Zhentarim Fighter

[catsora]

I've heard about the zhentarim fighter a few times before and wanted to know what exactly it does and what book it comes from.

[Daftendirekt]

Champions of Valor substitution level. Fighter gets Skill Focus (Intimidation) at 3rd level, and some other stuff at levels 5 and 9, but who stays in Fighter that long?

[Arcanist]

Champions of Valor substitution level. Fighter gets Skill Focus (Intimidation) at 3rd level, and some other stuff at levels 5 and 9, but who stays in Fighter that long?

Short Answer: Nobody

Long Answer: Nobody, because it is BAD (Bunch o' Attribute Dependant) class. Not to say that you can't build a bad Fighter, but it is just so hard to keep up with your party at such a level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's actually from a free web supplement to CoV available online as a pdf download here. So you don't even need the book.

Note you could combine Zhentarim Fighter w/ Dungeoncrasher and the Drow of the Underdark 1st level alternate as well, iirc. And add in the C.Champion options (most are bad, though). So making a *decent* Fighter 9 or 10 build is possible with enough splats. Still not reason to go past 10, IMO. Weapon Supremacy is nice, but you can reach Fighter 18 equiv. through Warblade levels and just jump back to Fighter at 20th level for it, I think.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Here are the benefits, if you want. Note that there is NO trade-off for them, they are just free bonuses that cost nothing. All it requires is being a member of the Zhentarim.

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Bonus Feat: A Zhentarim Soldier gains Skill
Focus (Intimidation) as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Extended Intimidation (Ex): A target successfully
intimidated by a 5th-level Zhentarim Soldier suffers
lasting effects. Instead of ending when the
Zhentarim Soldier leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate
skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
his departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward
the Zhentarim Soldier shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering
fear remains. Whenever the Zhentarim Soldier
returns to someone he has previously intimidated, he
gains a +4 bonus on his Intimidate check to re-establish
the effect.

Swift Demoralization (Ex): A 9th-level Zhentarim
Soldier can use the demoralize opponent aspect
of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a
standard action.

[Diovid]

Sneak Attack Fighter using the Zhentarim substitution levels, with the Dead Levels enhancement and using either the Thug or Hit-and-Run Fighter variant (Drow of the Underdark) is a class with actual class features, full bab and access to all kinds of rogue-ish prcs.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Short Answer: Nobody

Long Answer: Nobody, because it is BAD (Bunch o' Attribute Dependant) class. Not to say that you can't build a bad Fighter, but it is just so hard to keep up with your party at such a level.

I'd take Zhentarim Fighter to nine levels. I'd take Zhentarim Fighter to nine levels hard.

Repeat after me: Sneak Attack Thug Zhentarim Fighter with Imperious Command.

Now try saying it five times fast.

[Twilightwyrm]

Sneak Attack Fighter using the Zhentarim substitution levels, with the Dead Levels enhancement and using either the Thug or Hit-and-Run Fighter variant (Drow of the Underdark) is a class with actual class features, full bab and access to all kinds of rogue-ish prcs.

Interesting...I see what you did there. I was initially going to say it would be impossible, as you are employing two ACF that substitute the same thing, but because one is a set of ACFs and one is Substitution levels, I suppose they actually can stack. Someone correct me if I'm wrong however.

[Gwendol]

I'd take Zhentarim Fighter to nine levels. I'd take Zhentarim Fighter to nine levels hard.

Repeat after me: Sneak Attack Thug Zhentarim Fighter with Imperious Command.

Now try saying it five times fast.

I'd suggest adding Dreadful Wrath to that build for even more "free" demoralization.

[Vaz]

If you're going for Weapon Supremacy, might as well just take Martial Monk instead. Bonus Fighter Feat, ignorant of Prerequisites? Yes please.

Only issue is, it's Dragon Magazine.

If you really want an Intimidating Fighter;

Ninja 2/Monk 2/Zhentarim Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 9/Avenging Executioner 4/Sneak Attack/Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike or Skirmish advancing class +3
Feats; Enduring Ki, Expanded Ki Pool

Monk takes Invisible Fist ACF, Ninja and Monk works together to get always on Invisibility for a number of rounds per day equal to (1.5*(4+Wis)+1). After then it's *just* every 3rd round Invisibility. Sudden Strike on that round, for all the goodies of Avenging Executioner.

For defences, you also have while Unarmoured +Wis to AC. I'm sure you can purchase some items of Mage Armour or Stoneskin or whatever. Or if LA buy-off is allowed, just go for Mineral Warrior.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why does everyone love SA Fighter and Thug so much? They both suck. SA +1d6 is not worth a bonus feat (and you're actually giving up an extra 0.5 feats for it since feat progression is 1/2/4/6/8.... and SA is 1/3/5/7...) and Fighter lacks the tools (skills, namely) to really use that SA to its fullest. Thug is just a really bad trade and does not do nearly enough to close the skills gap.

Drow Fighter is much better. Give up less than Thug does and get Dex to damage on flatfooted foes and +2 initiative.

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Cripes, I LEAP at any chance to take the "Martial Rogue" variant to get feats instead of SA whenever it's an option... If I want SA so bad, I'll just dip Swordsage later for Assassin's Stance anyway. That's enough to qualify for Craven and Staggering Strike, and that's all that really matters.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Why does everyone love SA Fighter and Thug so much? They both suck. SA +1d6 is not worth a bonus feat (and you're actually giving up an extra 0.5 feats for it since feat progression is 1/2/4/6/8.... and SA is 1/3/5/7...) and Fighter lacks the tools (skills, namely) to really use that SA to its fullest. Thug is just a really bad trade and does not do nearly enough to close the skills gap.

Drow Fighter is much better. Give up less than Thug does and get Dex to damage on flatfooted foes and +2 initiative.

Spoiler

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Cripes, I LEAP at any chance to take the "Martial Rogue" variant to get feats instead of SA whenever it's an option... If I want SA so bad, I'll just dip Swordsage later for Assassin's Stance anyway. That's enough to qualify for Craven and Staggering Strike, and that's all that really matters.

Zhentarim Fighter gives you away to trigger a full round's worth of Sneak Attack as a swift action. Now, you do Sneak Attacks better than the Rogue ever could.

It doesn't matter that chargers can do thousands of damage while Sneak Attack Fighters can only do several hundred; at the point where both builds get off, they do enough damage to kill or at least set up the kill on whatever CR-appropriate creature you're attacking either way, but the Sneak Attack/Thug Fighter can make better use of Zhentarim Fighter, and Zhentarim Fighter can apply a useful debuff (see: things the Fighter can do that aren't damage).

[Vaz]

SA fighter is there for the additional SA progression, and SA/SS stacking with Avenging Executioner. If you want to use fighter to gain the extra fighter feats, or usage there of, by all means, do so. Another 5d6 damage on a SA isn't much, but it is fun.

Thug- Mithril Chain is adequate armour for most purposes as a generic fighter, You can never complain about extra skill points, reducing MAD for a straight fighter. Trade for bonus feats- if you were dipping fighter for bonus fests, you wouldn't take thug. But to have a chance of qualifying for PrC, you need a few skillpoints under your belt. 2+Int does sweet FA.

Edit if you want SA for PrC entry, many require SA class ability. Assassin Stance is not a Class Ability.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Zhentarim Fighter gives you away to trigger a full round's worth of Sneak Attack as a swift action. Now, you do Sneak Attacks better than the Rogue ever could.

It doesn't matter that chargers can do thousands of damage while Sneak Attack Fighters can only do several hundred; at the point where both builds get off, they do enough damage to kill or at least set up the kill on whatever CR-appropriate creature you're attacking either way, but the Sneak Attack/Thug Fighter can make better use of Zhentarim Fighter, and Zhentarim Fighter can apply a useful debuff (see: things the Fighter can do that aren't damage).

Fair enough, Zhent gives you a reliable means of sneak attack...after waiting around 8 levels with sneak attack and not much to work it with.

I don't understand why you're talking up "things the Fighter can do that aren't damage" in support of the sneak attack variant, when trading feats for SA is literally trading options other than doing damage for more damage.
And what is Thug adding to the Zhent/SA combo, other than not actually stacking with it due to replacing the same class feature?

Thug- Mithril Chain is adequate armour for most purposes as a generic fighter, You can never complain about extra skill points, reducing MAD for a straight fighter. Trade for bonus feats- if you were dipping fighter for bonus fests, you wouldn't take thug. But to have a chance of qualifying for PrC, you need a few skillpoints under your belt. 2+Int does sweet FA.

Edit if you want SA for PrC entry, many require SA class ability. Assassin Stance is not a Class Ability.

4 + Int skill points on a class with no real use for Int still does sweet FA. If you're playing a fighter, you're not going to be a skill monkey. Just accept it and focus on the handful of important skills useful to you.

Thug is horrible because you lose one of your front loaded bonus feats for a whopping 4 new class skills -- only one of them actually good (Bluff) - and some more skill points. You swap a genuinely useful feature for the ability to still be mediocre at something. Even worse, losing the feat and prof. makes it incompatible with other fighter variants, like Drow and Sneak Attack Fighter.

As for sneak attack...If you get your stance via Swordsage dip, then it is a class ability.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Fair enough, Zhent gives you a reliable means of sneak attack...after waiting around 8 levels with sneak attack and not much to work it with.

...You could use it to Sneak Attack, as normal? Rogues have been doing it for a decade; you still do it better, because you're a full BAB class.

I don't understand why you're talking up "things the Fighter can do that aren't damage" in support of the sneak attack variant, when trading feats for SA is literally trading options other than doing damage for more damage.
And what is Thug adding to the Zhent/SA combo, other than not actually stacking with it due to replacing the same class feature?

I... What?

If Sneak Attack Fighter and Thug can't stack, Sneak Attack Fighter's wording becomes incredibly confusing, since this is literally all of it:

Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant.

Emphasis mine. Notice how half of the text of Sneak Attack fighter implies heavily (if not stating outright) that the two variants can be combined.

Sneak Attack Thug Zhentarim Fighter is your 4+INT skill Rogue with Sneak Attack--nothing tremendously impressive there. It does melee Sneak Attack better than a Rogue (by virtue of being a full BAB class with d10 HD), and doesn't do skills nearly as well, but still better than the Fighter (with a Human and/or nonnegative INT, you might have enough for Jump, Tumble, Intimidate, AND another skill! Maybe even Bluff!). Zhentarim Fighter ties this otherwise droll package up with a beautiful bow: for free, the Zhentarim Fighter gets a minor, but useful, application of Intimidate out-of-combat (making them an okay secondary face), and an excellent means of debuffing in-combat that gives him a trick worthy of devoting builds to, that doesn't actually have a significant action cost, so he can still do other things, too.

Sure, Zhentarim Fighter is carrying most of the weight here, but without Thug, you have to choose between max ranks in Intimidate and the ability to tie your own shoes (and forget about skill tricks), and Sneak Attack on a full BAB class synergizes predictably well with the ability to deny an enemy their DEX bonus as a swift action. The Fighter can now do more than one thing: it can do damage (true with feats just as much as Sneak Attack, just in different ways), it can debuff and disable enemies (without getting in the way of its main shtick), and it can use skills. Plural.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You lack UMD, or stealth, or even Tumble to help get into a flank with (though I guess swapping Ride for it is an option), is what I mean.

Ok, that wording is strange. Thug gives up the 1st level bonus feat, and SA fighter replaces all bonus feats. They should not be stackable... Not sure what takes priority, the fluff text or the actual mechanical changes....

Even if they do stack, I'd much rather do Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Drow Fighter. It is a nice trick, if doing SA variant anyway, to trade the feat you already gave up anyway for Thug, though.

[Vaz]

As for sneak attack...If you get your stance via Swordsage dip, then it is a class ability.

That you have the ability to take a Stance is the Class Ability; that the Stance itself provides the Sneak Attack is not.

If it requested the class Ability "Power Attack" and you took Fighter 1 for a Bonus Feat Class Ability getting Power Attack, then it's the Feat, not the class ability providing the difference.

Edit; no confusion at all regarding Sneak Attack Thug Fighter. It explicitly allows it. No trick whatsoever; the intention was always there; otherwise as you say, there is very little mechanical benefit to a straight SA Fighter.

[Lans]

You lack UMD, or stealth, or even Tumble to help get into a flank with (though I guess swapping Ride for it is an option), is what I mean.

Ok, that wording is strange. Thug gives up the 1st level bonus feat, and SA fighter replaces all bonus feats. They should not be stackable... Not sure what takes priority, the fluff text or the actual mechanical changes....

Even if they do stack, I'd much rather do Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Drow Fighter. It is a nice trick, if doing SA variant anyway, to trade the feat you already gave up anyway for Thug, though.

The wording on the abilities lets you be a zhentarim thug sneak attacking hit and run dungeon crashing fighter. The abilities don't say you trade or swap. They say you don't gain X. I would argue that the zhent levels override the sneak attack so you lose 2-3 die of damage if you take them, but i could be wrong.

Now the ones in complete champion and planar handbook say they replace the normal bonus feat, so those are a no go.