First 4e character

[raitalin]

So I'm joining my first 4e game as a long time 2-3.5e player and I'm wondering where to start.

Its for and Eberron starting at 11th level. The other party members are a changeling artificier, a changeling warlock and a shadar-kai fighter.

I generally like playing intelligent characters, though not necessarily casters. Factotums were my favorite 3.5 class and I like any sort of clever/tactical warrior. I like having a lot of skills and the ability to use my own resourcefulness and improvisation in the game.

So what am I looking for here in 4e terms?

Also, I have access to all the books and Dragon Compendiums. I don't know the optimization level of the group, but I don't think its extraordinary.

[Kurald Galain]

Its for and Eberron starting at 11th level. The other party members are a changeling artificier, a changeling warlock and a shadar-kai fighter.

Looks like you're short a controller: if you want an intelligent controller, then wizard is the obvious choice, and an excellent character class. For a clever/tactical warrior, I would recommend a swordmage. You can also combine the two, but I would not recommend that for your first character.

I like having a lot of skills and the ability to use my own resourcefulness and improvisation in the game.

If you want a lot of skills, the obvious choice is bard - but the group already has a healer, and heaving a lot of skills doesn't really do anything. Regarding using your own resourcefulness, that depends heavily on the DM, and not at all on your build.

[BobTheDog]

Resourceful warlord might be something you'd like to play, but it's also a healing class (though the warlord is arguably the less "healy" of the leaders)...

[raitalin]

Alright, now I'm looking at a human wizard and...wow, that's a lot of feats to choose from. Any ideas here?

I am diggin' the idea the idea of Alchemy, is it more worthwhile in 4th than 3rd?

[Kurald Galain]

Alright, now I'm looking at a human wizard and...wow, that's a lot of feats to choose from. Any ideas here?

Enlarge Spell is the best wizard feat by a long shot. Weapon Focus (staff) lets you do more damage. Arcane Familiar is a lot of fun. Quickdraw is very useful for utility items (see the guide in my sig). Jack of All Trades is nice if you like skills. A skill power feat is always good, and the right multiclass feat can be very powerful. Superior Implement and Implement Expertise can boost your to-hit if you want. And Focused Mind is a good defense at higher levels.

It is generally not worth it to invest feats in your armor; wizards add int to AC already, and have good defensive utilities like Shield and Wizard's Escape, and can be protected by a decent defender. With the recent sourcebooks, there are many better feats than slightly increasing your armor class.
Also, avoid Expanded Spellbook at all costs: It's A Trap.

I am diggin' the idea the idea of Alchemy, is it more worthwhile in 4th than 3rd?

I'm afraid it's much less effective. Virtually no alchemical items are worth using, especially not for a character with many ranged area attacks (such as, oh say, a wizard). Even if you wanted those items, you can buy them without needing the alchemist feat.

[raitalin]

Also, avoid Expanded Spellbook at all costs: It's A Trap.

Haha, glad you warned me, that looked really good to me. What makes it a trap?

[Kurald Galain]

Haha, glad you warned me, that looked really good to me. What makes it a trap?

Three things.
(1) the feat works only at the start of your day, and you have no feasible way of knowing what you'll be facing that day.
(2) there are very few "situationally effective" spells in 4E, so (except if you pick really bad spells) whichever spells you memorize will come in handy at some point during the day.
(3) on most levels, there aren't enough good (and different enough) wizard daily spells to warrant picking three.

If you want more spells to pick from, buy a set of tomes: these are magical items that let you swap out spells when you need them, instead of at the start of the day. Also, the Tome Of Readiness class feature does something similar.

[tcrudisi]

Follow the link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...zards_Handbook

It will help walk you through what the good choices and bad choices are for a Wizard. Don't feel obligated to take all the best choices though... but definitely read why some choices are good and others bad. It'll help give you an insight into the game.

A wizard is a tough class to do properly. Your job as a Wizard is to control the battlefield. Damage? Not so much. At all. Leave that to others that are more capable. Instead, focus on making your enemies cry at how ineffective they become. If you try to do damage, you lose the ability to really lock down the enemy.

It's also kind of discouraging, as the rest of the table often time does not realize just how much you are doing. But the DM will -- and he will hate you for it (if you are doing your job as a Wizard properly).

[raitalin]

Here's what I've got:

level 11
Gnome, Wizard, Fey Beguiler
Build: Illusionist Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Readiness
Bedazzling Orb: Bedazzling Orb Intelligence
Background: Aundair (City) (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 23 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 21
HP: 66 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Religion +16, Insight +13, History +16, Perception +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +8, Heal +8, Intimidate +6, Nature +8, Stealth +7, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5, Athletics +4

FEATS
Wizard: Alchemist
Level 1: Enlarge Spell
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Gnome Phantasmist
Level 6: Implement Expertise (Tome)
Level 8: Mark of Scribing
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 11: Spell Focus

POWERS
Tome of Readiness: Grasping Shadows
Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath
Wizard daily 1: Grease
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Horrid Whispers
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Arcane Mutterings
Wizard encounter 3: Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
Wizard daily 9: Visions of Ruin
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Mordenkainen's Guardian Hound
Wizard utility 10: Illusory Wall
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Arcane Gate

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Ritual Book, Wailing Tome +1, Leather Armor, Casque of Tactics (heroic tier), Amulet of Physical Resolve +1, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier), Wildrunners (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Comprehend Language, Amanuensis, Unseen Servant, Make Whole, Dowsing Rod, Enchant Magic Item, Familiar Mount, Knock

[Shazbot79]

Here's what I've got:

level 11
Gnome, Wizard, Fey Beguiler
Build: Illusionist Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Readiness
Bedazzling Orb: Bedazzling Orb Intelligence
Background: Aundair (City) (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 23 Fort: 19 Reflex: 22 Will: 21
HP: 66 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Religion +16, Insight +13, History +16, Perception +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +8, Heal +8, Intimidate +6, Nature +8, Stealth +7, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5, Athletics +4

FEATS
Wizard: Alchemist
Level 1: Enlarge Spell
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Gnome Phantasmist
Level 6: Implement Expertise (Tome)
Level 8: Mark of Scribing
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 11: Spell Focus

POWERS
Tome of Readiness: Grasping Shadows
Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath
Wizard daily 1: Grease
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Horrid Whispers
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Arcane Mutterings
Wizard encounter 3: Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
Wizard daily 9: Visions of Ruin
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Mordenkainen's Guardian Hound
Wizard utility 10: Illusory Wall
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Arcane Gate

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Ritual Book, Wailing Tome +1, Leather Armor, Casque of Tactics (heroic tier), Amulet of Physical Resolve +1, Gloves of Piercing (heroic tier), Wildrunners (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Comprehend Language, Amanuensis, Unseen Servant, Make Whole, Dowsing Rod, Enchant Magic Item, Familiar Mount, Knock

Looks all right to me, except that you should have at least +2 magic items by this point. Specifically armor (I suggest shimmering cloth) a neck item and an implement.

[Mando Knight]

(1) the feat works only at the start of your day, and you have no feasible way of knowing what you'll be facing that day.

Well, it depends. As a part of a campaign, you can be pretty sure that when you mount an assault on the Lich Von Stroganoff's Fortress of Inevitable Doom, you'll want things that are effective against undead and constructs. However, if you know that you're also going to fight the Dragon Xryzznaksyz in the summit of Mount Despair and the High (Low?) Priestess Ap'os tra Phee of the Demon-Queen Notl Olth in the darkest depths of the UnderDarkBad soon, you might want to diversify your portfolio a bit.

That just means that the feat is situationally tolerable/useful, not universally good.

[Krazddndfreek]

In addition, according to the player's handbook, "[the alchemy feat] confers no economic benefit". So I don't see why its even ever useful.

[Kurald Galain]

level 11
Gnome, Wizard, Fey Beguiler
Build: Illusionist Wizard

Decent picks overall.

Note that Chilling Cloud does more-or-less the same thing as Winged Horde (except that it can't be enlarged), so you may want to diversify. Thunderwave is excellent, for numerous reasons (such as, throwing people into your own Grasping Shadows, getting your teammates out of grabs, and pushing enemies away if they try to melee you).
Horrid Whispers isn't very good; I'd suggest Sleep or Flaming Sphere. Hypnotic Pattern does more-or-less the same as Visions of Avarice, so I'd suggest Color Spray instead. And the Guardian Hound is pretty mediocre, but you've already got the very nice Illusory Wall anyway.
Did you notice that the Wailing Tome comes with two additionanal teleport or psychic spells?

Well, it depends. As a part of a campaign, you can be pretty sure that when you mount an assault on the Lich Von Stroganoff's Fortress of Inevitable Doom, you'll want things that are effective against undead and constructs.

No, it does not depend. That's because all spells work against undead and constructs. Like I said, if you've selected good powers for your character, then whichever spell you memorize will be useful during that day.

[raitalin]

I took the magic items I could afford with the 5k the Character Builder gave me, is this wrong?

I only took the Alchemist feat because Mark of Scribing gave me ritual casting

I had Thunderwave in there when I was building it as a human, forgot to put it back in when I switched to Gnome.

New power list:
POWERS
Tome of Readiness: Grasping Shadows
Wailing Tome +1: Phantasmal Assailant
Wailing Tome +1: Phantom Chasm
Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard encounter 1: Charm of Misplaced Wrath
Wizard daily 1: Grease
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Flaming Sphere
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Arcane Mutterings
Wizard encounter 3: Color Spray
Wizard daily 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Wall of Fog
Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
Wizard daily 9: Visions of Ruin
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Taunting Phantoms
Wizard utility 10: Illusory Wall
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Arcane Gate

[tcrudisi]

I took the magic items I could afford with the 5k the Character Builder gave me, is this wrong?

Okay, two quick things (and I didn't look at your powers):

1) Gnome Phantasmist and Implement Expertise no longer stack as of the last errata. (edit: they made Implement Expertise a feat bonus. Since Gnome Phantasmist and Implement Expertise are both feat bonuses, they do not stack. However, Gnome Phantasmist does give you a bonus to damage as well.) If you are playing LFR or your DM uses the errata, stick with Gnome Phantasmist and ditch Implement Expertise. If your DM doesn't use the errata, keep both and make yourself an Orb Wizard and break the game. :-P

2) Yes, it's wrong. When you are starting at any level above level 1, you get the following magic items: your level +1, your level, your level -1, and gold equal to a magic item of your level -1. So, in the case of you being level 11 you get the following things: a level 12 magic item, a level 11 magic item, a level 10 magic item, and gold equal to a level 10 magic item. Obviously, it's typically better to buy a few smaller magic items with the gold instead of one big one... but whatever floats your boat. Also, I strongly recommend getting an implement with the level 11 or 12 magic item (so it's +3).

[mackejn]

Honestly something to keep in mind is that it's a lot harder to just out and out break a char in 4e. You can easily make stuff that's sub optimal, but you'd still be able to get by in combat. It's just the nature of the system.

[Sinon]

No, it does not depend. That's because all spells work against undead and constructs. Like I said, if you've selected good powers for your character, then whichever spell you memorize will be useful during that day.

They all work on undead or constructs, but some may work a heck of a lot better.

If the versatility of the wizard's spellbook is of any value, improving that versatility adds to that value. It also works well with items/powers like a mnemonic staff.

I’m not saying it is the greatest feat out there. “Trap” seems a little much though.

[Kurald Galain]

They all work on undead or constructs, but some may work a heck of a lot better.

In theory, yes. In practice? Name me one heroic wizard daily that works better on undead or constructs.

[Sinon]

Glitterdust?

Spells like Stinking Cloud are pretty nice unless what you face is immune to poison. If I knew I were facing undead, I would probably wish I had another choice in addition to Grasp of the Grave.

Rather than have to respond to the predicable “don’t choose those two spells then” with another example, allow me to ask, is the wizard’s ability to choose between two dailies worth anything?

If so, isn’t there greater flexibilty in choosing from three spells than to pick from two?

I don’t mean to say it is the greatest feat or anything. There’s nothing on the OP’s list I’d claim he should give up to take it instead. I just don’t think it is that bad.

[Kurald Galain]

Rather than have to respond to the predicable “don’t choose those two spells then” with another example, allow me to ask, is the wizard’s ability to choose between two dailies worth anything?

Yes. I find its primary appeal is that it makes your character more interesting, because you can do different things today than you did yesterday. This can also throw off your DM because he doesn't know what to expect.

Furthermore, if you somehow obtain the ability to "hot swap" the daily powers (e.g. mnemo staff, and some DMs grant you this as a class ability) then it becomes also practically useful. However, swapping between three spells is only marginally more useful than swapping between two: you have your primary spell, and an alternative for when the first doesn't work. So how likely is it, ever, that neither of them works and you need a third?

Glitterdust?

I'd say that the point of glitterdust is that it blinds stuff, and that it does a little bit more damage against undead is not really a factor.

Spells like Stinking Cloud are pretty nice unless what you face is immune to poison.

True enough. But if a spell doesn't work in one encounter, it generally works in the next. It's not exactly fair if every enemy in every encounter is immune to poison.

I suppose the feat isn't "that bad" in that there are certainly worse feats out there (Astral Fury comes to mind); what I mean by "It's A Trap" is that many first time players think it's one of the greatest feats ever, and that it is decidedly not.

[tcrudisi]

...allow me to ask, is the wizard’s ability to choose between two dailies worth anything?

If so, isn’t there greater flexibilty in choosing from three spells than to pick from two?

I don’t mean to say it is the greatest feat or anything. There’s nothing on the OP’s list I’d claim he should give up to take it instead. I just don’t think it is that bad.

Is it worth something? Hmm... in some circumstances, it could be. But really, if you are 100% effective being able to swap out and only 99% effective by just picking the best daily, there's no reason to add a 3rd spell. Honestly, in all the games I have ran and played in (4e), the spellbook was not important. At all.

So the rare circumstance where it is useful? Would having that 3rd spell really make any difference beyond what one additional spell would? I don't think so. And certainly not as much as what's considered a typically (or ridiculously) bad feat: Skill Training. That's right -- Skill Training is better than Expanded Spellbook. As such, Expanded Spellbook is a trap feat.

[Sinon]

I'd say that the point of glitterdust is that it blinds stuff, and that it does a little bit more damage against undead is not really a factor.

Oh come now. You asked for a spell that does better, and I gave you one. Not only that, I juxtaposed that objectively better spell with some otherwise good spells that would work poorly or not at all against undead and/or constructs.

I really think the appropriate response on your part should’ve been something like, “Oh well, you got me there, but I still disagree” instead suggesting that the status effect is so good that targeting a vulnerability for extra damage doesn’t count as better.

However, swapping between three spells is only marginally more useful than swapping between two: you have your primary spell, and an alternative for when the first doesn't work. So how likely is it, ever, that neither of them works and you need a third?

Well, at least we wrung a “marginally more useful” out of you.

But you are suggesting is that with broader options, the wizard would follow that same strategy.

When your flexibility and versatility get better, you can consider picking spells on a different basis. Instead of looking for a primary spell that almost always works and a back up, I can think about creating a slate of options to choose from, which will allow me to prepare a daily set of spells that might not work in every situation but will really shine in what I expect to face today (target known vulnerabilities/avoid resistance; take advantage of terrain; etc.)

I suppose the feat isn't "that bad" in that there are certainly worse feats out there (Astral Fury comes to mind); what I mean by "It's A Trap" is that many first time players think it's one of the greatest feats ever, and that it is decidedly not.

No, it is certainly not “greatest;” not by a longshot.

Is it worth something? Hmm... in some circumstances, it could be. But really, if you are 100% effective being able to swap out and only 99% effective by just picking the best daily, there's no reason to add a 3rd spell. Honestly, in all the games I have ran and played in (4e), the spellbook was not important. At all.

I’ve noticed that hypothetical statistics have a tendency to support one's propositions exceedingly well. But I will agree that a class feature no one puts much thought into using will typically not have much of an impact.

Our different perspectives hinge on a different definition of the word “best” as in “best daily.”

You (correct me if I’m wrong) define it as the one that works well most often, “99%” of the time.

But from another perspective, the best daily is the one that is better than any other option based on the particular situation, regardless of the fact that it might work poorly in another.

No, you don’t need Expanded Spellbook if you are looking for one spell that will almost always work. (You don’t even need a spellbook if you are looking for only one spell.)

If you want to create options in order to pick one that will be well suited to a particular context? You have to have a spellbook, and the more spells from which you can pick, the better.

[tcrudisi]

I’ve noticed that hypothetical statistics have a tendency to support one's propositions exceedingly well. But I will agree that a class feature no one puts much thought into using will typically not have much of an impact.

Touche. I concede the statistical point.

Our different perspectives hinge on a different definition of the word “best” as in “best daily.”

You (correct me if I’m wrong) define it as the one that works well most often, “99%” of the time.

But from another perspective, the best daily is the one that is better than any other option based on the particular situation, regardless of the fact that it might work poorly in another.

No, you don’t need Expanded Spellbook if you are looking for one spell that will almost always work. (You don’t even need a spellbook if you are looking for only one spell.)

But here's the problem with wizard daily spells: there's almost always 1 option which is the best.

Level 1: Sleep (if you are Orbizard), Flaming Sphere (if you are damage-oriented), Horrid Whispers (illusionist), Wizard's Fury (for those blasters who have Magic Missile). Here's the dilemma for this level: If you are playing an Orb Wizard, you'll always have Sleep memorized. If you're an illusionist, you'll always have Horrid Whispers memorized. If your're a blaster? Well, it will be Flaming Sphere (if you don't have Magic Missile) or Wizard's Fury (if you do).

I can't think of any realistic situation where I'll know what fights are going to occur the next day that would cause me to pick another daily over one of those... when considering the opportunity cost. Oh sure, I might find out that I'm going to find out that we'll be fighting in a volcano against nothing but fire-based creatures, making my Flaming Sphere worthless. No problem, I'll throw in my back-up spell. How often will my back-up be relegated to "crap" status as well? That's how often I'd need the 3rd choice. And then, I'd have to choose that power often enough for it to warrant having Expanded Spellbook over the other feat choices. For instance, over the life of my character, from 1-30, how often will I choose that 3rd option? Compare this to how often I will use Enlarge Spell or even Phantom Echoes.

It's usefulness is just not there compared to most other feats. It looks really good when you first look at it... but if you try to play with it, you'll realize just how little it actually gets used. I'd rather have a feat that will be used every time I play the game rather than one that will rarely come into play (and then when it does come into play, it only gives a small benefit). For example, you mentioned a spell that does 1d6 extra damage against undead, I believe. So if I know I'll be fighting undead tomorrow, I can put it in memory and get 1d6 extra damage on one spell. Or I can take a feat to increase all my spells damage by 1 and come out with the same result over that single combat, plus a lot of extra damage in future combats.

If you want to create options in order to pick one that will be well suited to a particular context? You have to have a spellbook, and the more spells from which you can pick, the better.[/QUOTE]

[Kurald Galain]

Oh come now. You asked for a spell that does better, and I gave you one. Not only that, I juxtaposed that objectively better spell with some otherwise good spells that would work poorly or not at all against undead and/or constructs.

Well, you didn't actually answer the question: we were talking about spells that work better against undead and constructs, and you came up with one spell that does radiant damage.

That's not the same thing: not all undead are vulnerable to radiant, and not everything vulnerable to radiant is undead. For instance, at low levels, chillborn zombies aren't vulnerable to radiant, the flameskull death master negates radiant vulnerability for all nearby undead, and I am not aware of any constructs being vulnerable to radiant at all.

I'm aware of a handful of divine powers that specifically do something nasty to undead, and one L15 wizard daily that explicitly dominates undead only, but with respect to "spells that work better against undead", that's pretty much it, and regarding "spells that work better against constructs" I come up with zero. That does not speak well for the utility of Expanded Spellbook.

[rayne_dragon]

Here's what I've got:

FEATS
Wizard: Alchemist
Level 1: Enlarge Spell
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Gnome Phantasmist
Level 6: Implement Expertise (Tome)
Level 8: Mark of Scribing
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 11: Spell Focus

I'd suggest switching out one of your feats for Phantom Echoes. You get CA with a hit from an illusion power - it's a nice way of getting an extra +2 to hit.

[DragonBaneDM]

Resourceful warlord might be something you'd like to play, but it's also a healing class (though the warlord is arguably the less "healy" of the leaders)...

I think the Runepriest just yoinked that title from them.

[Sinon]

tcrudisi: I acknowledge the validity of what you’re saying. You and Kurald are right from a specific perspective.

But, what if, instead of building a wizard that way, I instead tried to take greater advantage of his unique (or at least very rare) mechanic? Is that of value? If so, doesn't that feat help?

Well, you didn't actually answer the question: we were talking about spells that work better against undead and constructs, and you came up with one spell that does radiant damage.

You didn’t ask for a heroic-tier spell that would be superlative to any other spell up to 25th level and beat all cleric powers to boot. You asked for a heroic wizard spell that was better in a particular context, so…

If you knew you were going to likely face a good number of undead and constructs, would you prepare Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud?

You’d pick the former.

Did you pick Glitterdust because it was more likely to be useful and hence a better choice?

Yes.

And that's the point. Some spells are situationally better. You can pursue a strategy of picking spells that will work in as many situations as possible, or you can use the nearly unique power of the wizard’s spellbook to make selections that will help you tailor your daily repertoire to fit that day’s circumstances.

I realize you prefer the first option. But that doesn’t make the second bad. And, that second option is pursued more easily and more effectively when you have more choices.

I’m sorry if my tone was such that it provoked you to respond, but I’m not going to argue about the definition of the word “better.”