Making Due: An Optimisers Challenge

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There was a thread a while back in which someone was lamenting that his gaming group were horridly sub-optimal, and he was trying to not completely outshine them. The topic diverged, and someone made the comment "So take a crappy class and optimize THAT", and, well, check my sig for the following comment.

Okay, by now, most people are familiar with the Class Tier system, and it is widely regarded as accepted that some classes just... don't measure up.

I want them to.

So here's the challenge: Use a class which is widely regarded as 'weak' (Truenamer, CW Samurai, Monk...) and make it viable in a campaign.

The Rules:

* Nothing higher than a Tier 5 class. Tier system found here

* 32 point buy

* The exception is Lightning Warrior. While it is a Tier 7 character, due to lack of familiar and specialization, it is so completely hopeless and beyond help that we needn't bother.

* Resulting character must be able to reliably and consistently contribute something meaningful to a Tier 3 party.

*The majority of your levels (let's go with 3/4 of class levels) MUST be tier 5 or worse classes. Monk being touted as 'viable' by taking only 2 levels of it before going elsewhere doesn't make Monk more powerful, it just points out how weak it is that you have to minimize the problem. Multiclassing multiple Tier 5 or worse classes to create an effective build is not only allowed, but encouraged!

* No races with LA greater than +0. This is about the class being powerful, not about the race being powerful.

* The character must utilize skills and abilities granted by that class to be taken into consideration. Thus, using cross-class ranks in UMD and partially-charged wands is not going to be considered a viable entry, because it is not class-related.

* Pre-Epic characters only.

* Official WoTC sources only. No Dragon Mag. No web-publications. No Chicken-Infested

* No already known sources of extreme cheese (Pazuzu -> punpun, Candle of Invocations, Polycheeze, Diplomancer, infinite loops of any kind, Leadershp...). That would be the cheezy combo being cheezy, not the class being viable.

An example:

Spoiler

Show

Takahashi no Onisan. He used to be straight CW Samurai, but now he's still got 10 levels of it, so the majority of his levels are in CW Samurai, widely regarded as a joke. Mostly, the three levels of other classes are to augment and increase his basic combo: Intimidate to Demoralize and Lockdown. He's a fairly good lockdown tank, unless the opponents are Mindless or are Immune to Fear. Every opponent within 30' of him needs to make a DC 46 check (1d20 + HD + Wis Mod + save vs fear mods) or become Cowering. As a Move action. Every round.

Sure, he's not perfect. Mindless critters, or Paladins of 3rd level or higher, are immune to him. But yanno what? That leaves a *LOT* of things that are. And he's only 13th level. He'd probably be a lot better, and not as gear dependent, as a level 20 build.

Contest will run until Oct 31st. Any submissions made or edited after this date will be void. Voting will occur the following week.

Submissions:

Theldras Menatharan: Truenamer 20.*

Uses custom magic item to significantly boost power... might get a lot of milage out of a one-level dip in Exemplar to Take 10 on skill checks...

Fistbeard Beardfist :
Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4*

*normally has too many levels in PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely seen as a really lousy PrC that I'll let it slide.

Gralamin has submitted an entry, but Mind's Eye is not a valid source, as the rules explicitly prohibit web sources. Also, how are you Flurrying with your Mindblades when they aren't Monk weapons?

Draz has submitted Sir Cadrus but Karoti is a web-source, and thus not allowed, and it seems to be more about gear than about the class. I also don't see how he can qualify for Travel Devotion without the Travel Domain.

ZeroNumerous has submitted Iffy the Knifer who might benefit from the feat Shadow Blade enormously, if he can somehow shake the feat free to get it. I'm also surprised he didn't pick up the Diamond Mind strike which lets him attack as though his opponent was flat-footed, which should not only increase his damage output, but also his chances of hitting.

Dspyer has submitted this build, which makes surprising use out of Expert, although most of the damage comes from the Swordsage dip.

He has also submitted this interesting build. The only problem is that he doesn't have any levels of Rogue to qualify for Daring Outlaw (no, Assassin's Stance doesn't let you qualify), otherwise it would be even more amazing. Try Warblade1/Rogue3/Swashbuckler 16. Still legal

SonOfZeal has the +5 Holy Cajones to submit Bubs, who is only level 4, but still a significant threat with the pets he is able to tame. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a more powerful 4th level build, even with arcane early entry shennanigans, barring PunPun himself.

Ernir has submitted Allaria the Peacekeeper. He mentions significant damage output, but I don't see how with Vow of Peace *AND* Vow of Nonviolence.

Mabriss Lethe has submitted Civil Simon as a surprisingly versatile meatshield.

[Temet Nosce]

Half Minotaur Monk 11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 with various items for increasing damage size (mighty wallop, et al). I'm to lazy to calculate the damage, but if I recall right it would be in multiple D20s.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Half Minotaur Monk 11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 with various items for increasing damage size (mighty wallop, et al). I'm to lazy to calculate the damage, but if I recall right it would be in multiple D20s.

What about all those RHD's you are missing?

also, to try and place an emphasis on the class itself being power, rather than a gateway, I've explicitly listed that you must have 3/4 of your class levels (including RHD) and will be placing a limitation on races with LA over 0

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Adepts get Familiars. This makes them more powerful than tons of other classes, such as the Lightning Warrior.

[Grynning]

Adepts get Familiars. This makes them more powerful than tons of other classes, such as the Lightening Warrior.

I dunno, a "Lightening" warrior would imply that they can affect gravitational forces, bending physics in ways previously unknown to man. Or perhaps they can non-destructively reduce the mass of objects, violating the laws of thermodynamics. That sounds like a pretty potent ability.

If you're talking about a Lightning Warrior though...yeah, they would totally lose. They can't specialize either.

@Shneeky - that fight in your sig is made of win.

[Temet Nosce]

What about all those RHD's you are missing?

RHDs from what? Unless I'm even more forgetful than usual Half-minotaur is LA 1 with no RHD.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

RHDs from what? Unless I'm even more forgetful than usual Half-minotaur is LA 1 with no RHD.

Ahh, I didn't see the 'half' part. Updated to restrict LA races.

[Starbuck_II]

What about all those RHD's you are missing?

also, to try and place an emphasis on the class itself being power, rather than a gateway, I've explicitly listed that you must have 3/4 of your class levels (including RHD) and will be placing a limitation on races with LA over 0

1/2 Minotaur is a template, no RHD. Both it and 1/2 Ogre are better than the race they are based on as they grant size ability score bonuses (in addition to the stated bonuses).

A little cheesy, but not broken cheese.

[Adumbration]

If I recall correctly, Truenamer was rated pretty low in the tier system.

Here's my 20th level Truenamer.
And here's what he did, fighting Doomsday in a party.

I like to think he did adequately, although the fight was never finished. The only slightly questionable part of the character is the custom item of Third eye of Truespeak.

[Grynning]

I have a question about the intent of the thread, actually. What exactly do you mean by "viable in a campaign?" Because if you're setting the bar at Tier 4, that's not hard. Straight Rogue is viable in a campaign all by itself, as are several other well-known builds at that tier.

Do you perhaps mean that the characters should be competitive/comparable with Tier 3 and higher classes?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a question about the intent of the thread, actually. What exactly do you mean by "viable in a campaign?" Because if you're setting the bar at Tier 4, that's not hard. Straight Rogue is viable in a campaign all by itself, as are several other well-known builds at that tier.

Do you perhaps mean that the characters should be competitive/comparable with Tier 3 and higher classes?

Pardon, you are right. Setting the bar at Tier 5. Should be as effective as a normal Tier 3, or at least not be relegated to worthlessness in a Tier 3 party.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You should have a list of Tier 5 classes, and check off the ones that get optimized as time goes on.

[Adumbration]

To clarify the contestants, could someone post or link to the tier system we're talking about in this case? I for one don't have it handy right now.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Grynning]

I will link the original tier system post for ya:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1002.0

Everyone should bookmark this, I find it incredibly useful as a reference, whether you agree with it or not.

[Temet Nosce]

Ahh, I didn't see the 'half' part. Updated to restrict LA races.

Meh, still works even before you start in on magic increasing it. 1d10 with two size increases puts you at 1d20 before you even start modifying it. The Half-Minotaur part was just a general gesture towards how it could get even more powerful. Now if you were letting us play with more PrCs there's another class in some Dragon Magazines I seem to recall which also increases die size (D100s anyone?)

Regardless though, the build is perfectly feasible albeit not exactly impressive (working with D20s and various magic size/weapon size increasers it'd probably average a few hundred damage per turn, not exactly awe inspiring at those levels...)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You should have a list of Tier 5 classes, and check off the ones that get optimized as time goes on.

Well, there might be different ways of making the classes viable.

I focused on Lockdown via Intimidate for CW Samurai, but someone can also try to take advantage of the free Bastard Sword proficency, or the Duo Wield bonus feats and find a way to stack extra damage to be a decent damage dealer.

To clarify the contestants, could someone post or link to the tier system we're talking about in this case? I for one don't have it handy right now.

Updated in OP.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Meh, still works even before you start in on magic increasing it. 1d10 with two size increases puts you at 1d20 before you even start modifying it. The Half-Minotaur part was just a general gesture towards how it could get even more powerful. Now if you were letting us play with more PrCs there's another class in some Dragon Magazines I seem to recall which also increases die size (D100s anyone?)

Regardless though, the build is perfectly feasible albeit not exactly impressive (working with D20s and various magic size/weapon size increasers it'd probably average a few hundred damage per turn, not exactly awe inspiring at those levels...)

Go ahead and write it up and submit it, then. Just remember, 3/4 of the class levels have to be levels in the class you are showcasing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, there might be different ways of making the classes viable.

So make a list and check it twice.

Figure out who's been naughty or nice.

[Grynning]

I'm thinking the ultimate challenge here would be to multiclass between as many tier 5 and 6 classes as you can and make it work.

Miko from OoTS is kind of an example of this type of character, Paladin/Monk MC. You could throw in a dip of CW Samurai to grab her proficiency with her Daisho and TWF (which is strangely more optimal than burning the feats on it as her in-universe build does, remember, she has no levels in Samurai).

I'd like to do something with Soulknife but I don't own Complete Psionic or Secrets of Sarlona, which I think you'd really need for that one...hmm, I see a trip to half-price books in my future.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)

We could get it a familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, and force specialization by going into Red Wizard, but I don't know if it'll be enough, since we wouldn't be using class features of the Lightning Warrior.

[Eloel]

And really, without heal spells, he's prone to die.

[Grynning]

Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)

We could get it a familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, and force specialization by going into Red Wizard, but I don't know if it'll be enough, since we wouldn't be using class features of the Lightning Warrior.

Shneeky seems to have fixed the OP to account Lightning Warrior ;)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm thinking the ultimate challenge here would be to multiclass between as many tier 5 and 6 classes as you can and make it work.

Miko from OoTS is kind of an example of this type of character, Paladin/Monk MC. You could throw in a dip of CW Samurai to grab her proficiency with her Daisho and TWF (which is strangely more optimal than burning the feats on it as her in-universe build does, remember, she has no levels in Samurai).

I'd like to do something with Soulknife but I don't own Complete Psionic or Secrets of Sarlona, which I think you'd really need for that one...hmm, I see a trip to half-price books in my future.

Yes, yes, and heck yes!!! If you can multiclass Tier 5 or worse classes to make a viable build, then BY ALL MEANS! I want to see the result!

Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)

Sadly, the Lightning Warrior is beyond all help. Let us mourn his passing, and move on to something we might be able to do something with.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yes, yes, and heck yes!!! If you can multiclass Tier 5 or worse classes to make a viable build, then BY ALL MEANS! I want to see the result!

That sounds a lot like... FISTBEARD BEARDFIST!!!

We'd have to replace Ranger with something that gives the same knowledges, and of course use Drunken Master, so something like

Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So make a list and check it twice.

Figure out who's been naughty or nice.

*wipes soda from screen*

That sounds a lot like... FISTBEARD BEARDFIST!!!

We'd have to replace Ranger with something that gives the same knowledges, and of course use Drunken Master, so something like

Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4

If you can edit, I can edit too! And we have our first submission! Normally, that would be too many levels of PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely considered worthless that I'll let it slide.

[Adumbration]

If you can edit, I can edit too! And we have our first submission! Normally, that would be too many levels of PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely considered worthless that I'll let it slide.

Did you miss my submission, or does it fail to meet some prequisite?

[woodenbandman]

What about prestige classes? Those make everything better. SHould we stick to +0 or worse tier?

I wanted to use Incarnum but it's not ranked on a tier system.

I can probably make a decent Monk/Fighter archer, assuming that Zen Archery allows for wisdom to replace minimum dexterity requirements.

Something like: Fighter4/Monk2/archery stuff here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Did you miss my submission, or does it fail to meet some prequisite?

I missed it, although he places a heavy reliance on a custom magic item which technically shouldn't exist... without that +30 to Truespeak, he wouldn't be nearly as able to pull off those 'cannot fail utterances' in the combat thread.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What about prestige classes? Those make everything better. SHould we stick to +0 or worse tier?

I wanted to use Incarnum but it's not ranked on a tier system.

I can probably make a decent Monk/Fighter archer, assuming that Zen Archery allows for wisdom to replace minimum dexterity requirements.

Something like: Fighter4/Monk2/archery stuff here.

Incarnum are not considered to be Tier 5 or worse. You can use them to augment, but not as a base class.

[Adumbration]

I missed it, although he places a heavy reliance on a custom magic item which technically shouldn't exist... without that +30 to Truespeak, he wouldn't be nearly as able to pull off those 'cannot fail utterances' in the combat thread.

True, but disallowing the item would not completely gimp him - it would merely force him to drop the garnishments. He would still have Truespeak modifier of +55 with the Universal Aptitude, which automatically succeeds on the check to affect a single ally or an enemy of near-equivalent CR. Then, if we wish to chain it or make non-SR, we would have to gamble a bit more. A no-SR, no save Slow on any enemy still wouldn't be unfeasible.

EDIT: And there's always the Item familiar, although I do prefer the custom item.