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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Vigorous Soul (and the rest of the Vigor line) doesn't include a DC for the Fort save to avoid the costs.

    Also, the feats specify that you start with LP equal to 25,000 + 1,000 per point of Constitution bonus, while the original is a flat 5,000 per point of constitution.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2007-04-30 at 06:14 AM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Vigorous Soul
    Fixed; sorry that was an oversight on my part. Thank you, JS, for your constructive criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Also
    Fixed; sorry again, that was an older version of the starting LP (Version 2.0, guaranteed to get a bio-mage killed by about 15th level).
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2007-04-30 at 11:15 PM. Reason: removing notice

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    You're welcome.

    I'm kinda surprised at the flat DC - 18 is a tricky save at 1st (with the poor Fort save, you're looking at basically just the racial abilities at 1st; you can get a +5 save from a Con of 20, perhaps +1 from a friendly Cleric or Wizard's Resistence spell, so 12 or better for a 45% success rate, and that's about the best-case scenario), nearly a given at 20th (+5 from a 20 base con, +5 Cloak of Resistence, +3 from a +6 Amulet of Health, +6 from level based Fort save = +19 ... and there's more to add). I might suggest something more in the way of a 15+spell level; at 1st, your +5 Con bonus and +1 Resistance bonus from a friendly mage casting Resistance on you nets you a +6 for a 65% chance of ignoring a cantrip or a 60% chance of ignoring a 1st level spell (a slighly more likely scenario is a +3 Con bonus and no help for a 45% and 40% chance of ignoring the costs). At 20th, you're looking at a DC 24 for a 9th level effect... which is still going to be a little chancy... but you can almost automatically make a 5th level effect....
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    I'm glad you've become so numerically-invested in this project even though you've written it off as broken, JS. Thank you for your input; I will consider your ideas, especially you last thought on the Vigor DC. You have a good point, & the math supports it well. I'll most likely adopt your approach.

    EDIT: I made a change in the vigor-feats' DCs, as per one of JS's suggestions.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2007-04-30 at 11:24 PM. Reason: add edit

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Prestige Classes
    The following are all prestige classes that bio-mages can aspire to. In addition to these exclusive choices, they may attempt to adopt any prestige class that is not automatically prohibited, & may use their Bio-Magic feature to qualify for any class that has spellcasting as a prerequisite.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    PrC #1: Vampire Mage
    It is a well-known fact that bio-mages have a finite amount of life energy within them, & that once it is spent, they will surely die. What is less well-known, however, is that some bio-mages are rather bothered by this fact. So much so, in fact, that a few of them actively seek to prolong their dwindling lives by regaining spent LP. This can lead them to committing desperate acts against their own kind, stalking other bio-mages so that they may drain them of Life Points.

    These foul beings are known as Vampire Mages, & are justly feared & hated among other bio-mages. Like true vampires, these monstrous beings seek to survive at any cost, & are willing to sacrifice their humanity to do so. The most advanced of these life-raping fiends are no longer even alive in the purest sense, merely prolonging a damned existence, & paying a price far higher than their lives.

    Requirements
    • Race: Bio-Mage
    • Alignment: any evil
    • BAB: +4
    • Feats: Bio-Drain, Greater Bio-Drain
    • Special: In addition, he must have drained at least 1,000LP from another bio-mage using the Bio-Drain feats

    Fastest Route: Bio 2/Ftr 3

    Class Information
    Hit Die: d12
    Class Skills: The Vampire Mage’s class skills (& the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), & Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:21 AM. Reason: adjusting fastest route, as per JS's suggestion

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    PrC #1: Vampire Mage
    It is a well-known fact that bio-mages have a finite amount of life energy within them, & that once it is spent, they will surely die. What is less well-known, however, is that some bio-mages are rather bothered by this fact. So much so, in fact, that a few of them actively seek to prolong their dwindling lives by regaining spent LP. This can lead them to committing desperate acts against their own kind, stalking other bio-mages so that they may drain them of Life Points.

    These foul beings are known as Vampire Mages, & are justly feared & hated among other bio-mages. Like true vampires, these monstrous beings seek to survive at any cost, & are willing to sacrifice their humanity to do so. The most advanced of these life-raping fiends are no longer even alive in the purest sense, merely prolonging a damned existence, & paying a price far higher than their lives.

    Requirements
    Race: Bio-Mage
    Alignment: any evil
    BAB: +4
    Feats: Bio-Drain, Greater Bio-Drain
    Special: In addition, he must have drained at least 1,000LP from another bio-mage using the Bio-Drain feats

    Fastest Route: Bio 1/Ftr 4

    Class Information
    Hit Die: d12
    Class Skills: The Vampire Mage’s class skills (& the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), & Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
    More Coming?

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-1: The Vampire Mage (PrC)
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Bio-Magic Perception|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Life Drain|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Finger Claws (+0 grapple)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Improved Grab|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Unnatural Being|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Finger Claws (+1 grapple)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Item Drain|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Mesmerize|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Finger Claws (+2 grapple)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Vampiric Being|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:23 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-2: Claw Damage by Size
    {table=head]Size|3rd Level Damage|6th Level Damage|9th Level Damage
    Fine|1|1d2|1d3
    Diminutive|1d2|1d3|1d4
    Tiny|1d3|1d4|1d6
    Small|1d4|1d6|1d8
    Medium|1d6|1d8|2d6
    Large|1d8|2d6|2d8
    Huge|2d6|2d8|4d6
    Gargantuan|2d8|4d6|4d8
    Colossal|4d6|4d8|4d10[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:35 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Vampire Mage. See level progression on Table 3-1: The Vampire Mage (PrC) for more information.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Spells per Day: When a new vampire mage level is gained, you gain new spells per day as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class you belonged to before adding the prestige class. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a vampire mage, you must decide to which class you add the new level for purposes of determining spells known.

    Bio-Magic Perception (Su): You can sense beings & objects around you that contain Life Points. This includes other bio-mages, as well as bio-magically infused items. As a free action, you can spend 1LP to detect the direction & distance of other bio-mages & bio-magically-infused objects for 1 round. If an LP source is within 5’ of you, you can tell exactly how much LP it contains. Within 20’, you can how much LP the source contains to the nearest 1,000LP. Within 40’, you can tell approximately how strong the source is:
    • Less than 100LP = trace
    • 100-500LP = faint
    • 501-5,000LP = weak
    • 5,001-15,000LP = moderate
    • 15,001-30,000LP = strong
    • 30,001-50,000LP = mighty
    • More than 50,000LP = overwhelming

    Within 60’, you can tell the rough direction & distance of the source. Out past 60’, you cannot detect a source of LP. This ability ignores invisibility, concealment & cover, but can be fooled by greater invisibility.

    Life Drain (Su): At 2nd level, you can drain LP from another bio-mage with your hands by making a successful grapple check. If you pin your enemy, you may draw out LP equal to your class level × 50 each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful drain, you add that amount to your total LP pool. Doing so affects you opponent as if they had spent an equal amount of LP (possibly becoming fatigued or exhausted as a result). Your opponent is not allowed a Fortitude save to negate this LP drain. You can only drain LP from a particular opponent once a day per your opponent’s bio-mage level. You cannot contain more LP than you started with at 1st level (your starting Constitution score × 5,000).

    Finger Claws (Ex): At 3rd level, your fingers become bony & claw-like, able to deal piercing/slashing damage (20/×2) on a successful melee attack. These claws are natural weapons. At 6th level, your claws deal more damage on a successful attack, & add a +1 circumstance bonus to your grapple check. At 9th level, your claws deal even greater damage on a successful attack, & add a +2 circumstance bonus to your grapple check. If you do not already have claw attacks, use the appropriate damage value from Table 3-2: Claw Damage by Size. If you already have other kinds of natural weapons, retain your old damage values or use the appropriate value on Table 3-2, whichever is better.

    Improved Grab (Ex): At 4th level, you become quite adept at grappling your opponents. On a successful claw attack, you deal normal damage. In addition, you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. This maneuver only works against opponents of the same size category or smaller. When you get a hold after an improved grab attack, you pull your opponent into your space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can even move (possibly even carrying away your opponent), provided you can drag your opponent’s weight. Holding onto an opponent does not deal them any automatic damage, although you can choose to attack them, if you wish.

    Unnatural Being (Ex): At 5th level, you have progressed down the path of vampirism so far that you have lost some of your connection to the natural world. Your features take on a hardened, feral look, & your eyes become wild & predatory, like those of a wolf. You gain a +6 natural armor bonus. You also suffer a -2 Charisma penalty when dealing with humanoids (this penalty does not count toward Intimidate checks), unless you succeed a Disguise check (DC15) beforehand. In addition, you now lose 10LP per day, regardless of activity.

    Item Drain (Su): At 7th level, you can drain LP from items infused with bio-magic. To obtain the LP, you must first break the item, reducing the object’s HP to 0. Once that it done, you may draw out LP with a successful touch attack. The LP you gain from the item is equal to your class level × 10 each round that you are touching it. You can drain LP from a particular item as often as you wish. You cannot withdraw more LP from an item than it currently possesses, & you cannot contain more LP than you started with at 1st level (your starting Constitution score × 5,000).

    Mesmerize (Su): At 8th level, you can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto their eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that you must use a standard action, and those merely looking at you are not affected. Anyone that you target must succeed a Will save or fall instantly under your influence as though by a dominate person spell (the caster level is equal to your class level). The ability has a range of 30’ & costs 120LP.

    Vampiric Being (Ex): At 10th level, your transformation into a vampire-like creature is complete. Your type becomes [Undead], & your subtype becomes [Augmented Humanoid], with all of the benefits & drawbacks of that type/subtype (no Constitution, Darkvision, lack of breathing/eating/sleeping, etc). You no longer age, & all bonuses/penalties for advanced age are negated. In addition, you now lose 100LP per day, regardless of activity.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 09:06 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Vampire Mage:

    What can I say?

    You burn faster, but you get an improved ability to suck the life out of your opponents... but only when they happen to be bio-mages. How often the bonuses of the PrC will be useful depends a lot on the campaign, and how common other bio-mages are.

    Bio magic perception, as written, will cause the death of the vampire - sure, when he finally finds a bio-mage, it's a rich prize (oddly, the lower the CR, the better the prize; bigger prize for a weaker opponent is not how D&D usually runs) but unless they are fairly common, he's usually going to be wasting LP's. Meanwhile, his burn rate increases. With replaceable characters (most people don't consider themselves replaceable, but players will often consider character's replaceable) it's a great class. With unreplaceable characters (in character stance, and the flavor of the class), it's usually going to be suicide.

    Most munchkins will stop taking levels in the class, either at 4th (to avoid the drawbacks of being Unnatural at 5th) or at 9th (to avoid the drawbacks of being undead at 10th). Other than those two stages, a level of Vampire Mage is usually going to be better than a level of Bio-mage - double the HD size, better BAB, same saves and skillpoints.

    The Vampire Mage is basically a more extreme version of the bio-mage - higher personal burn, but more personal power (oh, and there's going to be two common entries - Bio-mage 2/Full BAB class 3 or Bio-mage 8 - little in between; some, but not many, will take the Bio-mage 1/Fighter-4 you note; but the increased power that 2nd level spells brings more to the table than the extra feat and average of 2 HP that the Fighter-4 level brings to the table).

    If bio-magic perception was no charge, it wouldn't be nearly as suicidal of a PrC. If the class gained some ability to drain LP from characters who aren't bio-mages, it wouldn't be nearly as suicidal. As it stands, it's a PrC for nova PCs, or for very crafty NPCs (train a commoner-1 into a commoner-1/Bio-mage 1, paralize student, drain all LP's; every so often, let one live, so you can point to successful students). Even for the crafty NPC's, though, you can get much the same effect simply with the required feats and more bio-mage levels, as once you have a subject helpless, there's no practical limit on how often you can use the draining touch (even the least version) to drain - and the highest save character is still going to face the nat-1 clause.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2007-05-01 at 04:40 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    PrC #2: Infusionist
    Bio-magic manifests itself in people of all walks of life. From the most humble street urchin to the most privileged prince, anyone could feel the emerging flush of powerful energy welling up inside of them that marks the birth of a bio-mage. Those who have come from a creative background (be it art, music, or crafting) often feel the desire to continue their practice of making tangible items. Those who do find that bio-magic can be harnessed to facilitate an inventive endeavor, & so quickly learn the art of crafting items infused with bio-magic.

    Literally pouring their own life essence into their craft, these bio-mages specialize in charging items with bio-magical energy. They can also use their power to create ordinary items & constructs with ease & speed. Their abilities make them quite welcome in civilized lands, where construction & expansion is eternal, & something always needs to be built.

    Requirements
    • Race: Bio-Mage
    • Skills: Craft (any) 10 ranks, Spellcraft 10 ranks
    • Feats: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, any other 2 item creation feats

    Fastest Route: Bio 9

    Class Information
    Hit Die: d6
    Class Skills: The Infusionist’s class skills (& the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (any) (Int), Disable Device (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), & Spellcraft (Int).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-3: The Infusionist (PrC)
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Infusion Points, Bonus Feat|--
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Retain Essence|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Heightened Crafting (×1)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Mundane Enchantment|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Heightened Crafting (×2)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Item Defense|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Heightened Crafting (×3)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-4: Infusion Points by Level
    {table=head]Level|Infusion Points|LP Equivalent
    1st|100IP|2LP
    2nd|250IP|5LP
    3rd|500IP|10LP
    4th|1,000IP|20LP
    5th|1,750IP|35LP
    6th|2,750IP|55LP
    7th|4,000IP|80LP
    8th|5,500IP|110LP
    9th|7,500IP|150LP
    10th|10,000IP|200LP[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Infusionist. See level progression on Table 3-3: The Infusionist (PrC) for more information.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Spells per Day: When a new infusionist level is gained, you gain new spells per day as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class you belonged to before adding the prestige class. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an infusionist, you must decide to which class you add the new level for purposes of determining spells known.

    Infusion Points (Su): You gain Infusion Points at every class level. These points can be used for the creation of magic items instead of spending XP or LP, & are spent at the same rate as LP (the base price (or market price, whichever is higher) divided by 50). IP cannot be used for any other purpose than creating magic items, even for creating temporarily magic items using the bio-mage’s standard Infusion ability. IP & LP can both be spent on creating the same item, if necessary. See IP progression on Table 3-4: Infusion Points by Level for more information.

    Bonus Feat: You can select any item creation feat as a bonus feat. You gain a bonus feat at 1st level, & an additional bonus feat every 3 levels thereafter (4th, 7th, & 10th). Item creation feats include Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, & Scribe Scroll. You must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. You are not limited to the list of bonus feats when choosing these feats.

    Retain Essence (Su): At 2nd level, you can salvage LP from one magic item to use in another one. After creating an item, you can make a Spellcraft check (DC). A success means that you can extract LP equal to your class level × 40, adding that amount back into your total LP pool. This LP cannot be in excess of what was originally put into the item. The item must be one that you created, & the check must be made on the same day that you created it.

    Heightened Crafting (Ex): Once per day, at 3rd level, you can cast one of the following spells as if you were 1 caster level higher:
    • 0LV: Arcana Mark, Mending
    • 1LV: Animate Rope, Unseen Servant
    • 2LV: Levitate, Locate Object
    • 3LV: Haste, Shrink Item
    • 4LV: Dimension Door, Minor Creation
    • 5LV: Fabricate, Major Creation, Stone Shape, Telekinesis, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone
    • 6LV: Mass Haste, Move Earth
    • 7LV: Teleport without Error, Vanish
    • 8LV: Discern Location

    The LP cost for casting these spells remains the same. At 6th level, you can cast these spells as if you were 2 caster levels higher twice per day. At 9th level, you can cast these spells as if you were 3 caster levels higher three (3) times per day.

    Mundane Enchantment (Su): At 5th level, you can turn non-masterwork items into magical ones. Anytime you wish to create a magic item out of a mundane object, make a Spellcraft check (DC15 + enhancement bonus, if any) after you have performed the necessary steps to do so. Success means that the item is now magical, failure results in a ruined (50%) or cursed (50%) item. The DM should secretly make the Spellcraft check, so the player does not know the outcome.

    Item Defense (Su): At 8th level, you have learned to protect yourself from a magical item’s harmful effects. Whenever you would suffer HP damage or ability damage from a magical item, you receive a +8 competence bonus of your saving throw to avoid the effect. This feature has no effect against attacks without saving throws, mundane item damage, masterwork item damage, or damage taken from spells or spell-like abilities that originate directly from spellcasters or monsters.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 11:04 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Wouldn't it be easier to just convert to the psionics power point system than coming up with a clunky 1,000,000 point system that brings your character one step closer to complete and utter non-playability everytime he uses his major class feature?

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Quote Originally Posted by Tor the Fallen View Post
    Wouldn't it be easier to just convert to the psionics power point system than coming up with a clunky 1,000,000 point system that brings your character one step closer to complete and utter non-playability every time he uses his major class feature?
    No, because merely adding a point system to magic is only a side effect of the larger issue. As stated earlier in the premise section, I have 2 major issues with the current magic system:

    1) Magic rarely costs the caster anything of value, which is absurd.
    2) When magic actually does have a real price, it comes from XP, which is even more absurd.

    The psionics system doesn't address either qualm that I have. A psionic character regains Power Points rapidly, so they need not worry about the use of their powers. Psionics may be "balanced", but I'm not trying to fix psionics. Magic, though, is commonly viewed as broken, & its the inherent lack of an adequate slow-down mechanism that I believe is the root of this brokenness.

    By putting a dire price on magic, the player is faced with a simple, yet dramatic choice: do I use my powers & die, or not use my powers & die? I also encourages a creative mindset: how do I get the most bang for my bio-magical buck? A DM could easily use the inherent restrictions of bio-magic, combined with its versatility & power, to set any form of balance that he or she wishes.

    As written, a bio-mage player needs to be smart in order to survive. Running around, blasting everything, pretending to be a wizard will get them killed. That's the way I made it. DM's don't want dumb players. DM's don't want people to take actions without thinking about the consequences.

    I don't dislike magic in the slightest. I love spells. I just detest the lack of self-control that arises in casters when they realize that magic can be used indefinitely. I am disheartened every time the party wizard casts his way around a dungeon or BBEG that I spent weeks designing. And I am annoyed that the RAW approach to magic is basically "It can do anything for free."
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    No, because merely adding a point system to magic is only a side effect of the larger issue. As stated earlier in the premise section, I have 2 major issues with the current magic system:

    1) Magic rarely costs the caster anything of value, which is absurd.
    2) When magic actually does have a real price, it comes from XP, which is even more absurd.

    The psionics system doesn't address either qualm that I have. A psionic character regains Power Points rapidly, so they need not worry about the use of their powers. Psionics may be "balanced", but I'm not trying to fix psionics. Magic, though, is commonly viewed as broken, & its the inherent lack of an adequate slow-down mechanism that I believe is the root of this brokenness.

    By putting a dire price on magic, the player is faced with a simple, yet dramatic choice: do I use my powers & die, or not use my powers & die? I also encourages a creative mindset: how do I get the most bang for my bio-magical buck? A DM could easily use the inherent restrictions of bio-magic, combined with its versatility & power, to set any form of balance that he or she wishes.

    As written, a bio-mage player needs to be smart in order to survive. Running around, blasting everything, pretending to be a wizard will get them killed. That's the way I made it. DM's don't want dumb players. DM's don't want people to take actions without thinking about the consequences.

    I don't dislike magic in the slightest. I love spells. I just detest the lack of self-control that arrises in casters when they realize that magic can be used indefinately. I am disheartened every time the party wizard casts his way around a dungeon or BBEG that I spent weeks designing. And I am annoyed that the RAW approach to magic is basically "It can do anything for free."
    That is all fun and good, but i would recomend not having them loose 1 LP per day? Why? Because it give them a defeatist sense, and also
    "well if i'm going to die anyways, why don't i just blast this guy to pieces/powergame to my hearts content"
    I mean, i could make bio mage character, use as many LP as possible, die, but do tons of damage. Then make a normal character. I really would surrgest, not to do the burn out rate
    from,
    EE

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    PrC#3: Font of Life
    While some bio-mages bemoan their brief, turbulent lives, others embrace the power that fate has granted them, selflessly giving up their life-force for the benefit of others. These bio-magical martyrs are extremely devoted to well-being of their neighbors, friends, & family; they will gladly lay down their lives to protect them. These driven individuals are known as Fonts of Life, & to those who carelessly wreak destruction & havoc, they are implacable foes.

    Not known for their combat prowess, they instead specialize in healing & curative magics. Since positive energy harms the undead, Fonts of Life are particularly effective against necromantic beings. Most of their abilities revolve around healing or protecting themselves & others, although their spell choices are not restricted to healing, & their Explosive Beam ability can be very deadly to anyone who crosses a Font’s path.

    Requirements
    • Race: Bio-Mage
    • Alignment: any good
    • Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells & 1st level divine spells

    Fastest Route: Bio 2/Drd 1

    Class Information
    Hit Die: d6
    Class Skills: The Font’s class skills (& the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (any) (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int) & Spot (Wis).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 11:07 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-5: The Font of Life (PrC)
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Channel Positive Energy (Healing Beam)|--
    2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Divine Grace|+1 level of divine spellcasting class
    3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Remove Disease (1/week)|+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
    4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bio-Share|+1 level of divine spellcasting class
    5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Channel Positive Energy (Charging Beam)|+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
    6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Remove Disease (2/week)|+1 level of divine spellcasting class
    7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Divine Health|+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
    8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Timeless Body|+1 level of divine spellcasting class
    9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Remove Disease (3/week)|+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
    10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Channel Positive Energy (Explosive Beam)|+1 level of divine spellcasting class[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Font of Life. See level progression on Table 3-5: The Font of Life (PrC) for more information.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Spells per Day: When a new font of life level is gained, you gain new spells per day as if you had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class you belonged to before you added the prestige class or any one divine spellcasting class you belonged to previously. Arcane spellcasting is gained upon reaching odd-numbered levels, whereas divine spellcasting is gained upon reaching even-numbered levels. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a font of life, you must decide to which class you add each level of font of life for the purpose of determining spells known.

    Channel Positive Energy (Su): You can channel positive energy, healing yourself & others. This shaft of white light is considered a ranged touch attack that ignores armor bonuses, cover or concealment, but otherwise functions normally. The range of this beam is 5’ per class level. You can always choose to use lower strengths for the beam, if you desire. Any undead creatures struck by this ability lose HP at the same rate that a non-undead creature would normally gain it.
    • Healing Beam: At 1st level, you can send out a beam of positive energy. Those who are struck by it gain Fast Healing 2 as an extraordinary ability for 1d20 rounds. This beam costs 25LP to use.
    • Charging Beam: At 5th level, the beam’s power increases so as to grant those successfully hit by it Fast Healing 4 as an extraordinary ability for 1d20 rounds; in addition, those at full HP gain 4 additional temporary HP per round. This temporary HP fades 1d20 rounds after the person was struck by the beam. This beam costs 50LP to use.
    • Explosive Beam: At 10th level, the beam’s power increases so as to grant those successfully hit by it Fast Healing 6 as an extraordinary ability for 1d20 rounds; in addition, those at full HP gain 6 additional temporary HP per round. This temporary HP fades 1d20 rounds after the person was struck by the beam, & anyone given temporary HP using this ability must make a Fortitude save (DC20) each round that their temporary HP exceeds their normal HP total. Failing the saving throw results in the person exploding in a riot of energy, killing them instantly & dealing 15d6 to anyone within a 10’ radius; a successful Reflex save (DC15) can reduce this damage by 50%. This beam costs 100LP to use.

    Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

    Remove Disease (Sp): At 3rd level, you can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per week. At 6th level, you can use this ability twice per week. At 9th level, you can use this ability three times per week.

    Bio-Share (Su): At 4th level, on a successful touch attack, you can transfer LP to an ally. You may transfer as much LP as you wish to, but transferring LP has the same effect on you as spending LP, so all fatigue & exhaustion conditions still apply. You may only transfer LP to a character that has at least 1 level of bio-mage.

    Divine Health (Ex): At 7th level, you gain immunity to all diseases, including supernatural & magical diseases.

    Timeless Body (Ex): At 8th level, you no longer take ability score penalties for aging & cannot be magically aged. Any penalties you may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and you will still die of old age (or more likely, LP loss) when your time is up.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 12:39 PM. Reason: double-post error

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    You triple posted...

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Fixed triple post. I apologize to my many adoring fans. And my equally-adoring enemies.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    I like the flavor and construction of this class very much theme-wise; as a style of magic in story-based fiction it would work marvelously well.

    As a mechanically balanced option, I'm not 100% sure that the limitation of finite lifespan burned down by spellcasting is a satisfying one.

    It terms of putting a harsh, real, and life-threatening cost on spellcasting, I'm just curious: did you consider a hit point-draining mechanic, or a stat-draining one, before settling on the LP bank?

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Really cool ideas here, zeta. I perticularly like the linking of Constitution to spellcasting; I've done this on a much lesser scale here with Arcane Exhaustion (basically, you get bonus spell points based on your level and Con modifier, but you're fatigued/exhausted/unconscious after using them). I suppose my system, since it's based on spellpoints, is in some of the same ways different from Vancian. My only criticism is that playing a Bio-Mage would be a lot of bookkeepping to record your LP all the time.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    I did consider an HP cost, & that wasn't a bad way to go. But hit points are incredibly variable, & Wizards have less of them than any other class (except Sorcerers). Admittedly, this can be supplemented with a high Constitution (just like a bio-mage), but overall there is too little to work with to have a scaling spell cost system that doesn't threaten to kill the caster everyday, at every level. Also, theoretically the healer in the party can just slap those points right back on you, sucking all of the drama out of the class & forcing the party healer to eat the cost of your spells. Just try getting a player who runs a cleric to deal with that. Lastly, to use an HP-based system, I'd have to scrap all of the bio-healing class features, leaving a lot of dead levels, which I dislike. I guess I could've stretched out bio-boost features & added more bonus feats, but I still like LP.

    As for heavy bookkeeping, it's about the same variation as XP of a psionicist's PP, which is less than HP & a LOT less than an artificer's class reserve points. Upkeep is a part of every class's abilities. Even fighters have equipment to acquire & maintain. I have yet to find a system that has more upkeep that the Armor as Damage Reduction variant ruleset from Unearthed Arcana. Now there's bookkeeping. Especially if you factor in hit points for armor. Ugh.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    PrC #4: Bio-Shaper
    Long ago, a strange cult of bio-mages unlocked a way to change their own forms, changing parts of their bodies, forcing changes in the bodies of their enemies, & even becoming creatures for a short time. Reviled as abominations, the surrounding kingdom’s men raided their secret haven, slaughtering the cabal. Thinking that they had eradicated the monsters, the townspeople never suspected that members of the sect had survived. That is, until it was too late.

    Modern-day bio-shapers are the cultural descendants of that long-forgotten cult, who passed on their knowledge from elder to apprentice. Today these shape-shifting bio-mages are masters in the art of flesh-crafting, changing the form & appearance of living things, especially himself. They are little understood & much feared by ordinary people, so these freakish beings often travel in disguise, either using traditional costumes to hide their more unusual parts, or in animal form.

    Requirements
    • Race: Bio-Mage
    • BAB: +3
    • Spellcasting: must know alter self

    Fastest Route: Bio 2/Ftr 2

    Class Information
    Hit Die: d8
    Class Skills: The Bio-Shaper’s class skills (& the key ability for each skill) are Animal Empathy (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int) (any), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Spellcraft (Int), & Survival (Wis).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 01:14 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-6: The Bio-Shaper (PrC)
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
    1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|1st Bizarre Feature|--
    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Therianthropy (Animal, S/M, 1/day)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|2nd Bizarre Feature|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Twist Body|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|3rd Bizarre Feature|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Therianthropy (Plant, T/L, 4/day)|--
    7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|4th Bizarre Feature|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Twist Mind|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|5th Bizarre Feature|+1 level of existing spellcasting class
    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Therianthropy (Elemental, D/H, 7/day)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Table 3-7: Bizarre Features
    {table=head]D%|Body Part|Feature|Benefit
    01-04|Arms|bulging muscles|+4 Strength
    05-08|Arms|long arms|+5' to reach
    09-12|Body|aquatic gills|can breathe water
    13-16|Body|heart of steel|+4 Constitution
    17-20|Body|leather wings|Fly (clumsy)
    21-24|Body|long tail|slap damage 1d6 (20/x2)
    25-28|Body|sleek fins|+5 on Swim checks
    29-32|Body|wise spirit|+4 Wisdom
    33-36|Body|writhing tentacles|constrict damage 1d4+3
    37-40|Ears|beastly ears|+4 on Listen checks
    41-44|Eyes|slit pupils|Darkvision (60')
    45-48|Feet|digitigrade paws|+4 Dexterity
    49-52|Hands|long fingers|+5 on Grapple checks
    53-56|Hands|nail claws|claw damage 1d6 (20/x2)
    57-60|Head|goring horns|+1d6 on a bull rush
    61-64|Head|mind of a genius|+4 Intelligence
    65-68|Legs|bulging muscles|+10 on Jump checks
    69-72|Legs|long legs|+10' to speed
    73-76|Mouth|fanged maw|bite damage 1d6 (20/x2)
    77-80|Mouth|pecking beak|stabbing damage 1d6 (20/x2)
    81-84|Nose|protruding snout|Scent ability
    85-88|Skin|camoflaging pigments|+5 on Hide checks
    89-92|Skin|coat of feathers|if able to fly, Fly (poor)
    93-96|Skin|luxuriant fur|+5 Cold resistance
    97-100|Skin|tough hide|+4 natural armor bonus[/table]
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: How to Eliminate Vancian Magic & Put a Real Price on Spells [New Core Class + 5 P

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Bio-Shaper. See level progression on Table 3-6: The Bio-Shaper (PrC) for more information.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency: You gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Spells per Day: When a new bio-shaper level is gained, you gain new spells per day as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class you belonged to before adding the prestige class. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a bio-shaper, you must decide to which class you add the new level for purposes of determining spells known.

    Bizarre Feature (Ex): Your body is partially transformed, giving you freakish physical traits. You can either select a strange body part from Table 3-7: Bizarre Features, or roll for one randomly. The same feature cannot be acquired more than once; if this occurs, re-roll for a different feature. These features each give you a -2 Charisma penalty when dealing with humanoids & monstrous humanoids (this penalty does not count toward Intimidate checks), unless you succeed a Disguise check (DC15) beforehand. You gain a second feature at 3rd level, a third at 5th level, a fourth at 7th level, & a fifth at 9th level. All penalties to Charisma accrued by this feature stack. Each feature costs 100LP to acquire, & is permanent. Only a wish or a miracle can remove a feature, restoring the body part back to its original appearance & function. Bizarre features are disguised while you are in animal form (see Therianthropy, below), but cannot be camouflaged by most other means, including polymorph spells.

    Therianthropy (Su): At 2nd level, you gain the ability to turn yourself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. This works identically to a druid’s Wild Shape ability, with the following changes. Your subtype becomes [Shapechanger]. At 2nd level, you can only take a form with the [Animal] type & the Small or Medium size. At 6th level, you can also take on a form with the [Plant] type & the Tiny or Large size. At 10th level, you can also take on a form with the [Elemental] type & the Diminutive or Huge size. Any transformation you take (either from person to creature, creature to creature, or creature to person) costs 25LP.

    Twist Body (Su): At 4th level, you can bestow a weird body part on another creature, causing them great harm. This only works on creatures of the [Aberration], [Animal], [Dragon], [Giant], [Humanoid], [Magical Beast], [Monstrous Humanoid], [Plant], [Undead], & [Vermin] types; all other types of creatures are unaffected. This attack is a full-round action that provokes attack of opportunity, & costs 100LP per use. With a successful touch attack, you may roll randomly on Table 3-7: Bizarre Features, or you can simply select one. The same feature cannot be acquired more than once; if this occurs, re-roll for a different feature. If your opponent already possesses this feature, then this attack has no effect. If your opponent does not already have this feature, then they become wracked with agonizing pain, suffering 5d6+15 points of damage & becoming dazed for 1 round. The next round, once the dazed effect wears off, your opponent manifests the Bizarre Feature & takes -4 Dexterity drain. The feature is permanent (although the damage & Dexterity drain can be healed normally), unless removed with a heal spell, a regenerate spell, a greater restoration, a limited wish, a wish, or a miracle. Your opponent can make a Fortitude save (DC15 + your class level) to negate the feature, although they still suffer half damage (the Dexterity drain is also negated). You can bestow this feature on an ally, & they can even choose to fail their Fortitude save, but both the damage & Dexterity drain will still occur.

    Twist Mind (Su): At 8th level, you can drive an opponent mad with your body-altering prowess. Once you have successfully used Twist Body on a creature, you may attack their mind with a successful touch attack. This acts identically to an insanity spell (i.e. constantly confused). In addition, your opponent takes 1d4+2 points of Wisdom drain. This attack is a standard action that provokes attack of opportunity, & costs 50LP. Your opponent can make a Will save (DC15 + your class level) to negate the confused condition, although they still suffer half the Wisdom drain.
    Last edited by Zeta Kai; 2008-10-05 at 01:20 PM.

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