Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[Rogar Demonblud]

It would make more sense if Diplomacy was labeled Interaction instead. That's what it's used for.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Appraise is useful to getting to all those prices, but convincing someone to accept them needs Diplomacy.

This is entirely my opinion on "what makes sense" and "how it should work" and not "how any has ever done it": You don't need diplomacy to get someone in the business of doing X for money to do X for money. Maybe you need it to buy from the goblin merchant, but then the goblin merchant wasn't really in the business of selling to humans.

Diplomacy gets you to understand each other but no further. If there's any reason for you two to get along better, diplomacy can make that happen (maybe fantastically easily with enough ranks), but it can't rewrite a target's goals and loyalties.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The rules say otherwise. Someone with a good enough roll in Diplomacy can essentially brainwash the subject.

[Quartz]

What if Xykon has the arcane preparation feat, and that's how he uses metamagic'd spells without spending a full round casting them?

That would mean he needs 12th level spells slots. Which would mean that Xykon was 26th level minimum as four Epic feats would be required - Epic Spellcasting and 3x Improved Spell Capacity. Xykon gain Epic feats at levels 21, 23, 24 and 26.

[Ephemera]

That would mean he needs 12th level spells slots. Which would mean that Xykon was 26th level minimum as four Epic feats would be required - Epic Spellcasting and 3x Improved Spell Capacity. Xykon gain Epic feats at levels 21, 23, 24 and 26.

Probably even worse, because you’re still going to have to explain away his ring of something resistance without requiring more epic feats, right?

[Aquillion]

Isn't it simpler to just assume he has Sudden X? Or has he used metamagics for which a sudden feat is unavailable or something?

[Jasdoif]

Isn't it simpler to just assume he has Sudden X?

Those don't negate the increased casting time for applying metamagic to a spontaneously cast spell.

[Ephemera]

Isn't it simpler to just assume he has Sudden X? Or has he used metamagics for which a sudden feat is unavailable or something?

When it comes to Xykon, there isn’t really a “simpler,” just choice between him being really high level and relatively convoluted explanations that either involve deep dives into splatbooks or invisible magic items.

Honestly I think if we were really strict about our rules, we’d just conclude that he has demonstrated that he’s level 32 or whatever...but I think this just does that they aren’t really as much rules as we like to pretend and are more just guidelines.

[Peelee]

When it comes to Xykon, there isn’t really a “simpler,” just choice between him being really high level and relatively convoluted explanations that either involve deep dives into splatbooks or invisible magic items..

Depends on how you define "convoluted" and "deep." For example, my preferred heacanon - that Xykon has the Sorcerer Alternate Class Feature Metamagic Specialist - is pretty simple and is in the PHB II, IIRC.

[Quartz]

Depends on how you define "convoluted" and "deep." For example, my preferred heacanon - that Xykon has the Sorcerer Alternate Class Feature Metamagic Specialist - is pretty simple and is in the PHB II, IIRC.

That ACF only solves the casting time issue; we still need to acount for the level increase.

[Quartz]

I'm thinking about the confidence with which Durkon used Greater Dispel Magic to Dispel Xykon's twinned Greater Invisibility in #429. We looked into this earlier this thread and it seemed that Durkon would only succeed if he rolled very high and only then if Xykon were only level 21 or 22. That seems a little low for Xykon (but that's a thread for another time). Durkon looked as if he was Taking 10.

So, how can Durkon boost his Dispel Check? The Divine Spell Power feat will give him up to +4 but needs a round's preparation that we did not see and the Inquisition domain will give him +4 but he hasn't shown any indication of having that domain and I don't think it's one that Thor grants anyway.

So I light on Empower Spell, or rather in Durkon's case, Sudden Empower. +50% to the variable part. But it doesn't apply to opposed rolls. But is a Dispel Check an opposed roll? Xykon isn't rolling anything. And can it be applied twice for +100%?

[Aquillion]

That ACF only solves the casting time issue; we still need to acount for the level increase.

Does the ACF work with sudden metamagic feats?

[Riftwolf]

I'm thinking about the confidence with which Durkon used Greater Dispel Magic to Dispel Xykon's twinned Greater Invisibility in #429. We looked into this earlier this thread and it seemed that Durkon would only succeed if he rolled very high and only then if Xykon were only level 21 or 22. That seems a little low for Xykon (but that's a thread for another time). Durkon looked as if he was Taking 10.

So, how can Durkon boost his Dispel Check? The Divine Spell Power feat will give him up to +4 but needs a round's preparation that we did not see and the Inquisition domain will give him +4 but he hasn't shown any indication of having that domain and I don't think it's one that Thor grants anyway.

So I light on Empower Spell, or rather in Durkon's case, Sudden Empower. +50% to the variable part. But it doesn't apply to opposed rolls. But is a Dispel Check an opposed roll? Xykon isn't rolling anything. And can it be applied twice for +100%?

A simpler answer would be Xykon used a scroll.

[Jasdoif]

Does the ACF work with sudden metamagic feats?

Yes. The sudden metamagic feats have the "metamagic" keyword, so they're clearly metamagic feats; the ACF would work with them.

That said, I'm not convinced it's necessary to combine them on the same spell; as there's two different things going on....The (normally-12th) maximized energy drain doesn't have the time restriction that the (normally-10th) still meteor swarm does (namely, that you can't cast a spell that takes longer than a standard action while being grappled).

[D.One]

A simpler answer would be Xykon used a scroll.

Not so simple when we consider that there's no scroll to be seen, because we start to delve into IMIH (Invisible Magical Iten Hypothesis) area, which opens up a wormhole of possibilities.

[Quartz]

Not so simple when we consider that there's no scroll to be seen

And if it was an Epic spell you can't write that onto a scroll. And which spell did he actually cast in #429? There's none in the SRD that fit, and using Twin Spell on Greater Invisibility doesn't allow two targets (Xykon and the zombie dragon). Invisibility Sphere and Mass Invisibility don't allow attackers to stay invisible after an attack and Invisibility Sphere may give too small a volume to fully contain the dragon to boot. It was one spell as evidenced by Durkon's Greater Dispel Magic revealing both Xykon and the dragon. An Epic spell with a DC of 0 can be created on the fly.

Hmm... can you use easierr to dispel as a mitigating factor in Epic spells?

[D.One]

And if it was an Epic spell you can't write that onto a scroll. And which spell did he actually cast in #429? There's none in the SRD that fit, and using Twin Spell on Greater Invisibility doesn't allow two targets (Xykon and the zombie dragon). Invisibility Sphere and Mass Invisibility don't allow attackers to stay invisible after an attack and Invisibility Sphere may give too small a volume to fully contain the dragon to boot. It was one spell as evidenced by Durkon's Greater Dispel Magic revealing both Xykon and the dragon. An Epic spell with a DC of 0 can be created on the fly.

Hmm... can you use easierr to dispel as a mitigating factor in Epic spells?

Xykon might have simply cast Greater Invisibility twice (he surely has lots of slots for that), and Durkon used an Area Dispel. That's the simplest explanation, IMHO. No need for Epic, really.

Edit: As I've said before, he probably has Greater Invisibility, since O-Chul's list has a 4th level spell with a name starting with "Grea..." and Greater Invisibility is the only Sorcerer 4th level spell from the PHB with such a name.

[Quartz]

Xykon might have simply cast Greater Invisibility twice (he surely has lots of slots for that), and Durkon used an Area Dispel.

But an area Dispel stops after dispelling one spell, doesn't it? So it would dispel the Greater Invisibility on the dragon or Xykon but not both.

[Ephemera]

Not so simple when we consider that there's no scroll to be seen, because we start to delve into IMIH (Invisible Magical Iten Hypothesis) area, which opens up a wormhole of possibilities.

This is a non-factor though, because it’s cast off-panel. We see Xykon in the Teevo scene (416) and then not again until the big reveal in 428, which is kind of the whole point of the sequence, so we never see him cast the spell at all, scroll or otherwise. Hence, I don’t think this rises to the level of the invisible metamagic rod as far as whether it’s a stretch to say maybe he cast it from a scroll.

Personally I think that other evidence about Xykon’s and Durkon’s relative levels at the time justify looking for alternate explanations for how the scene works. As ever in such cases we aren’t likely to agree in exactly which explanation is most likely.

[D.One]

But an area Dispel stops after dispelling one spell, doesn't it? So it would dispel the Greater Invisibility on the dragon or Xykon but not both.

One spell per target in the area. One in the dragon, one in Xykon.

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

This is a non-factor though, because it’s cast off-panel. We see Xykon in the Teevo scene (416) and then not again until the big reveal in 428, which is kind of the whole point of the sequence, so we never see him cast the spell at all, scroll or otherwise. Hence, I don’t think this rises to the level of the invisible metamagic rod as far as whether it’s a stretch to say maybe he cast it from a scroll.

Personally I think that other evidence about Xykon’s and Durkon’s relative levels at the time justify looking for alternate explanations for how the scene works. As ever in such cases we aren’t likely to agree in exactly which explanation is most likely.

Fair enough, but I think we are using this scene (or at least we should be) to try to get at Durkon's or Xykon's caster level, not to discover how Xykon and the dragon got greatly invisible, since we already know that (or, at least, have strong evidence that) Xykon has Greater Invisibility.

[Quartz]

One spell per target in the area. One in the dragon, one in Xykon.

I stand corrected. I thought Greater Dispel Magic finished once it had dispelled one spell on one of the targets in the area.

[danielxcutter]

It certainly is plausible for Xykon to have and use scrolls, being a Sorcerer. In addition, the 4th-level "Greater - " spell may not be Greater Invisibility; Xykon's used Ghostform since way before the scene in question and that means the Giant has been using Complete Arcane, Libris Mortis, and/or Spell Compendium for his spells known.

[Ephemera]

Fair enough, but I think we are using this scene (or at least we should be) to try to get at Durkon's or Xykon's caster level, not to discover how Xykon and the dragon got greatly invisible, since we already know that (or, at least, have strong evidence that) Xykon has Greater Invisibility.

I don’t disagree with trying to do so...and I’d even agree that it’s likely he has greater invisibility. But that’s not necessarily evidence that he cast it.

All else being equal I’d go for some kind of Occam’s razor argument that that’s how he got invisible, but in this case if we do assume that, then we are going to have to conclude that D and X are way closer in level than we otherwise think, and either raising D’s level or lowering X’s will lead to a whole chain of unpalatable assumptions. If you want to try to reconcile them all, then by all means have at it, but I think it’s going to lead you right back to invisible magic items, or else throw off everyone’s level on the holy word scene.

As I said, if we’d actually seen Xykon cast the spell that would be a totally different matter but as it is I feel like it makes more sense so far to assume Xykon used a scroll than it does that he has some kind of variant easier to dispell one-off epic spell or that Durkon has some really convoluted way of raising his caster level (a lot) on his dispel...

I’d be happy to be shown an option I’m not considering though...

[Peelee]

I stand corrected. I thought Greater Dispel Magic finished once it had dispelled one spell on one of the targets in the area.

You're thinking of Kinda OK Dispel Magic.

[Geodude6]

As I showed a couple pages ago, if we don’t assume Xykon used a scroll to cast GI, and we do assume Durkon rolled a natural 20 for GDM’s check and that he is level 12, Xykon has to be level 21 exactly in #429. If we assume Durkon is level 13 in that strip, which I don’t feel is unreasonable (though there’s room to argue he’s not), Xykon could possibly be level 22.

It’s improbable that Durkon rolled a nat 20, sure. But it’s possible and I feel it’s a reasonable assumption to make that doesn’t involve unseen magic items.

[Kelenius]

If Xykon's casting Greater Invisibility by himself, how is he managing to keep it up for so long? Redcloak says that he's "ten minutes in" - even if he's exaggerating a little, there's no way Xykon would have enough spell slots for that, especially if he needs to cover both himself and the dragon, and is planning to fight the paladins and animate them later.

[MultitudeMan]

If Xykon's casting Greater Invisibility by himself, how is he managing to keep it up for so long? Redcloak says that he's "ten minutes in" - even if he's exaggerating a little, there's no way Xykon would have enough spell slots for that, especially if he needs to cover both himself and the dragon, and is planning to fight the paladins and animate them later.

Xykon has Invisibility as well as Greater Invisibility on his spell list, so maybe he started off just casting Invisibility, then cast Greater Invisibility when he got nearer to the castle, and was more likely to need to attack or cast? I don't think the action of casting Greater Invisibility would make him (or the dragon) even temporarily visible, would it?

[Aquillion]

Xykon has Invisibility as well as Greater Invisibility on his spell list, so maybe he started off just casting Invisibility, then cast Greater Invisibility when he got nearer to the castle, and was more likely to need to attack or cast? I don't think the action of casting Greater Invisibility would make him (or the dragon) even temporarily visible, would it?

Another possibility is that he was previously hiding elsewhere, and only just cast Invisibility and rushed in. I don't think it would take him ten minutes to get from the base camp to the wall, not while riding a fast flying dragon. He could have spent ~8 minutes waiting so the heroes would focus on the decoys, first.

[D.One]

We really don't have complete information to define if Xykon cast Greater Invisibility himself, from a scroll, from a wand, or another unseen magcal iten, or if some other caster cast it on him. That said, again, the main help that knowing that could give us was to help determine the caster level of the spell and, from that, have a possible level range for Durkon (and Xykon, if he cast the spell himself).

If Xykon's casting Greater Invisibility by himself, how is he managing to keep it up for so long? Redcloak says that he's "ten minutes in" - even if he's exaggerating a little, there's no way Xykon would have enough spell slots for that, especially if he needs to cover both himself and the dragon, and is planning to fight the paladins and animate them later.

Another possibility is that he was previously hiding elsewhere, and only just cast Invisibility and rushed in. I don't think it would take him ten minutes to get from the base camp to the wall, not while riding a fast flying dragon. He could have spent ~8 minutes waiting so the heroes would focus on the decoys, first.

I take the "ten minutes in" as more an expression and hyperbole than the exact amount of time, let's see why:

IF Xykon cast Greater Invisibility and if he was 22th level, it would last 22 rounds (or 2 minutes and 12 seconds), or could last 44 rounds (4 minutes and 24 seconds) if he had and used Extend Spell.

This sceneshows that the hobgoblin general didn't expect regular boulders to reach the wall, meaning that the walls were beyond the range for a catapult. DMG says that the range increment for a heavy catapult is 200 ft, and SRD says that a projectile weapon has a maximum range of 10 times its Range increment, for a total of 2000 ft.

The titanium elementals, however, being 40% lighter, did reach the wall. Redcloak fully expected that, and being the science/math geek he's shown to be, he probably had the calculations figured out before launching them. The actual math for that is kinda complicated, and involves factors like the shooting angle and air resistance, and I'm not really in the mood for that amount of calculations (mostly because it won't really give us conclusions, only speculations, I'm usually all in for math geekery if it gives us conclusive results ).

We can, however do a simplification here in the following terms: if we assume the catapult imparts the same momentum to anything it fires, and since momentum is given by

Momentum = Mass x Speed

A decrease by 40% in mass means that, for the same momentum, the speed was increased by 66,67%.

Since the shot of projectile weapon is resolved in one round, regardless of range, the increase of speed can be assumed as the increase in range, which means Azure City Walls were somewhere beetween 2,000 feet and 3,333.33 feet from the hobgoblin army.

I don't remember if we have pinpointed tha age for the silver dragon Xykon zombified, but it must be at least Large in size, which means it has at least 150 ft. of Flying Move. Zombification reduces its flying mobility, but not its flying move. As a zombie, it can't double move, so it flies 150 ft per round, which means it covers the distance beetween the army and the walls in something beetween 14 rounds and 23 rounds.

That means it's possible for Xykon to have cast Greater Invisibility and the spell to have lasted enough to reach the wall, specially if he used Extend Spell.

In fact, we've seen no caster in the army (besides Xykon and Redcloak) able to cast with such long duration, and most magic itens don't cast with such high caster level (and if they did, we would be back to square one, because the main reason to consider a magic iten is to have a caster level lower than Xykon's).

[Quartz]

That's great analysis.