The Promised Neverland: Promises kept and broken (to be edited)

[Dragonus45]

Yea the timeskip feels oddly placed, to much happened to shape the characters and build their relationships that we didn’t get to see.

[ben-zayb]

After having this manga highly recommended to me, I bingeread it until the suggested Chapter 37. No kidding, the first chapter barely took time switching to high gear. I'm instantly hooked, and it only got better from then on.

Probably the biggest strength of Neverland is its interesting premise and plot that isn't your typical shounen fare. While, true, I got a strong Death Note vibe with all the battle of wits, Neverland definitely got a distinct narrative. Arguably the most stereotypical shounen aspect would be the hypercompetency of child characters, which in this case is dialed to 11. It really says something when six to eleven year olds solving spatial logic and linear algebra problems is the most realistic display of their smarts. Not to mention how well even the young ones took the whole truth, and adapted to the final plan. Thankfully, the hypercompetency is more on the cerebral side instead of the typical super strength and super speed in shounen child prodigies. Also, while some actions or twists that the author seem to portray as unexpected or clever really aren't much, I suppose that has more to do with the author's own limitations.

It's strongly hinted that Norman may still end up being alive, which I really hope is the case. He's sort of the Ego to Emma's Id and Ray's Superego, and he's just easily my favorite character so far. It'll be interesting to see possible conflict between Emma and Ray going forward. Being able to save most if not all of the kids is a middle ground to both of their initial plans, but how will their ideologies clash once another scenario pops up wherein leaving some kids behind may be the safest course of action. As for the villains, I like the revelation that even the main Isabella and Krone were simply people trapped in this endless cycle and were just making the best of the cards they were dealt with in life, but upon knowing their fate is sealed sort of just sticked it to demonthe man. They are still evil, perhaps irredeemably so, but at least their characters are fairly humanized.


Lastly, I like how the manga reminds me so much of the alternative character interpretation of old that Peter Pan was the bad guy. Here is a place for children who never grow up, unless you are the mom who will take care of them. It's also reminiscent of A Modest Proposal, especially since these cultured monsters like eating child meat.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

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A pretty good one too. Ray talks Emma down so they can be a bit more sensible about this, and decide to confront Norman about it.

I feel like it has something to do with the flower ritual they do. I know they do the same thing with humans that are harvested...at least from Grace Field, which might be why Grace Field is SO high quality? They "purify" the meat? Just an idea.

Alternatively they eat demons. That's always an option.

[Kato]

Hm.. Well, yes, the story addresses our concerns so we might get answers on that. Let's hope it's not 'magic'.
Early on I assumed the flower thing was something all demons did but yeah, it hasn't been mentioned in a long time. But using a flower to substitute for braaaaaiiins? We'll see.

I still really hope Norman turns into a villain, at this point probably because he is much more genocidal than the other two.

[LaZodiac]

New chapter!

Emma and Ray meet Norman's crazy psycho killer friends, who make it very clear that there is to be no sympathy for devils...but also note that it's probably too late to course correct now. Norman's made contact with what appear to be anarchist's, likely from the same religion as the "peaceful" demons that saved the Gracefield kids before, in order to get assistance in putting an end to this world. So that's a thing.

Overall a good chapter!

[Kato]

I guess it was a decent way to get to know the 'monster children' but it makes me more confident we will never actually learn how they escaped apart from 'Norman did it'.

But I'm curious what is up with the group of probably not suicidal demons. My best guess is simply they are being lied to and believe either they will get just a better new world order or maybe a revoked promise.

[Braininthejar2]

And we're back to Death Note

[LaZodiac]

Mostly just a build up chapter of Norman Is Smart, more hinting at what the *wordswordswords* meal is, and how Norman was intended for it along with Emma and Ray.

The scene where Gleema goes crazy trying to eat the faint traces of Norman from his fingerprint is real good, though. That's desperation.

[Battleship789]

Mostly just a build up chapter of Norman Is Smart, more hinting at what the *wordswordswords* meal is, and how Norman was intended for it along with Emma and Ray.

The scene where Gleema goes crazy trying to eat the faint traces of Norman from his fingerprint is real good, though. That's desperation.

Oh, I got the impression he had signed the contract in blood...

[Braininthejar2]

Dun dun dun intensifies.

[Kato]

Dun dun dun intensifies.

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Ugh, eff you and your stupid coincidences, story. Fine, you had to bring up a special kind of demon because... make things more complicated?
But how tiny is this goddamn demon world if that one "accursed girl" just happened to run into the kids right after they ran away. Clearly they aren't waiting for runaways to eat them. So has Musica her own crazy plan and she knew hanging around there would get that started?!
No, this really annoys me. Gosh. And I know other people don't share my distaste for coincidences in fiction but...

[Braininthejar2]

Now we know why she looked like a Dark Souls character

And coincidences is something that happens in stories all the time. (much worse in Star Wars, where significant characters have a whole galaxy to fly over, and still manage to walk into the same bar within minutes of each other)


Also, it is only by reading TvTropes that I realsied the significance of the head of the Ratri clan being named Peter. Definitely a derp on my part.

[LaZodiac]

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Honestly I'm not big on this either. It'd be way better if it was "that clan" and not "that specific girl right there with the cute face".

It'd also be better if we actually got to learn this **** before it became a twist.

[LaZodiac]

I don't know how to feel about this series.

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The presentation it gives is that the demons are all mostly bad, and deserve to die. But the series is saying that's not true.

But nothing has really shown that at all, I think. I feel like Norman is functionally right here, even if he might not be in truth. Obviously killing Mijuka and her ilk is bad, because destroying the king system is a net positive so having THEM as allies would be good, since any demons you meet that are sympathetic could become them...but there really appears to be no demons we've seen that are GOOD so that feels like a lost cause to me.

[Kato]

I think I said it before but I guess the time skip was in place of an arc showing the kids investigating / hiding among demons, thus giving an opportunity to show them in a more positive light. But we didn't get that, so we're left with Emma kind of making stuff up.
Which is not very compelling.
Of course on the other hand we know demons are sentient, smart, have values and emotions. And even if they have no respect for what amounts to food for them, that is to some degree justification that they have a right to live.
We don't know how demon society might change if they don't need human meat anymore but cynical as I am I feel not all will stop eating delicious kid flesh.

[Frozen_Feet]

Eh, if you follow the comparison to its logical end, humans are mostly bad and deserve to die too. What the demons do to cattle children is nothing special compared to what humans do to other animals and occasionally each other.

[LaZodiac]

Eh, if you follow the comparison to its logical end, humans are mostly bad and deserve to die too. What the demons do to cattle children is nothing special compared to what humans do to other animals and occasionally each other.

Yeah, and that's...I mean that's TRUE. We should be better about it.

[Kato]

Okay, we're getting awfully close to being political here but... while I'm aware it's an arbitrary line but I certainly would stop eating X if it talked to me. And I think many other people would too. Speak and sapience are certainly not synonymous but I feel it's a very distinct line. That's not saying I approve of everyting humans do to non-speaking creatures but I feel most would very quickly change their attitude if species X began talking.

Of course, humans are terrible but we know they can also be great. But so far we don't really know demons can be "good people", short of very minor glimpses and implications.

[Frozen_Feet]

What are you talking about, Jung-zoo and Lewis are great guys.

[Dragonus45]

Eh, if you follow the comparison to its logical end, humans are mostly bad and deserve to die too. What the demons do to cattle children is nothing special compared to what humans do to other animals and occasionally each other.

Hardly, cows are actual literal cattle. They aren’t capable of having much of an opinion about being livestock. They aren’t forming resistance cells and blowing up kill plants or hijacking my truck to gain vengeance for their fallen kin. I’ve yet to notice any hitch hiking or trying to run for it whenever I pick up a load of beef either. The comparison just falls flat for me.

[LaZodiac]

Hardly, cows are actual literal cattle. They aren’t capable of having much of an opinion about being livestock. They aren’t forming resistance cells and blowing up kill plants or hijacking my truck to gain vengeance for their fallen kin. I’ve yet to notice any hitch hiking or trying to run for it whenever I pick up a load of beef either. The comparison just falls flat for me.

The image of the kids in factory farms is identical to factory farming chickens.

You could say what you've said above about basically any animal.

[Dragonus45]

The image of the kids in factory farms is identical to factory farming chickens.

You could say what you've said above about basically any animal.

I get that the series is pushing the idea that them eating people is equivalent to us eating cows and chickens. I just disagree with the assessment, and I also think that genociding the entire demon race is a sad necessity unless they can find a way to let demons stay a species without us. Sometimes you have to scour the earth of something if it’s what it takes for humanity to be safe.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Dragonus45: did my post say anything about what cattle do to us?

No it didn't, because that's not the important part.

But even if it was, your opinion is pretty ignorant of how wild bovines act. You think they don't try to flee or kill their predators? You think they're incapable of revenge? Do go and take a look at the Cape Buffalo . They are considered one of the most dangerous prey animals because they may pursue and attack hunters who've wounded them, humans included, and are known to lynch mob lions in revenge for killing their calves.

Cows aren't naturally cattle, we made them into cattle. Domestication changes how animals act and that is equally true for all the humans we see in Promised Neverland. The kids who lead the resistance? They are free-range, specially bred for intelligence. The factory farm kids by contrast have no intellectual capacity whatsoever and have been rendered unable to act in any capacity. You say you don't see cows do much? Well I don't see the factory farm kids do much either! Must mean eating them is just fine... right?

[Dragonus45]

@Dragonus45: did my post say anything about what cattle do to us?

No it didn't, because that's not the important part.

But even if it was, your opinion is pretty ignorant of how wild bovines act. You think they don't try to flee or kill their predators? You think they're incapable of revenge? Do go and take a look at the Cape Buffalo . They are considered one of the most dangerous prey animals because they may pursue and attack hunters who've wounded them, humans included, and are known to lynch mob lions in revenge for killing their calves.

Cows aren't naturally cattle, we made them into cattle. Domestication changes how animals act and that is equally true for all the humans we see in Promised Neverland. The kids who lead the resistance? They are free-range, specially bred for intelligence. The factory farm kids by contrast have no intellectual capacity whatsoever and have been rendered unable to act in any capacity. You say you don't see cows do much? Well I don't see the factory farm kids do much either! Must mean eating them is just fine... right?

Yea, your not gonna get far comparing non sentient fart factories to actual human beings and trying to say eating them is equivalent. Cows aren’t people. People are people. The Demons eat people. We eat cows. Not complicated.

[Frozen_Feet]

The factory farm kids are "non-sentient fart factories" all the same. They aren't "people" in any relevant way.

[LaZodiac]

Here is a study of cows showing they prefer to be clean, will actively clean themselves if released from captivity in any sense, and how they love using mechanical brushes.

So, you know. Sentient.

[Dragonus45]

The factory farm kids are "non-sentient fart factories" all the same. They aren't "people" in any relevant way.

The difference being they would be if they weren’t tortured into mindlessness. Put some stupid and tasty cows into a classroom like they did for the main characters and you don’t get smart cows, you get cows that are very confused before they inevitably get eaten.

Here is a study of cows showing they prefer to be clean, will actively clean themselves if released from captivity in any sense, and how they love using mechanical brushes.

So, you know. Sentient.

Oh yea, like most animals they like to clean themselves. Clearly this is a sign of real higher intelligence. Quick, get them in school!

[Frozen_Feet]

Put some current cow into school and you get a bit smarter, happier cow compared to the average. Nothing to write home about, that's true.

Put cows in school for generations, picking the smartest ones to breed every time, then get back to me.

Again: cows aren't naturally cattle, we make them into cattle. Do go look at the massive variance in intelligence of dogs, another domesticated species. The dumbest dog breeds are glorified plush toys (some of these were eaten, just so you know) . The smartest dog breeds can understand hundreds of spoken commands and some rare individuals can even read a couple of words.

The factory farm kids aren't just tortured to mindlessness. Even with modern technology, it would be pretty easy to selectively breed a lineage of humans who are intellectual potatos. Or, if growing people in a vat (not currently possible in our world but clearly possible in Promised Neverland), it's fairly easy to chemically sabotage a fetus so that it never grows a functional brain. Such humans are "people" only in the same hypothetical sense as our selectively-bred cows are smart.

[Dragonus45]

Put some current cow into school and you get a bit smarter, happier cow compared to the average. Nothing to write home about, that's true.

Put cows in school for generations, picking the smartest ones to breed every time, then get back to me.

It would likely take like a couple thousand years to get a cow that might be worth considering an equal after a massive amount of intervention from us, the higher better species. And frankly that doesn’t sound like it would be worth the effort, and it’s not the situation at play in the manga. If anything the demons are just parasites leaching intelligence and true self awareness from devouring humanity, and the two species are shown to be perfectly capable of communication as equals. It’s like how the X-men kind of fall apart as a metaphor for oppressed groups when you remember most of them could level a city if they really felt like it. The situations are only superficially similar. I am not a bit curious if a happier smarter cow would taste better now though.

[Braininthejar2]

Loving this discussion.


Back to the story, the whole Melodia thing seems awkward, but in the bigger picture it is required for the protagonist's involvement to be the key factor in the resolution. Without it, Emma would be a spectator of the final arc, her achievements largely irrelevant.