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Thread: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
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2009-12-05, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Yet another TOB question
Dancing and Raging Mongoose are boosts that allow you to make extra attacks with each weapon you wield. Neither requires the use of a full attack action. Is it reasonable to allow this with a standard attack or even standard action strikes? (I mean, it's the companion to the Lv 1 Wolf Fang Strike). It seems to be RAW, so do you also think it's RAI and RAMS?
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2009-12-05, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-05, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
You could even use them on a charge action, to get extra attacks at the end of your charge. These attacks would have all the benefits of charging, including if you were using feats like Leap Attack and Spirited Charge.
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2009-12-05, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
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2009-12-05, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-05, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
RAW is If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. Neither Dancing Mongoose nor Raging Mongoose say anything to override this, so unlike Snap Kick it does still apply. You must make a full attack to benefit from either of these maneuvers.
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2009-12-05, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
That requires the assumption that initiating a boost falls under the "some special reason" cause, and isn't expemt from the ruling by being a class feature for a class written after these rules. Besides, with this logic, standard action strikes that allow more than one attack do not function. It would be better if they spelt it out, but allowing the extra attacks whenever and however you attack makes the most sense.
Last edited by Boci; 2009-12-05 at 10:53 AM.
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2009-12-05, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2009-12-05, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-05, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2009-12-05, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-05, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2009-12-05, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-12-05, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
That is an inference based on a trend, which is far from enough to override actual written rules. Maneuvers like Steel Wind override the general rule because they specifically say both "standard action" and "multiple attacks". Snap Kick also does this. The Mongoose maneuvers do not, therefore the general rule applies.
Also, these two boosts can be used in conjunction with three particular strikes: Flashing Sun, Pouncing Charge, and Time Stands Still.Last edited by Douglas; 2009-12-05 at 12:09 PM.
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2009-12-05, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
The written rules were made as a blanket term for all books, for two abilities from 1 book I'd expect more clarity. I will acknowledge that snap kick does imply that they cannot be used. RAW aside however, do you think it would be over powered to allow it to function with strikes?
The latter two I get, because are are full attacks + something extra but flashing sun is just an extra attack, not a full attack, so why would you allow that?
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2009-12-05, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
For two abilities from 1 book, I'd expect all the clarity necessary is simply not mentioning that they are an exception to the rule. This seems perfectly clear to me - the rules say that specific overrides general, but only if it specifically says so; there is a general rule that is relevant, and the specific case does not address it; therefore the general rule applies. This kind of logic is quite common in D&D rules. If the writers took the effort to write out every time that no, this is not an exception to the general rule, every splatbook would balloon in size to no benefit just because they'd have to write that multiple hundreds of times in each of them.
For house rules: With each extra attack getting the special effect of the strike? Extremely overpowered. With each extra attack just being a normal attack? Not RAW but not especially broken.
Read it again. Flashing Sun most definitely is a full attack. In particular, read the second sentence: "As part of this maneuver, you take a full attack action and make your normal melee attacks."
Pouncing Charge is full attack in a charge. Time Stands Still is full attack twice. Flashing Sun is full attack with a melee version of Rapid Shot.Last edited by Douglas; 2009-12-05 at 12:59 PM.
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2009-12-05, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
If they really wanted to be clear all they had to do was write, "when making a full attack". The text says you gain additional attacks, and falling back on a blanket rule of RAW that requires you to assume a class feature is a special ability sounds more to me like the writers simply forgott about the no more than one atatcks rule. RAW I can accept your interpretation, I do not feel it was a sintended.
We can agree on this.
Fair enough, I keep forgetting to check the exact wording.
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2009-12-05, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
If you're saying that Dancing Mongoose does nothing at all unless you take a full attack action, I don't think that makes any sense at all. By that logic, Sudden Leap is completely worthless. It takes a swift action to initiate, and says that you can make a Jump check and move that distance. The rules say that moving from one spot to another is a move action, and Sudden Leap overrides that by letting you Jump as a swift action. The rules say that you must take a full attack action to get more than one attack in a turn, and Dancing Mongoose lets you override that by letting you take extra attacks as a swift action.
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2009-12-05, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
Sorry, that analogy doesn't work.
Sudden Leap: cost is specifically a swift action, grants movement. The general rule involved is for the cost, which is specifically overridden.
Dancing/Raging Mongoose: cost swift action, gain additional attacks this round. The general rule is for requirements to use additional attacks, not for the cost of how they are obtained, and it is not overridden.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
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2009-12-06, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Yet another TOB question
So does that mean Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose can't be used with Wolf Fang Strike? It seems that those two are the logical upgrade to WFS, because Tiger Claw doesn't really have much else in the way of TWF support despite its flavor.
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