Magic
Arms And Armor Masterwork
weapon × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none) × 5 gp ½ the value on Table: Weapons Value on Table: Weapons 
Potion Brew Potion — Cost (usually none) Cost (usually none) 25 × level of spell × level of caster 50 × level of spell × level of caster 
Ring Forge Ring — × 50 × 50 × 5 gp Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values 
Rod Craft Rod —1 × 50 (often none) × 50 (often none) Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values 
Scroll Scribe Scroll — Cost (usually none) Cost (usually none) 12.5 × level of spell × level of caster 25 × level of spell × level of caster 
Staff Craft Staff Masterwork
quarterstaff × 50 / (# of charges
used to activate spell) × 50 × 5 gp / (# of charges
used to activate spell) See Creating Staffs See Creating Staffs 
Wand Craft Wand — × 50 × 50 × 5 gp 375 × level of spell × level of caster 750 × level of spell × level of caster 
Wondrous
Item Craft
Wondrous Item —5 × 50 (usually none) × 50 (usually none)× 5 gp Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values Special, see Table: Estimating Magic
Item Gold Price Values 
Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price. 
Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus. 
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. 
See Body Slot Affinities. 
An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double. 
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges. 
 
Effect Base Price Example 
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp +1 chainmail 
Bonus spell Spell level1 squared × 1,000 gp Pearl of power 
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Ring of protection +3 
AC bonus (other)2 Bonus squared × 2,500 gp Ioun stone, dusty rose prism 
Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Amulet of natural armor +1 
Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp Cloak of resistance +5 
Save bonus (other)2 Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Stone of good luck 
Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared × 100 gp Cloak of elvenkind 
Spell resistance 10,000 gp per point over SR 12; SR 13 minimum Mantle of spell resistance 
Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp +1 longsword 
Spell Effect Base Price Example 
Single use, spell completion Spell level1 × caster level × 25 gp Scroll of haste 
Single use, use-activated Spell level1 × caster level × 50 gp Potion of cure light wounds 
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level1 × caster level × 750 gp Wand of fireball 
Command word Spell level1 × caster level × 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank 
Use-activated or continuous Spell level1 × caster level × 2,000 gp3 Lantern of revealing 
Special Base Price Adjustment Example 
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) Boots of teleportation 
Uncustomary space limitation4 Multiply entire cost by 1.5 Helm of teleportation 
No space limitation5 Multiply entire cost by 2 Ioun stone 
Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5 Helm of brilliance 
Charged (50 charges) ½ unlimited use base price Ring of the ram 
Component Extra Cost Example 
Armor, shield, or weapon Add cost of masterwork item +1 composite longbow 
Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge6 Wand of stoneskin 
Spell has XP cost Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge6 Ring of three wishes 

Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values. 

Multiple Similar Abilities
For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. 

Multiple Different Abilities
Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. 

0-Level Spells
When multiplying spell levels to determine value, 0-level spells should be treated as ½ level. 

Other Considerations
Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies: 

Item Requires Skill to Use
Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%. 

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%. 

Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item’s caster level) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item. 

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item. 

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls. 

Masterwork Items
Masterwork items are extraordinarily well-made items. They are more expensive, but they benefit the user with improved quality. They are not magical in any way. However, only masterwork items may be enhanced to become magic armor and weapons. (Items that are not weapons or armor may or may not be masterwork items.) 

Creating Magic Armor
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item. 

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. 

Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Armor Special Abilities and Table: Shield Special Abilities. 

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

Creating some armor may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Magic Arms and Armor. 

Creating Magic Weapons
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic weapon—half the base price given on Table: Weapons, according to the weapon’s total effective bonus. 

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. 

A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any of the abilities listed on Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities or Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities. 

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

At the time of creation, the creator must decide if the weapon glows or not as a side-effect of the magic imbued within it. This decision does not affect the price or the creation time, but once the item is finished, the decision is binding. 

Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities. 

Creating some weapons may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Crafting a magic weapon requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Magic Arms and Armor. 

Creating Potions
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. 

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.) 

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. 

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. 

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Brew Potion. 

Table: Potion Base Prices (By Brewer’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Prices assume that the potion was made at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp — 
1st 50 gp 50 gp 100 gp 100 gp 
2nd 300 gp 400 gp 400 gp 400 gp 
3rd 750 gp 900 gp 1,050 gp 750 gp 
Table: Base Cost to Brew a Potion (By Brewer’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Costs assume that the creator makes the potion at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP — 
1st 25 gp +2 XP 25 gp +2 XP 50 gp +4 XP 50 gp +4 XP 
2nd 150 gp +12 XP 200 gp +16 XP 200 gp +16 XP 200 gp +16 XP 
3rd 375 gp +30 XP 450 gp +36 XP 525 gp +42 XP 375 gp +30 XP 

Creating Rings
To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the ring. Ring costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the ring prices in the ring descriptions as a guideline. Creating a ring generally costs half the ring’s market price. 

Rings that duplicate spells with costly material or XP components add in the value of 50 × the spell’s component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

Creating some rings may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Forging a ring requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Forge Ring. 

Creating Rods
To create a magic rod, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a rod or the pieces of the rod to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the rod. Rod costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the rod prices in the rod descriptions as a guideline. Creating a rod costs half the market value listed. 

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

Creating some rods may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Crafting a rod requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Rod. 

Creating Scrolls
To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. 

All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell. 

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) 

Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Scribe Scroll. 

Table: Scroll Base Prices (By Scriber’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Prices assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 12 gp 5 sp 12 gp 5 sp 12 gp 5 sp — 
1st 25 gp 25 gp 50 gp 50 gp 
2nd 150 gp 200 gp 200 gp 200 gp 
3rd 375 gp 450 gp 525 gp 375 gp 
4th 700 gp 800 gp 1,000 gp 700 gp 
5th 1,125 gp 1,250 gp 1,625 gp — 
6th 1,650 gp 1,800 gp 2,400 gp — 
7th 2,275 gp 2,450 gp — — 
8th 3,000 gp 3,200 gp — — 
9th 3,825 gp 4,050 gp — — 
Table: Base Magic Supplies and XP Cost to Scribe a Scroll (By Scriber’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Costs assume that the creator makes the scroll at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP 6 gp 2 sp 5 cp +1 XP — 
1st 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 12 gp 5 sp +1 XP 25 gp +1 XP 25 gp +2 XP 
2nd 75 gp +6 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP 100 gp +8 XP 
3rd 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 225 gp +18 XP 262 gp 5 sp +21 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 
4th 350 gp +28 XP 400 gp +32 XP 500 gp +40 XP 350 gp +28 XP 
5th 562 gp 5 sp +45 XP 625 gp +50 XP 812 gp 5 sp +65 XP — 
6th 826 gp +66 XP 900 gp +72 XP 1,200 gp +96 XP — 
7th 1,135 gp 5 sp +91 XP 1,225 gp +98 XP — — 
8th 1,500 gp +120 XP 1,600 gp +128 XP — — 
9th 1,912 gp 5 sp +153 XP 2, 025 gp +162 XP — — 

Creating Staffs
To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled. 

The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. 

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells. 

The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component costs sufficient to activate the spell a maximum number of times (50 divided by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). This is in addition to the XP cost for making the staff itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

Creating a few staffs may entail other prerequisites beyond spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Crafting a staff requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Staff. 

Creating Wands
To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand—375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. 

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) 

Crafting a wand requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Wand. 

Table: Wand Base Prices (By Crafter’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 375 gp 375 gp 375 gp — 
1st 750 gp 750 gp 1,500 gp 1,500 gp 
2nd 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp 
3rd 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 15,750 gp 11,250 gp 
4th 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 30,000 gp 21,000 gp 
Table: Base Magic Supplies and XP Cost to Craft a Wand (By Crafter’s Class) Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 
Caster level is half class level. 
Costs assume that the creator makes the wand at the minimum caster level. 
 
0 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP 187 gp 5 sp +15 XP — 
1st 375 gp +30 XP 375 gp +30 XP 750 gp +60 XP 750 gp +60 XP 
2nd 2,250 gp +180 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP 3,000 gp +240 XP 
3rd 5,625 gp +450 XP 6,750 gp +540 XP 7,875 gp +630 XP 5,625 gp +450 XP 
4th 10,500 gp +840 XP 12,000 gp +960 XP 15,000 gp +1200 XP 10,500 gp +840 XP 

Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item. Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values and use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline. Creating an item costs half the market value listed. 

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) 

Creating some items may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. 

Crafting a wondrous item requires one day for each 1,000 gp of the base price. 

Item Creation Feat Required
Craft Wondrous Item. 

Intelligent Item Creation
To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section. 

Adding New Abilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. 

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5. 

Table: Body Slot Affinities Body Slot Affinity 
Headband, helmet Mental improvement, ranged attacks 
Hat Interaction 
Phylactery Morale, alignment 
Eye lenses, goggles Vision 
Cloak, cape, mantle Transformation, protection 
Amulet, brooch, medallion,
necklace, periapt, scarab Protection, discernment 
Robe Multiple effects 
Shirt Physical improvement 
Vest, vestment Class ability improvement 
Bracers Combat 
Bracelets Allies 
Gloves Quickness 
Gauntlets Destructive power 
Belt Physical improvement 
Boots Movement 
Body Slot Affinities
Each location on the body, or body slot, has one or more affinities: a word or phrase that describes the general function or nature of magic items designed for that body slot. Body slot affinities are deliberately broad, abstract categorizations, because a hard-and-fast rule can’t cover the great variety among wondrous items. 

You can use the affinities in the list below to guide your decisions on which magic items should be allowed in which body slots. And when you design your own magic items, the affinities give you some guidance for what form a particular item should take. 

Some body slots have different affinities for different specific items. 

Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity.

[Kaelik]

Can a non caster take a feat that modifies spellcasting before acquiring the class special that would permit it?

I don't understand what you are saying here. To take a feat all you need is to meat the pre-reqs. No single Metamagic Feat has a pre-req of being able to cast spells. The Artificer even gets Metamagic spells as bonus feats. I see no logic in not letting them take metamagic feats if they choose.

And Castlemike. Please spoiler that, or just link it, that's a whole lot to scroll through for just being a copy paste job.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I don't understand what you are saying here. To take a feat all you need is to meat the pre-reqs. No single Metamagic Feat has a pre-req of being able to cast spells. The Artificer even gets Metamagic spells as bonus feats. I see no logic in not letting them take metamagic feats if they choose.

And Castlemike. Please spoiler that, or just link it, that's a whole lot to scroll through for just being a copy paste job.

No the metamagic spell feats don't have a specific prerequisite listed although they all provide a "benefit" to spellcasting in their descriptions or charts. What do all those metamagic spell feats do? Those metamagic spell feats Modify a class special ability Spellcasting, is it a given in all games that a DM will allow non casters to take those feats which modify the class special ability of Spellcasting? IMO No. Is it a given a DM will allow a PC caster to take a feat he does not have sufficient level to utilize to modify his class spellcasting ability or other class special like the Artificer special Metamagic Spell Trigger before it is acquired in game by leveling? IMO No.

By RAW can you still move around when your PC dies? Yes but only because in the rules it doesn't say you can't. On the boards you can post all you want how your PC moves around after he dies but will that make it true with most DMs in their games after the PC is dead? IMO No.

It was a clever build if it is permitted in a game, a level 7 PC performing the equivalent of a level 17 EPIC magic effect in game without needing to make any checks. Now I know how ECS keeps getting destroyed IMO not all DMs will allow the build to noncasters or casters who are not of sufficient level to use the feats in game since it appears to capitalize on a design rule oversight which can basically only be exploited in game by a Artificer PC with wands doing things no comparable level 20 fullcaster could do even the Ultimate Magus PRC limits spell fueled meta to +4 spell. What other PCs in game can do something comparable on a similar scale? None to my knowledge and good reason to disallow it.

lMO the best games usually have a little quid pro quo with a DM who keeps the PCs on their toes guessing. If I was an Artificer or in a party with an Artificer using those tactics regularly in game I would expect my DM to incorporate those same tactics which rely on feats and burning up magic items into his game occassionally with NPCs. 4 Artificers using those tactics are a CR 11 encounter, 6 are a CR 12 encounter and 8 are a CR 13 encounter.

[Kaelik]

Did you just compare taking metamagic feats with an Artificer (something that the designers actually tell you to do with the Bonus feats) to moving around while dead?

I don't care about one obscure tactic out of the billion obscure tactics that Artificers can use. My point is that if an Artificer wants to take a metamagc feat at level 1, level 3, or level 12 I'm going to let them, because saying "non-casters can't take feats like that" is silly when they are designed with precisely that in mind.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Did you just compare taking metamagic feats with an Artificer (something that the designers actually tell you to do with the Bonus feats) to moving around while dead?

I don't care about one obscure tactic out of the billion obscure tactics that Artificers can use. My point is that if an Artificer wants to take a metamagc feat at level 1, level 3, or level 12 I'm going to let them, because saying "non-casters can't take feats like that" is silly when they are designed with precisely that in mind.

Yes, could you post a link to those posts where the designers tell us it is cool and suggested to do things like breaking the game adding +15 spell meta with a wand at level 7 as an Artificer creating an Epic spell effect?

I disagree regarding an obscure tactic of this magnitude than has no comparable equivalent in game mechanics. It's a big difference when the feats are acquired and applied in game. Artificers don't pick up the level 7 Meta Magic Spell trigger until level 7 and it's no big deal if one had picked up several +1 or +0 spell meta feats because they wouldn't have anywhere near the impact the spell meta beyond caster level does.

[Tor the Fallen]

Please back up that statement with some reasons. Generally some kind of fullcaster generally has more opportunites although the lock down fighter is pretty good.

The Artificer is an interesting class and a few level dips are nice with a single level of Factotum and Marshal along with 2 levels in Chameleon for that open bonus feat in campaigns where a PC can't buy magic items according to suggested wealth guidelines and the PCs have lots of down time to create specific magic items for the party. The game generally revolves around PC action time units not days per 1,000 GP crafting items. Other than those two types of generally non standard campaigns (Limited magic items and basically unlimited downtime time outs to make magic items (I'm not saying there isn't down time for magic item creation just that it is not a given the PCs get as much as they want before and during each adventure to take time outs to make magic items)) so what exactly makes the Artificer such a good mage killer?

IMO something like a slightly optimized human generalist spellcasting skillmonkey Ranger or Rogue - 1, Factotum - 1, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Intelligence or Wisdom), Artificer -3 (Scrolls, Brew Potion and Craft Wonderous), Chameleon -2 (Open bonus Feat you can use for a Crafting feat), Ur Priest - 10 (Rebuke Undead for DMM), Assassin -1 (Death Attack, Poison Use), Monk -1 (Option not to use armor and use that suggested wealth for something else) since it would appear to be a lot stronger in more games than a straight Artificer for being able to deal with more situations including dealing with full casters.

A Artificer -1, Marshal - 1 Motivate Intelligence), Beguiler - 18 (13 if a Gnome for Shadow Craft Mage -5) can scribe scrolls for that single level and maxing UMD with that single level dip in Artificer for any spell not on his spell list. Just taking an Arcane Disciple feat and Craft Wondrous Item in a tight magic campaign does an awful lot.

Artificers are easily the most powerful class in the game.

Wand of Enervation.
Feats empower, maximize, split ray, etc.
Burn charges instead of raising spell level.
Congrats, you just hit him for 20 negative levels.

Level 4 wands are cheap, esp. when you craft em yourself.

[Woot Spitum]

Mind Blank won't completely block Foresight. Mind Blank blocks divinations targeted at you. The Foresight you are trying to beat is cast on the wizard. What you're trying to beat is the wizard's sense that "I am about to be attacked, I should cast Prismatic Sphere, Teleport Without Error, or some other spell to protect myself. That's the real trick.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Mind Blank won't completely block Foresight. Mind Blank blocks divinations targeted at you. The Foresight you are trying to beat is cast on the wizard. What you're trying to beat is the wizard's sense that "I am about to be attacked, I should cast Prismatic Sphere, Teleport Without Error, or some other spell to protect myself. That's the real trick.

I disagree, Foresight is a divination spell, when you attack a wizard or other PC with Foresight up and active you are one of the threats it is trying to detect via divination magic, however with Mind Blank up and in effect your PC is specifically protected Foresight spells since it prevents your detection by divination spells.

[kemmotar]

Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.