3.5-Improving the fighter

[Hat-Trick]

Mine is because it would no longer feel like a guy who's just really good. It feels like a guy who says "**** physics, I'm awesome," Swordsage, Warblade or otherwise. That feel has it's place, but when I want an average fantasy fighter, it doesn't do it. Something like whirlwind attack or throwing a sword is heroic and nice, but leaping 70ft in the air to land on my opponent's head with two full attacks followed by a strike that rallies the souls of my allies is a little bit, no, way too much (I'm well aware that all those can't be done together).

[mistformsquirrl]

Agreed as well.

I really do enjoy ToB - my current character in a friend's War campaign is a gestalt Warblade/Swordsage (mm... the crazy... >.>) - but there are times when that feel just doesn't mesh.

*edit*

That, and as I said before; I like the greater diversity a fighter offers. Warblades, by nature, are much narrower in their focus. That doesn't make them bad - but they really aren't the replacement some people think they are. They're another class altogether.

[Starbuck_II]

Mine is because it would no longer feel like a guy who's just really good. It feels like a guy who says "**** physics, I'm awesome," Swordsage, Warblade or otherwise. That feel has it's place, but when I want an average fantasy fighter, it doesn't do it. Something like whirlwind attack or throwing a sword is heroic and nice, but leaping 70ft in the air to land on my opponent's head with two full attacks followed by a strike that rallies the souls of my allies is a little bit, no, way too much (I'm well aware that all those can't be done together).

Rogues say that everytime they succeed on a fireball or nuke. Evasion FTW.

Whirlwind is a maneuver.
Rallying allies is a maneuever.

But I'm not sure how that is saying beep to physics. D&D Physics is almost non-existant.
I mean Fireball creates no pressure.

[Quietus]

As has been mentioned, one of the easiest ways to improve the fighter is to improve his options - that is, the feats he has access to. Things like...

Weapon Focus [General]

Spoiler

Show

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites : Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1

Benefit : You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with the selected weapon.

Special : You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon. This feat also has additional use for characters with levels in the Fighter class, as follows :

4 levels of Fighter : +2 bonus on damage rolls with the chosen weapon (+1 attack/+2 damage)
8 levels of Fighter : Additional +1 bonus on attack rolls with the chosen weapon (+2 attack/+2 damage)
12 levels of Fighter : Additional +2 bonus on damage rolls with the chosen weapon (+2 attack/+4 damage)
16 levels of Fighter : Additional +2 bonus to both attack and damage rolls with all weapons doing the same type of damage as the chosen weapon (+4 attack/+6 damage with the chosen weapon, +2 attack/+2 damage with all weapons doing the same type of damage)

Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will : Same general idea, but give them the entry "Special : If taken by a Fighter, instead increase their base <X> save to the Good advancement". This way at level 1, they get +2 to the same, but at higher levels it continues to advance.


Two-weapon fighting : For Fighters, fold all of the two-weapon fighting/two-weapon defense feats into a single line. Other classes must take them all separately as needed.

Dodge/mobility/spring attack : Again, for Fighters, fold all three of these feats into one.

This means that a Fighter doesn't have to keep spending more and more feats to advance his basic competency; Instead, he can spread outward, picking up feats that improve his options, which is where he is sorely lacking.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Mine is because it would no longer feel like a guy who's just really good. It feels like a guy who says "**** physics, I'm awesome," Swordsage, Warblade or otherwise. That feel has it's place, but when I want an average fantasy fighter, it doesn't do it. Something like whirlwind attack or throwing a sword is heroic and nice, but leaping 70ft in the air to land on my opponent's head with two full attacks followed by a strike that rallies the souls of my allies is a little bit, no, way too much (I'm well aware that all those can't be done together).

Level 9 Barbarian(or Knight). 16 Con. Falls from SPACE. Survives, a good chunk of the time. By level 12, with 18 Con, he does so every time. **** Physics, indeed.

[Hat-Trick]

Doesn't a Warblade do the same, while attacking 10 times in a blur of six seconds? While clearing skyscrapers in a single bound? While Arrows Bounce of their Rock hard Skin? Too much thanks. Besides, I'd expect to die from that height and Common Sense will have the character die, even if the rules don't.

[Faleldir]

Mine is because it would no longer feel like a guy who's just really good. It feels like a guy who says "**** physics, I'm awesome,"

This is a different world with different laws of physics. How can Greater Manyshot be possible? You can't even use regular Manyshot in real life because the arrows would have less kinetic energy. If you want "a guy who's just really good", then Fighter 20 is more than enough and you have no right to complain.

[Hat-Trick]

The way the two classes go about it still feel different, no matter the physics. A fighter's a fighter. A warblade is a warblade. One feels like a man of war, the other feels like a wizard denying he uses magic.

[lsfreak]

Doesn't a Warblade do the same, while attacking 10 times in a blur of six seconds? While clearing skyscrapers in a single bound? While Arrows Bounce of their Rock hard Skin?

No. The only thing a warblade does that other things don't is that they can be useful when they have to move and attack on the same turn. Jumping over someone and hitting harder? Makes perfect sense. Noticing the subtle shift in the environment where invisible creatures are? That's just a bit better than ranks in Spot. Throwing all your power into a single blow rather than multiple? Yeah, that's completely unrealistic.

[Hat-Trick]

So, you deny that Warblades have Time Stand Still, Leaping Dragon Stance, and Stone Bones?

[Demons_eye]

If two warblades have the white raven tactics move they can flank one person full attack and as a swift action grant the other a turn. Rinse repeat.

[lsfreak]

So, you deny that Warblades have Time Stand Still, Leaping Dragon Stance, and Stone Bones?

A real-world fighter fights gets between 1 and 2 attacks per second (depending on weapon), according to the peoples in the Real-World Weapons and Armor Thread; there is nothing physics-defying about this. Someone trained specifically in jumping (such as a warblade with Leap Attack and focusing on jumping for leverage and the like) should be able to jump farther than someone else, as Leaping Dragon Stance provides. Stone Bones is bracing yourself for the pain of an attack or positioning your weapon in such a way that you parry the next attack so it will, for example, be a glancing blow against your leg armor rather than a thrust up through the kidneys.

[Indon]

I'm sorry, the grammar in that sentence is making it hard for me to see your point. Can you rephrase?

By your own admission, even your example players are not actually the kind of players you envision playing Wizards.

As for Tome of Battle, well, I like mechanical diversity as much as the next guy, but seriously, it's reflavored, intentionally gimped full casting. If you want to use the Warblade, you may as well just reflavor a DMM Persist Cleric, and be very restrictive in your spell selection (to spells that fit your "Fighter Flavor"), and you'll frankly probably be more powerful for it. Plus, you don't have to use a different book.

[mistformsquirrl]

I disagree there a bit Indon.

ToB has it's own unique flavor in a lot of ways - stances, the fact that maneuvers can be recovered more easily than spells (but are substantially more limited in number and variety of effects) - plus the whole 'feel' of it.

However to me there's a substantial difference between a Fighter and a Warblade - and I rather like the distinction; which is why I'd rather buff the fighter than replace them with a class that's fundamentally different in feel.

[Indon]

ToB has it's own unique flavor in a lot of ways - stances, the fact that maneuvers can be recovered more easily than spells (but are substantially more limited in number and variety of effects) - plus the whole 'feel' of it.

Both of those are power reductions from full casting. Stances are buffs that you can't stack, and maneuver recovery may look powerful, but it's the high potency with limited usage of spells that make them so powerful in the game in the first place.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

By your own admission, even your example players are not actually the kind of players you envision playing Wizards.

That is the complete opposite of what I meant to say.

[Hat-Trick]

A real-world fighter fights gets between 1 and 2 attacks per second (depending on weapon), according to the peoples in the Real-World Weapons and Armor Thread; there is nothing physics-defying about this. Someone trained specifically in jumping (such as a warblade with Leap Attack and focusing on jumping for leverage and the like) should be able to jump farther than someone else, as Leaping Dragon Stance provides. Stone Bones is bracing yourself for the pain of an attack or positioning your weapon in such a way that you parry the next attack so it will, for example, be a glancing blow against your leg armor rather than a thrust up through the kidneys.

Not denying any of that, but look again. One or two attack per second. The average round consists of numerous blows traded. An attack is only the chance of one hitting. Time Stand Still is pretty much the anime "blade quicker than eye" by that account. I've done swordsmanship before, four or five attacks hitting are valid, if a little questionable due to the opponent's ability to defend. Ten? In six seconds? Someone trained specifically for jumping can jump how far? Tell me? Now tell me how far they can jump while in combat? Now tell me how far a Warblade does? AC simulates parries and glancing off armor. Stone Bones is taking no to little damage from an attack that gets through your armor and skill just because you feel stable.

EDIT: Indon, he was saying that the players he knows who are terrible Wizards use those spells and are powerful.

[mistformsquirrl]

I didn't say anything about power did I? >.>

I was referring to the fact that they operate in a very different fashion from spells - for one being able to recover them instantly, which is something a genuine spellcaster simply can't do. Does it mean that a ToB char is more powerful than a caster? No; but that's not the point.

I don't care that much about power; and never have. I *do* think Fighter is at a place where it really does need a boost; because I see very few people willing to play it. To me that's a sign of a problem - your class is so weak it isn't even fun for a lot of folks. (I still play them; but I'm strange like that.)

For me, what's important about Warblade (and ToB in general) is it's feel - not it's mechanics, and this is precisely why I don't think they should replace fighter; because Fighter likewise has it's own feel. That flavor isn't appreciated nearly as much, I think largely because a lot of the feat options are garbage - but the actual feel of the class exists and is most definitely distinct from Warblade.

At least that's how I see it.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Not denying any of that, but look again. One or two attack per second. The average round consists of numerous blows traded. An attack is only the chance of one hitting. Time Stand Still is pretty much the anime "blade quicker than eye" by that account. I've done swordsmanship before, four or five attacks hitting are valid, if a little questionable due to the opponent's ability to defend. Ten? In six seconds?

A TWFing rogue or a monk with flurry can get off, what, 7, 8 attacks per round?

So anime.

EDIT: Indon, he was saying that the players he knows who are terrible Wizards use those spells and are powerful.

Not terrible... just not that great either.

[lsfreak]

Not denying any of that, but look again. One or two attack per second. The average round consists of numerous blows traded. An attack is only the chance of one hitting. Time Stand Still is pretty much the anime "blade quicker than eye" by that account. I've done swordsmanship before, four or five attacks hitting are valid, if a little questionable due to the opponent's ability to defend. Ten? In six seconds? Someone trained specifically for jumping can jump how far? Tell me? Now tell me how far they can jump while in combat? Now tell me how far a Warblade does? AC simulates parries and glancing off armor. Stone Bones is taking no to little damage from an attack that gets through your armor and skill just because you feel stable.

EDIT: Indon, he was saying that the players he knows who are terrible Wizards use those spells and are powerful.

I'll admit I'm out of my realm with the attacks in a certain amount of time. However, I'd propose a fighter with Lightning Maces - at 20th level theyr'e getting at least 8 attacks in six seconds and, without much effort, can bump that up to 10+, without any magic.

As for jumping, a 10th-level barbarian with no feats, no magic, nothing but skill ranks already beats the Olympic world record on a roll of 1. With a feat, he beats it from standing position, and with a couple feats he can beat it while prone. Yes, the warblade breaks that a little farther, so what? EDIT: Actually, the warblade stance simply replicates Leap of the Heavens pretty much, a feat that anyone can pick up.

Damage reduction is simply reducing the damage. A glancing blow can still do damage if the blow was hard enough; a hit against your leg in my example could still hurt a lot. Hit point can be actual damage, but it can also be how weary someone has gotten, the pain they've suffered from bruises or glancing blows, etc. Therefore, the damage reduction can be from bracing yourself against he pain, redirecting the attack to a less important body part, etc.

[Hat-Trick]

I think the problem is that they have to activate such effects, instead of having them inherent. By activating them, it seems more spell-like and "Secret Technique: Raining Steel!!!!1!!" If it was just part of their average stuff and could pretty much just use it whenever like a fighter uses a feat, it'd feel more natural and "What that? Just practice a bit."

[lsfreak]

I think the problem is that they have to activate such effects, instead of having them inherent. By activating them, it seems more spell-like and "Secret Technique: Raining Steel!!!!1!!" If it was just part of their average stuff and could pretty much just use it whenever like a fighter uses a feat, it'd feel more natural and "What that? Just practice a bit."

In that case, it comes down to game balance. Why can KYTHRON, LORD OF THE UNDERWORLD AND SLAVER OF THE UNIVERSE only case acid splash 6 times a day?
EDIT: I guess part of my point is just, people are less willing to except ToB because it's ToB, when they accept similar things all over the place simply because it's been in the game for longer. Also, people are unwilling to divorce flavor from mechanics in an attempt to keep ToB as separate from the the parts of D&D they enjoy.

[Quietus]

I'll admit I'm out of my realm with the attacks in a certain amount of time. However, I'd propose a fighter with Lightning Maces - at 20th level theyr'e getting at least 8 attacks in six seconds and, without much effort, can bump that up to 10+, without any magic.

As for jumping, a 10th-level barbarian with no feats, no magic, nothing but skill ranks already beats the Olympic world record on a roll of 1. With a feat, he beats it from standing position, and with a couple feats he can beat it while prone. Yes, the warblade breaks that a little farther, so what? EDIT: Actually, the warblade stance simply replicates Leap of the Heavens pretty much, a feat that anyone can pick up.

Considering that fifth-level characters are, essentially, beyond olympian on the scale of D&D abilities versus real world abilities.. yes, it's not surprising that 20th, or even 10th, level characters are capable of shattering anything the "real world" can compare to.

[Hat-Trick]

I think the problem is that a Warblade is a Warblade. The Fighter is a Fighter. Using another class to replace it feels like a cop out to me. I'd rather see it modified than replaced, and most of the fixes that aren't ToB mentioned here keep the feel of the class and can still be called Fighter due to that.

[DragoonWraith]

Reinvenstion of the wheel. Not perfect, but from what I've looked through of it and its discussion seems like it would be around the same level as ToB stuff.

That is awesome. Thanks for that link.

[Zeful]

Warblades use magic. Always people are saying they do not, but making their weapon burst into flames is magic. And for some games, you want a lot of pcs and npcs, who are just plain people who can handle their weapons really well.

Then use the low-level characters. Where their mundane level of skill makes sense. A 20th level fighter can routinely make physics cry with skill checks, not to mention the other classes (like the bard, who can learn every language by hanging out in bars, or at level 9, attract the attention of otherworldly patrons because he's really good playing his lute/[insert instrument here]). As such they shouldn't be relying on mundane tactics anymore. They still might swing a sword, but now it should be cleaving through walls of force, batting spells cast at him toward other enemies, and almost a dozen other things, simply because he the supreme swordsman.

[Indon]

Not terrible... just not that great either.

Because they pick a their spells without fully understanding their power.

You need to understand that a wizard at the level of optimization which you consider 'not very optimized' - picking an array of extremely potent spells - represents at mid-to-late levels a character who can essentially shut down a campaign by casting one spell per encounter.

People don't play that, except in specifically extremely high power-level games (in which, frankly, non-full casters probably wouldn't cut it). The ones who don't understand how to play that kind of character obviously can't (except by accident), and the ones who do understand how to play that kind of character know that it invites an eventual breakdown of the game.

The objective of empowering a weaker class isn't to make it capable of beating celerity-foresight combos and rod-maximized Time Stops or anything like that. It's to give the class comparable potency in encounters to a well-played, but not game-breaking caster.

If you seriously want a game where the kind of optimized wizard you describe can compete with a melee class - any melee class - you're playing the wrong edition of D&D.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Because they pick a their spells without fully understanding their power.

You need to understand that a wizard at the level of optimization which you consider 'not very optimized' - picking an array of extremely potent spells - represents at mid-to-late levels a character who can essentially shut down a campaign by casting one spell per encounter.

Three spells is an array now?

[Gaiyamato]

I still say the solution is to tone down everything else until the fighter works better as it is. ;)


EDIT:
lsfreak, that fighter fix is not bad.

[Indon]

Three spells is an array now?

No, but I know how this works. Whenever I would cite a feat that the Fighter would likely get if he got a whole bucket of feats available to take, this supposedly unoptimized wizard would gain another spell custom-fit for the situation.

So I'm cutting to the chase.