Witch Hunt!

[Unavenger]

I don't see how people can share info otherwise, since anything you tell the judge has to be public. Unless you got confused with a QT you may have in addition to your personal QT?

UNVOTE AvatarVecna
VOTE Unavenger.

"I don't see how people can share info, because any info you share has to be in the big place where everyone shares info." GOOD SHOWING!

I don't even think that "You read the OP, you must be a WITCH!" bears responding to.

I continue to pray that neither of you is the judge and that they are more sensible than either of you.

[gac3]

Once the spy ousts themselves, the witches will vote to sacrifice them and make their next kill unblockable. The witches don't lose a valued member, get a free unblockable kill and the werewolf can no longer be killed.

I doubt both the witches and the werewolf could get the benefits of their death.

[Snowblaze]

Let’s go!

Lynching
DELETE
Lynching

Plan a: vote until a majority is reached
Advantages:
Generates the most information
Forces people to commit to hard stances
Gives us a good shot at getting accurate reads between us

Disadvantages:
Time pressure - there’s a good chance it’ll just turn into “there’s not long until EOD, everyone pile on someone”. I may be slightly biased because time zones, but I don’t think that’s a productive way of hitting scum.
Probability of players being lynch-proof

Plan b: vote as normal, then judge executes whoever has most votes
Advantages:
Has the benefits of normal lynching, without the disadvantages
Disadvantages:
Judge may not agree
What if the judge has the most votes?

Plan c: no lynch, judge chooses whoever they want
Advantages: can still kill lynchproof scum
Disadvantages: judge’s reads could be less accurate than the player base as a whole
No accountability without vote pressure

I personally think something along the lines of “vote as normal, and if no majority is reached the judge should choose between the two or three highest in votes to execute” works well. I’d like to propose that as plan d, and the one I support. Thoughts?

- - - Updated - - -

...ah, I copy-pasted badly and I can’t edit posts *sob*

[rogue_alchemist]

We do not have a necromancer nor a medium, so NO ONE gets to know the identify of those who have died. It means that no one has to worry about being ousted for knowing too much, but also means we have no way to confirm if our target was in fact town or not after a lynch. This makes it double blind to start killing people as we have no way to verify who we can trust without public information that potentially targets the person who releases the info as only the priest will really know who is good or evil with their ability.

[Snowblaze]

We do not have a necromancer nor a medium, so NO ONE gets to know the identify of those who have died. It means that no one has to worry about being ousted for knowing too much, but also means we have no way to confirm if our target was in fact town or not after a lynch. This makes it double blind to start killing people as we have no way to verify who we can trust without public information that potentially targets the person who releases the info as only the priest will really know who is good or evil with their ability.

Valid point. What do you suggest we do about it? We can’t just refuse to kill or lynch anyone and let the witches kill us all.

[rogue_alchemist]

That reminds me: @Aventine, can the werewolf be nightkilled by the witches?

- - - Updated - - -

Also I think we do actually need to talk about mechanics this game, reluctant though I normally am to support that. I’ll see if I can find a few things.

\

Werewolves can only be killed with the unblockable kill by the witches.

I doubt both the witches and the werewolf could get the benefits of their death.

I didn't mean that the werewolf counts as having devoured and thus being immune, I meant that the witches have to sacrifice to kill the werewolf, so it is safe until the spy is ousted or they decide to sacrifice another person (though I don't know why they would without reasonable suspicion about who the spy was).

- - - Updated - - -

Valid point. What do you suggest we do about it? We can’t just refuse to kill or lynch anyone and let the witches kill us all.

No I am not suggesting that at all, just pointing it out so people will factor it into their plans. I am all for everyone vote and then the judge decide between the top 2-3, it leaves anonymity as an option, people can share info and it gives a lot of analysis of people changing votes.

The only thing that sucks about that plan is waiting the full 72 hours every time for day to end.

[Snowblaze]

There’s nothing wrong with having more time, unless you’re impatient.

Where did it say that the werewolf can only die to an unblockable witchkill? Did I miss that in my maybe-not-quite-as-thorough-as-it-should-have-been read of the setup?

[Valmark]

Ah that's a good point. I also could be the spy and the Junior Witch (it's junior witch right? Why jc?) And I'm trying to act like a JW who isn't the spy and slipped up so the witches think I'm not the spy.

That said, I'm neither the Junior witch more the spy. Though honestly, does the spy have much to lose from outing themselves? Probably the werewolf issue I bet. I think I saw mention of that in the recruitment thread.

Uh sorry, yeah, JW. If the Spy outs themselves the witches will kill them easy, and if the Spy denounces the witches and we start killing them we lose our only real weapon against the Werewolf.

That reminds me: @Aventine, can the werewolf be nightkilled by the witches?

Witches can kill the werewolf, the Vengeful Bastard can, or through killing the Werewolf Lover if the Enchantress picked the Werewolf as one of the lovers.

Though if the werewolf devours somebody successfully I think nothing can touch them besides the unblockable kill.

"I don't see how people can share info, because any info you share has to be in the big place where everyone shares info." GOOD SHOWING!

I don't even think that "You read the OP, you must be a WITCH!" bears responding to.

I continue to pray that neither of you is the judge and that they are more sensible than either of you.

You said that any info people have they can give it anyway. Thing is, unless we discuss stuff here, the only info people can give is from their private stuff that might out their role giving the Werewolf free reign.

And... I never said that so yeah, no point in replying to it.

Mh, usually when Unavenger overreacts they are Town if I recall correctly. Not that I have better picks.

[Bunny of Faith]

Werewolves can only be killed with the unblockable kill by the witches.

I didn't mean that the werewolf counts as having devoured and thus being immune, I meant that the witches have to sacrifice to kill the werewolf, so it is safe until the spy is ousted or they decide to sacrifice another person (though I don't know why they would without reasonable suspicion about who the spy was).

The Werewolf

Spoiler

Show

Werewolf

You are the werewolf. You win if all the witches and villagers are dead, or if it is no longer logically possible for you to lose.

You cannot be lynched., though you can be killed by the vengeful bastard or by having your lover lynched (if you have one).

You may attempt to devour another player once per day. If you correctly identify their role, they are immediately killed and you are immune to all kills until the next day. Regardless of whether the attempt is successful, it will be publically revealed and your role will be exposed.

The spy cannot be devoured.

Personal QT: LINK

Can't be lynched, that doesn't make them immune to the witch NK? Only if they successfully devour somebody, at which point the witches can sacrifice to get through it. It also says in the role that the Vengeful Bastard can take them down, and if they have a lover then lynching them kills the Werewolf.

[Valmark]

\

Werewolves can only be killed with the unblockable kill by the witches.



I didn't mean that the werewolf counts as having devoured and thus being immune, I meant that the witches have to sacrifice to kill the werewolf, so it is safe until the spy is ousted or they decide to sacrifice another person (though I don't know why they would without reasonable suspicion about who the spy was).

The only thing that sucks about that plan is waiting the full 72 hours every time for day to end.

That about the Werewolf is untrue. They are immune to lynching, not death itself unless they devour a player succesfully.

Dunno about time, let's see: longer day time may mean more information.

Where did it say that the werewolf can only die to an unblockable witchkill? Did I miss that in my maybe-not-quite-as-thorough-as-it-should-have-been read of the setup?

It's not written anywhere. Unless they devour, again.

[Elenna]

I don't even think that "You read the OP, you must be a WITCH!" bears responding to.

That's not... okay, yeah, that is basically what I said at first, but that's no longer the reasoning for my vote on you
That being said, I do see where Unavenger is coming from (although I still don't support everyone voting No Lynch), and I didn't really like that vote all that much, so I think I'll switch to UNVOTE; Vote JeenLeen for some pressure and another two-person wagon. JeenLeen, you around? Got anything to say?

I personally think something along the lines of “vote as normal, and if no majority is reached the judge should choose between the two or three highest in votes to execute” works well. I’d like to propose that as plan d, and the one I support. Thoughts?

I'm down for this.

I didn't mean that the werewolf counts as having devoured and thus being immune, I meant that the witches have to sacrifice to kill the werewolf, so it is safe until the spy is ousted or they decide to sacrifice another person (though I don't know why they would without reasonable suspicion about who the spy was).

Wait, where does it say that the werewolf can only be killed by a sacrifice? I thought that was only true if the werewolf had devoured the day before? Am I just missing something again?

- - - Updated - - -

lol ninja'd by two different people on that last point

[rogue_alchemist]

Wait, where does it say that the werewolf can only be killed by a sacrifice? I thought that was only true if the werewolf had devoured the day before? Am I just missing something again?

That about the Werewolf is untrue. They are immune to lynching, not death itself unless they devour a player succesfully.

Can't be lynched, that doesn't make them immune to the witch NK? Only if they successfully devour somebody, at which point the witches can sacrifice to get through it. It also says in the role that the Vengeful Bastard can take them down, and if they have a lover then lynching them kills the Werewolf.

Where did it say that the werewolf can only die to an unblockable witchkill? Did I miss that in my maybe-not-quite-as-thorough-as-it-should-have-been read of the setup?

I guess I misunderstood the discussion around that in the recruitment thread. My bad. So they can't be lynched, but otherwise are killable, unless they devour successfully. The enchantress is another unkillable except by killing the lovers first, except by the judge. What other roles are unkillable except in special circumstance?

[Valmark]

I guess I misunderstood the discussion around that in the recruitment thread. My bad. So they can't be lynched, but otherwise are killable, unless they devour successfully. The enchantress is another unkillable except by killing the lovers first, except by the judge. What other roles are unkillable except in special circumstance?

The traveler can't be killed by the witches (unless unblockable), survivalist has a one time protection and warlock has a one time protection specific to lynches. And the spy can't be devoured. I think that's it?

[JeenLeen]

Real life was hectic today, and I haven't fully read through everyone's posts enough to do analysis on them. Except for one thing: someone said we know the Lovers are in the game. How do we know that? Aventine mentioned that as a reason to delay game start, but I don't take that as proof the Lovers exist for sure.
Also, if the Lovers exist, they should try to keep it quiet. Right now, the witches don't know if the Enchantress is the spy or not. If a Lover flips Lover, then the witches know they can trust the Enchantress. We don't want to give them that clarification.

Well, one other thing: it seems a bit iffy to me that Elenna missed the roles were confirmed, but believable enough AND more egregious D1 goofs happened in a prior game when she was Town. So doesn't confirm her as Town by any means, but no reason to strongly suspect her.

---

Here's a post I wrote up yesterday. I don't think anything said thus far invalidates it or makes me not want to post it. Some of it is redundant, some isn't, but I don't see a good reason to go through and edit it now.
Though I am changing my vote.

There are 13 players, so (if my math is right, e.g., 13/2=6.5), then 7 votes are needed for a lynch. Aventine, could you confirm this?

I see we are told which roles made it into the game. Seems pro-Town as it give us info only the witches would normally have, that is, which witch roles are active, and prevents safe witch fake-claims. On the other hand, it also helps the werewolf as there's no chance they guess a role that's not in the game.
There's no Necromancer or Medium, which is interesting as it intensifies the ignorance about who dies and what Roles are left. That is probably overall neutral to witches and town and bad for werewolf.

Some stuff we can learn based on deaths
If someone survives a lynch, they are the Survivalist, Warlock, Enchantress (with Lovers alive), or Werewolf.
Based on that, if someone survives a lynch, there's a 1/4 chance it's a baddie.

If 2+ people die in a night, we know the witches sacrificed someone AND/OR the Vengeful Bastard got NKed by the witches and took someone with them.

Did I miss anyone with lynch immunity?
Do any of you see another way a night-death could happen?

Aventine, if the Judge uses their power, the death is declared at end-of-night (even though the person was technically dead at end-of-day, right?)
Would it be publicly revealed that it's a judge-lynch and not a NK?
In other words, would a judge-lynch look like a NK to us?

It seems odd to trust the Judge and not vote for D1, even though Unavenger's reasoning is, well, reasonable. But I'll take that as enough D1 minor evidence to think they might be a witch trying to limit town info.
So Unavenger.

[Xihirli]

There’s nothing wrong with having more time, unless you’re impatient.

Where did it say that the werewolf can only die to an unblockable witchkill? Did I miss that in my maybe-not-quite-as-thorough-as-it-should-have-been read of the setup?

I am impatient.

And illiterate.

Yarr, I be so illiterate, I do not even have the cultural understanding to make a colorful expression detailing my failing.

[Unavenger]

It seems odd to trust the Judge and not vote for D1, even though Unavenger's reasoning is, well, reasonable. But I'll take that as enough D1 minor evidence to think they might be a witch trying to limit town info.
So Unavenger.

My reasoning makes 100% sense for a townie (and no sense for a witch) but is still suspicious? What? Are you HIGH?

Vote NL and let someone who's actually definitely town decide, for heaven's sake.

[Valmark]

My reasoning makes 100% sense for a townie (and no sense for a witch) but is still suspicious? What? Are you HIGH?

Vote NL and let someone who's actually definitely town decide, for heaven's sake.

Except all the ones that decided to comment on that reasoning are in disagreement with you. There is no need to be so aggressive, unless you're trying to piss people off or intimidate them for... I dunno.

Though we are three in disagreement, so we tecnically could be all the witches I guess.

[rogue_alchemist]

Real life was hectic today, and I haven't fully read through everyone's posts enough to do analysis on them. Except for one thing: someone said we know the Lovers are in the game. How do we know that? Aventine mentioned that as a reason to delay game start, but I don't take that as proof the Lovers exist for sure.
Also, if the Lovers exist, they should try to keep it quiet. Right now, the witches don't know if the Enchantress is the spy or not. If a Lover flips Lover, then the witches know they can trust the Enchantress. We don't want to give them that clarification.

Well, one other thing: it seems a bit iffy to me that Elenna missed the roles were confirmed, but believable enough AND more egregious D1 goofs happened in a prior game when she was Town. So doesn't confirm her as Town by any means, but no reason to strongly suspect her.

---

Here's a post I wrote up yesterday. I don't think anything said thus far invalidates it or makes me not want to post it. Some of it is redundant, some isn't, but I don't see a good reason to go through and edit it now.
Though I am changing my vote.

There are 13 players, so (if my math is right, e.g., 13/2=6.5), then 7 votes are needed for a lynch. Aventine, could you confirm this?

I see we are told which roles made it into the game. Seems pro-Town as it give us info only the witches would normally have, that is, which witch roles are active, and prevents safe witch fake-claims. On the other hand, it also helps the werewolf as there's no chance they guess a role that's not in the game.
There's no Necromancer or Medium, which is interesting as it intensifies the ignorance about who dies and what Roles are left. That is probably overall neutral to witches and town and bad for werewolf.

Some stuff we can learn based on deaths
If someone survives a lynch, they are the Survivalist, Warlock, Enchantress (with Lovers alive), or Werewolf.
Based on that, if someone survives a lynch, there's a 1/4 chance it's a baddie.

If 2+ people die in a night, we know the witches sacrificed someone AND/OR the Vengeful Bastard got NKed by the witches and took someone with them.

Did I miss anyone with lynch immunity?
Do any of you see another way a night-death could happen?

Aventine, if the Judge uses their power, the death is declared at end-of-night (even though the person was technically dead at end-of-day, right?)
Would it be publicly revealed that it's a judge-lynch and not a NK?
In other words, would a judge-lynch look like a NK to us?

It seems odd to trust the Judge and not vote for D1, even though Unavenger's reasoning is, well, reasonable. But I'll take that as enough D1 minor evidence to think they might be a witch trying to limit town info.
So Unavenger.

So the werewolf also has a chance to guess a role and successfully devour someone that could be a NK.

[Unavenger]

Except all the ones that decided to comment on that reasoning are in disagreement with you..

What, you mean apart from the person who JUST SAID IT WAS REASONABLE?

I'm being "Aggressive" because everyone who's talking about this is saying something hilariously wrong, and you keep on pretending like no-one said the things they did (like "This is reasonable" or "You're a witch because you read the OP" - spoiler alert, when I mentioned that one, I was not in fact implying that you were the one who said it) and that people said things that they didn't (Apparently, "We are allowed to talk about things because there is a thread" means "I have a faction QT"?).

Just... gah. I still don't see how letting a townie decide is a bad idea.

[Valmark]

So the werewolf also has a chance to guess a role and successfully devour someone that could be a NK.

You mean one that could be night killed? Because the werewolf's is a Day power.

Though they could devour a witch, yes, if that's what you meant?

There is to say that the Werewolf will be outed if they try to devour someone. I don't think we'll see them for multiple phases.

What, you mean apart from the person who JUST SAID IT WAS REASONABLE?

I'm being "Aggressive" because everyone who's talking about this is saying something hilariously wrong, and you keep on pretending like no-one said the things they did (like "This is reasonable" or "You're a witch because you read the OP" - spoiler alert, when I mentioned that one, I was not in fact implying that you were the one who said it) and that people said things that they didn't (Apparently, "We are allowed to talk about things because there is a thread" means "I have a faction QT"?).

Just... gah. I still don't see how letting a townie decide is a bad idea.

Expect Jeen clearly said that while reasonable they find it odd, which is reason to vote you.

And if you read Elenna asked you why you knew the roles, not that you are a witch because you red the OP- in fact, her reason to vote for you is not tied to that.

And I've already explained how I came to that conclusion, so could you please not single out two sentences while completely ignoring all the rest of the post? It's pointless to get angry if you don't read correctly the posts.

And no, it's not wrong to leave the kill to the judge- but if we all just go No Lynch, then the judge will have zero to go on and will have to shoot blind. Well, blinder. There is virtually no difference between voting No Lynch and not reaching the majority, except that the latter means talking.

Take yourself for example, if people ignored you or just said "Mh yeah" it would be pointless if not even anti-town.
With a discussion those on the sidelines can judge us and ferret out the witches. Of course, when one starts acting like this it gets harder to evaluate correctly.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Sup everyone

Internet access might be spotty for me for a couple of days cause a storm knocked out a bunch of lines and data is overworked.

I'll come back and drop a bunch of mechanics thoughts in the threads later.

Probably the same storm that hit me. Hope you get your power back soon.

Plan b: vote as normal, then judge executes whoever has most votes
Advantages:
Has the benefits of normal lynching, without the disadvantages
Disadvantages:
Judge may not agree
What if the judge has the most votes?

Plan c: no lynch, judge chooses whoever they want
Advantages: can still kill lynchproof scum
Disadvantages: judge’s reads could be less accurate than the player base as a whole
No accountability without vote pressure

I personally think something along the lines of “vote as normal, and if no majority is reached the judge should choose between the two or three highest in votes to execute” works well. I’d like to propose that as plan d, and the one I support. Thoughts?

I'm OK for plan D as a Day 1, but we can't assume the judge is around Day 2 onward. If the witches kill the Judge, we can't rely on that kill anymore. But we won't know if/when the judge died.

Plan B is basically the same as Plan D. Honestly if Judge has the most votes but isn't lynched, that saves town from a mislynch as Judge won't kill themselves.

I don't like plan C at all, but I'll hopefully trust that the Judge makes decisions with the town in mind.

Some stuff we can learn based on deaths
If someone survives a lynch, they are the Survivalst, Warlock, Enchantress (with Lovers alive), or Werewolf.
Based on that, if someone survives a lynch, there's a 1/4 chance it's a baddie.

If 2+ people die in a night, we know the witches sacrificed someone AND/OR the Vengeful Bastard got NKed by the witches and took someone with them.

Did I miss anyone with lynch immunity?
Do any of you see another way a night-death could happen?

Survivalst, Warlock, Enchantress, Werewolf all could survive a lynch. However, the chances of them being evil aren't 1/4. There's at least 2/4 chance they're bad (Werewolf or Warlock/Enchantress), 1/4 chance they're good (Survivalst), or 1/4 chance we don't know (Warlock/Enchantress could be the Spy).

I think you are correct about the number of people dying in a night - the only other "night kill" there might be is the judge, but we would be aware that no lynch happened the day before.

---

So, I think we also need to talk about claiming if you're going to be lynched? If someone is about to be lynched, claiming could save you from the town but also gives the Werewolf a likely kill. Won't be as much of a problem early game, if Werewolf cannot chain their kills and becomes exposed and vulnerable the next day. But enough claims and we've given the game to them (unless Withces use a superkill?). If someone does claim, should another player counterclaim when there's no way to prove either of them right?

On a riskier side, do we want the Werewolf to out themselves early so that the Witches sacrifice one of their own and take out the Werewolf for us?

---

Vote Count (7 to Lynch)

Unavenger (2): Valmark, JeenLeen
Snowblaze (1): AvatarVecna
Valmark (2): Xihirli, Bunny of Faith
AvatarVecna (1): Snowblaze
CaoimhinTheCape (1): gac3
JeenLeen (2): rogue_alchemist, Elenna
No Lynch (1): Unavenger
No Vote: CaoimhinTheCape


No Posts: Apogee1, JonnyPatches

[JeenLeen]

Valmark summarized things well, but to clarify my opinion and to Unavenger's credit, I do think their position is a reasonable one for a townie to hold. It's just that it's also a reasonable position for the witches to hold, in order to limit the Town from gathering intel.

Survivalst, Warlock, Enchantress, Werewolf all could survive a lynch. However, the chances of them being evil aren't 1/4. There's at least 2/4 chance they're bad (Werewolf or Warlock/Enchantress), 1/4 chance they're good (Survivalst), or 1/4 chance we don't know (Warlock/Enchantress could be the Spy).

I think you are correct about the number of people dying in a night - the only other "night kill" there might be is the judge, but we would be aware that no lynch happened the day before.

That was a typo. I mean to write 3/4 chance they're a baddie.
And I think the Spy doesn't factor in, since the Spy wouldn't have the Warlock or Enchantress's power. (Only the Junior Witch retains their power if they are the Spy.) If an Enchantress or Warlock die to a lynch (or at least a non-Judge lynch), then they weren't the Spy.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

And I think the Spy doesn't factor in, since the Spy wouldn't have the Warlock or Enchantress's power. (Only the Junior Witch retains their power if they are the Spy.) If an Enchantress or Warlock die to a lynch (or at least a non-Judge lynch), then they weren't the Spy.

Oh, that's true. So it is really a 3/4 chance of being bad, or 2/3 if Warlock/Enchantress is spy and not included (though, we wouldn't know if Spy is one of those).

[Xihirli]

Except all the ones that decided to comment on that reasoning are in disagreement with you. There is no need to be so aggressive, unless you're trying to piss people off or intimidate them for... I dunno.

Though we are three in disagreement, so we tecnically could be all the witches I guess.

I am not on the same side as Valmark! We are so distant, nobody could ever mistake us for being on the same team.

[JeenLeen]

So, I think we also need to talk about claiming if you're going to be lynched? If someone is about to be lynched, claiming could save you from the town but also gives the Werewolf a likely kill. Won't be as much of a problem early game, if Werewolf cannot chain their kills and becomes exposed and vulnerable the next day. But enough claims and we've given the game to them (unless Withces use a superkill?). If someone does claim, should another player counterclaim when there's no way to prove either of them right?

On a riskier side, do we want the Werewolf to out themselves early so that the Witches sacrifice one of their own and take out the Werewolf for us?

To your counterclaim question: the big riddle of this is that we can't openly answer it as a group, lest we give away the answer to the werewolf. But I definitely see the potential merit of that sort of misinformation. On the other hand, it potentially makes fake-claiming safe for the witches, which is bad for Town. Not sure if it's overall be better for Town or not (though I probably wouldn't say even if I could tell, lest I give too much away to the werewolf to help it interpret if I claim.)

On when the Town wants the werewolf named... I think a werewolf being outted early on a failed devour is definitely in our favor. We and the witches would know who it is, and it's vulnerable to witches or Vengeful Bastard (VB). We know the VB is currently alive, but once a night has 2 or more kills, we can't be certain about that anymore. A living VB is basically a "kill the werewolf for free if you get killed", as long as the werewolf fails to devour.

But not sure about if it gets it right, or even has a counter-claimant and thus is likely to get it right if it survives until the next Day. The witches might decide it's worth the risk to let it live until the next Day, in hopes of it killing townies before it kills witches. We will probably need the witches to kill it for us (barring luck with the VB), but we can't count on them killing it immediately.

So... I don't really have a solid answer to that question, but those are my thoughts on it.

[Aventine]

There are 13 players, so (if my math is right, e.g., 13/2=6.5), then 7 votes are needed for a lynch. Aventine, could you confirm this?

Day One Begins!
There are 13 living players: the day will end once a majority of 7 votes is reached or after 72 hours
(Sorry for the delay, feel free to kill each other now)

---

Aventine, if the Judge uses their power, the death is declared at end-of-night (even though the person was technically dead at end-of-day, right?)
Would it be publicly revealed that it's a judge-lynch and not a NK?
In other words, would a judge-lynch look like a NK to us?

I will distinguish a Judge kill from Night Kill(s).

---

Explanation of How to Die:

Lover kills the other lover if they are lynched (including Judge) and actually die. An NK does not kill the other lover, nor does a lynch that fails for whatever reason.

Warlock survives the first time they are lynched (including Judge). Otherwise dies normally to a kill.

Enchantress cannot be normal lynched (but can be Judge killed) so long as both lovers are alive. Otherwise dies normally to a kill.

Traveler cannot be killed by a normal NK. Can be killed by an unblockable NK or any other way of dying.

Survivalist has absolute immunity to their first death. Nothing can kill them the first time, but after that they die normally. (Note that the Werewolf still gains immunity from devouring a Survivalist that survives the devour)

Werewolf cannot be lynched (including Judge). Can die to any other death, such as the NKs, the Vengeful Bastard, or a lover getting lynched. Devour immunity is absolute, not even an unblockable kill (from the Vengeful Bastard or a powered-up NK) can kill them while they are under devour protection.

[Unavenger]

That is... a lot different from how I was expecting "Unblockable" and "Will be considered to have died to a lynch" to work. I don't think it matters - the judge kill is still strictly better than a lynch, and no-one's had a chance to do anything to make a kill unblockable yet - but that could have been made a lot clearer. I initially assumed unblockable meant unblockable, rather than unblockable unless there's a full moon or you're trying to gank a prepper, and I was sorta counting on the assumption that the judge kill didn't count as a lynch until after it had succeeded.

[Elenna]

Going to [COLOR="#FF0000"]UNVOTE[COLOR] since JeenLeen is talking. Unless I'm forgetting something, none of the wagons except Unavenger's have reasoning behind them? Hmm... AV hasn't posted since their initial RNG vote. AvatarVecna, got any thoughts on the current discussions?

What, you mean apart from the person who JUST SAID IT WAS REASONABLE?

I'm being "Aggressive" because everyone who's talking about this is saying something hilariously wrong, and you keep on pretending like no-one said the things they did (like "This is reasonable" or "You're a witch because you read the OP" - spoiler alert, when I mentioned that one, I was not in fact implying that you were the one who said it) and that people said things that they didn't (Apparently, "We are allowed to talk about things because there is a thread" means "I have a faction QT"?).

Just... gah. I still don't see how letting a townie decide is a bad idea.

You do realize that a) it was Valmark who pointed out to me that the roles were in the OP in the first place, so he's hardly ignoring that comment, and b) I already acknowledged that it was a mistake, right?

And you still haven't mentioned why you're against having a normal discussion (which will probably not end in someone having a majority, especially not D1, and in any case we can be careful to avoid hitting the lynch threshold on anyone) and then letting the judge decide based on that.

Plan B is basically the same as Plan D. Honestly if Judge has the most votes but isn't lynched, that saves town from a mislynch as Judge won't kill themselves.

Yes, but the difference is that if we establish "judge always lynches the person with the most votes" and then one day they suddenly lynch the person with the second-most votes instead, they're basically telling the werewolf that they were the person with the most votes.

So, I think we also need to talk about claiming if you're going to be lynched? If someone is about to be lynched, claiming could save you from the town but also gives the Werewolf a likely kill. Won't be as much of a problem early game, if Werewolf cannot chain their kills and becomes exposed and vulnerable the next day. But enough claims and we've given the game to them (unless Withces use a superkill?). If someone does claim, should another player counterclaim when there's no way to prove either of them right?

On a riskier side, do we want the Werewolf to out themselves early so that the Witches sacrifice one of their own and take out the Werewolf for us?

It's worth noting that basically none of the town roles can be proven. Well, I guess the Acolyte can sort of prove themselves by outing the Priest, if they're still alive, but that's pretty obviously a bad idea. And I guess the Martyr could prove themselves by dying, but that seems rather counterproductive.
Also, there's no doctor, so anyone who claims can only be saved once by the Martyr (if they're alive)
Beyond that... idk, I basically agree with what Caoimhin said. Probably people should decide individually, based on how important their power is and how many claims have already happened.

- - - Updated - - -

Whoops, screwed up the colouring on that unvote. For clarity, I'll just do UNVOTE; Vote AvatarVecna again.

[Unavenger]

And you still haven't mentioned why you're against having a normal discussion (which will probably not end in someone having a majority, especially not D1, and in any case we can be careful to avoid hitting the lynch threshold on anyone) and then letting the judge decide based on that.

Which is probably because I haven't mentioned that I'm against a normal discussion either. I can still say I find, say, Val's whole death tunneling schtick suspicious while not actually voting for him.

[Valmark]

Which is probably because I haven't mentioned that I'm against a normal discussion either. I can still say I find, say, Val's whole death tunneling schtick suspicious while not actually voting for him.

Yes, but if I hadn't engaged you we'd not be arguing about it in the first place. And I wouldn't call death tunneling mainly correcting you, though your behavior after even a single vote surely didn't give me a good impression. I'd be sure of my vote if it was the first time.