Enderlord's Random Banter #230 (Friendly warning: Might teleport. Don't get wet.)

[Peelee]

You mean exercise in... Lingoirritoturgy...?

That is absolutely what I meant and I am shamed for missing it myself.

[Lord Raziere]

So, a necromancer would be someone who summons dead to ask them questions; necroturgy/necrothurgy would be the guy who actually creates undead...?

If we're using original definitions, yes. But again coolness factor of -mancy being used so much and languages changing, its all about popularity power, -mancy pretty much means a school of magic in general now. going back to -urgy might just be needlessly pedantic or different for the sake of difference now. its not as if anyone cares what magic is called otherwise, so you might as well make it sound cool.

[Fyraltari]

Poor "-urgy" suffix. your are the more accurate usage, but everyone has forgotten you aside from metallurgy.

though it might be just because "pyroturgy" just doesn't have the same ring as "pyromancy" now does it? sometimes it truly seems human languages runs on whatever sounds cooler.

There's thaumaturgy (miracle-maker). I really wish to see a fantasy story one day where a wizard says they can't do something with "Well, I'm not a thaumaturgist!"

As if English hadn't completely mishmashed Greek and Latin before. There's an argument to be made that the entire thing is just an exercise in being offensive to linguistic purists that got out of hand after people mistook it for a serious language.

You can kick your bad habits! I believe in you!

So, a necromancer would be someone who summons dead to ask them questions; necroturgy/necrothurgy would be the guy who actually creates undead...?

Makes sense.

You mean exercise in... Lingoirritoturgy...?

Love it.

[Peelee]

If we're using original definitions, yes. But again coolness factor of -mancy being used so much and languages changing, its all about popularity power, -mancy pretty much means a school of magic in general now. going back to -urgy might just be needlessly pedantic or different for the sake of difference now. its not as if anyone cares what magic is called otherwise, so you might as well make it sound cool.

As an expert in cooloturgy, I find no reason to keep using -mancy.

You can kick your bad habits! I believe in you!

Well, I'm not a thaumaturgist!

[Form]

But the suffix -mancy also comes from ancient Greek for "divination".

Well, I'd say that's the answer then. Phytomancer. Or replace -mancy as well.

[Lacco]

If we're using original definitions, yes. But again coolness factor of -mancy being used so much and languages changing, its all about popularity power, -mancy pretty much means a school of magic in general now. going back to -urgy might just be needlessly pedantic or different for the sake of difference now. its not as if anyone cares what magic is called otherwise, so you might as well make it sound cool.

Interestingly, Blade of the Iron Throne uses Necromancy as the discipline for talking to spirits/dead. You however need an advanced magic to actually make an undead.

I could then see Necrothurgy as valid school. Valid, not strictly legal.

There's thaumaturgy (miracle-maker). I really wish to see a fantasy story one day where a wizard says they can't do something with "Well, I'm not a thaumaturgist!"

"I just work here, he's off to lunch!"

As an expert in cooloturgy, I find no reason to keep using -mancy.

Co-olo-turgy would be then the school of... making diminuitives in cooperation with someone?

Well, I'm not a thaumaturgist!

Belief should be "fides", so maybe in this case you should have used "Fidoturgist"...?

Although that could be easily mistaken for magic school that creates small white dogs with bad attitude...

EDIT: looked after it. Habitocalcitrarturge!

[Peelee]

Well, I'd say that's the answer then. Phytomancer. Or replace -mancy as well.

Bringing logic to English only makes one ill-prepared.

[Fyraltari]

Bringing logic to English only makes one ill-prepared.

The genre is called fantasy, it's meant to be unrealistic.

[Rater202]

Does anyone else sometimes wish that they could levitate so that you don't have to walk places?

[Peelee]

Does anyone else sometimes wish that they could levitate so that you don't have to walk places?

I wish I could fly, sure, but I'm also fat and should walk more regardless.

On a barely tangential note, I think the best parking at stores is close to the cart return, so it's super quick to put it up when I finish pushing the car and am ready to leave. I don't care about walking through the parking lot to get into or out of the store itself

[Tvtyrant]

Does anyone else sometimes wish that they could levitate so that you don't have to walk places?

No, I love walking too much. Plus I watched Dune as a kid and later Wall-E so I know how that is going to go.

I do shake my fist at birds though.

[LaZodiac]

Maybe consistency is more important. If you go with Phytomancer, that implies the naming convention is based on the Greek language, so the other -mancies would follow suit. And if you go with Fyto, the naming convention would be English. Though certain mancies could deviate from that convention if they are particular to a certain culture or nation or if they were invented later when a different language was dominant. What group/nation/culture names them and what convention would they use?

To answer this question; mancers in my novels setting aren't set in any one group/nation/culture, it's a thing people can just do (think sorcery style magic, where it is inbuilt instead of studied). There's pyromancy, ferromancy, and sanguimancy (blood, sanguine) and also shadowmancy. So there's already some minor hiccups in keeping it fully consistently named. Not that that's a bad thing, but still.

[Rater202]

Can I say I'm looking forward to how plant users are depicted in your works, Zodi??

[factotum]

But why call them sciomancers when you could call them necromancers?

I think the distinction is (a) necromancy is explicitly an evil act whereas sciomancy isn't and (b) the sciomancer just talks to the spirits of the dead, rather than summoning them back into their corpses and interrogating them that way.

[LaZodiac]

Can I say I'm looking forward to how plant users are depicted in your works, Zodi??

You definitely can, and I hope you like it

[Form]

Bringing logic to English only makes one ill-prepared.

Yes, but I now have this pathological need desire to bring order to this by inventing a predictable and consistent naming system.

Clearly, mancers are magic specialists and there is a lot of variety. So, we'll need need a system that efficiently captures all possible versions and permutations and conveys someone's aptitude with a single glance. For the suffix we can go with magic, which we can abbreviate to M, and for the prefix we can use the first 2 letters. So:

Hydromancer -> Water magic -> WaM specialist.
Ferromancer -> Metal magic -> MeM specialist.
Phytomancer -> Plant magic -> PlM specialist.
Sanguinomancer -> Blood magic -> BlM specialist.

Permutations are easy as well: Water + Metal -> MeWaM specialist. See? Very easy and intuitive.

...

What?

[Fyraltari]

To answer this question; mancers in my novels setting aren't set in any one group/nation/culture, it's a thing people can just do (think sorcery style magic, where it is inbuilt instead of studied). There's pyromancy, ferromancy, and sanguimancy (blood, sanguine) and also shadowmancy. So there's already some minor hiccups in keeping it fully consistently named. Not that that's a bad thing, but still.

You could call shadowmancers "umbramancers" or "skiamancers".

I think the distinction is (a) necromancy is explicitly an evil act whereas sciomancy isn't and (b) the sciomancer just talks to the spirits of the dead, rather than summoning them back into their corpses and interrogating them that way.

So the difference between necromancy and sciomancy is that sciomancy is exactly what the people called necromancers in real life claimed/believed to be doing?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Darkness would be tenebrae, so maybe tenebramancy.

Does anyone else sometimes wish that they could levitate so that you don't have to walk places?

Since we just got a load of freezing rain, oh frack yes.

[LaZodiac]

Yes, but I now have this pathological need desire to bring order to this by inventing a predictable and consistent naming system.

Clearly, mancers are magic specialists and there is a lot of variety. So, we'll need need a system that efficiently captures all possible versions and permutations and conveys someone's aptitude with a single glance. For the suffix we can go with magic, which we can abbreviate to M, and for the prefix we can use the first 2 letters. So:

Hydromancer -> Water magic -> WaM specialist.
Ferromancer -> Metal magic -> MeM specialist.
Phytomancer -> Plant magic -> PlM specialist.
Sanguinomancer -> Blood magic -> BlM specialist.

Permutations are easy as well: Water + Metal -> MeWaM specialist. See? Very easy and intuitive.

...

What?

I have no idea what any of this means, hahahaha.

and naw in my universe mancies and magic are separate.

You could call shadowmancers "umbramancers" or "skiamancers".

So the difference between necromancy and sciomancy is that sciomancy is exactly what the people called necromancers in real life claimed/believed to be doing?

Darkness would be tenebrae, so maybe tenebramancy.

None of these suggestions felt evocative enough to me when I was writing and now I've got what I've got. Likewise with Sanguimancy being kinda clunky compared to say... Hemomancy, which I'm actually still mad I didn't think of myself.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe play up that shadowmancy doesn't fit the system and is somewhat---other, I guess. Like it's not part of the recognized system?

[Rater202]

I don't know, clunky kind of fits in the context of a character who is just slightly off, out of step with the other members of the main trio when it comes to certain topics, and who doesn't like the powers she has.

[Fyraltari]

I have no idea what any of this means, hahahaha.

and naw in my universe mancies and magic are separate.

What's the difference?

None of these suggestions felt evocative enough to me when I was writing and now I've got what I've got. Likewise with Sanguimancy being kinda clunky compared to say... Hemomancy, which I'm actually still mad I didn't think of myself.

Noxomancy?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nox- or maybe Nyx- (I think the goddess was named Nyx). Nox- might get confused with noxious.

[LaZodiac]

What's the difference?

Noxomancy?

In the most simplistic terms possible; mancies are like bending in Avatar, a natural elemental art that you control with your will and through practice. Magic is like in Final fantasy, where you have specific spells that you know and no matter what, when cast they do the thing the spell does.

Mancers are able to create and control their element, but that's all they can touch. Mages can use magic to do anything, as long as they have the spell, given far wider versatility. Both come from within, but mancies are controlled instinctually, with your heart, while magic is formed through knowledge and study of the world, with your mind. Mancy is feely, magic is thinky.

What would that be? Other than something that sounds cool.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sounds like the traditional distinction made between art and craft.

[Rater202]

What's the difference?

So, in Marvel comics, Hulk is good at math.

Not Banner, Hulk.

Hulk would flunk any math test you made him take, he can't solve for X in the equation (2X)²=36, but in the time it takes him to run over to the tank that's shooting him, he can instinctively do the math in his head in order to know how hard to punch the take and from what trajectory to break the tank without hurting the people inside it. It doesn't really occur to him that it's math, to him, it's a matter of feelings and instinct.

In Zodi's books, that's the difference between Mancy and Magic: The Mancer has instinct and talent, while magic is studied and quantified.

[Rawhide]

In Zodi's books, that's the difference between Mancy and Magic: The Mancer has instinct and talent, while magic is studied and quantified.

There was this untangle game that people were playing and discussing on here. It's one of those ones where multiple lines connect straight between the dots, and you have to move the dots until no line crosses another.

Everyone in the thread was discussing all this rubbish about how to solve it with complex maths. I would just pick up a dot and go "that one feels like it should go over there".

P.S. The last level was EVIL.

[LaZodiac]

Sounds like the traditional distinction made between art and craft.

Yeah, that's a good descriptor. Obviously both are complicated and require work and effort to get good at, but still.

So, in Marvel comics, Hulk is good at math.

Not Banner, Hulk.

Hulk would flunk any math test you made him take, he can't solve for X in the equation (2X)²=36, but in the time it takes him to run over to the tank that's shooting him, he can instinctively do the math in his head in order to know how hard to punch the take and from what trajectory to break the tank without hurting the people inside it. It doesn't really occur to him that it's math, to him, it's a matter of feelings and instinct.

In Zodi's books, that's the difference between Mancy and Magic: The Mancer has instinct and talent, while magic is studied and quantified.

This is a very good example!

There was this untangle game that people were playing and discussing on here. It's one of those ones where multiple lines connect straight between the dots, and you have to move the dots until no line crosses another.

Everyone in the thread was discussing all this rubbish about how to solve it with complex maths. I would just pick up a dot and go "that one feels like it should go over there".

P.S. The last level was EVIL.

That sounds hilarious, and quite fun

[Fyraltari]

In the most simplistic terms possible; mancies are like bending in Avatar, a natural elemental art that you control with your will and through practice. Magic is like in Final fantasy, where you have specific spells that you know and no matter what, when cast they do the thing the spell does.

Mancers are able to create and control their element, but that's all they can touch. Mages can use magic to do anything, as long as they have the spell, given far wider versatility. Both come from within, but mancies are controlled instinctually, with your heart, while magic is formed through knowledge and study of the world, with your mind. Mancy is feely, magic is thinky.

What would that be? Other than something that sounds cool.

Okay, got it.

Night-magic. I was still brainstorming root words related to darkness and shadow. It's Latin, though because I know piss all about ancient Greek (also it should be noctomancy, but come on, why pass on a perfectly serviceable x?)

So, in Marvel comics, Hulk is good at math.

Not Banner, Hulk.

Hulk would flunk any math test you made him take, he can't solve for X in the equation (2X)²=36, but in the time it takes him to run over to the tank that's shooting him, he can instinctively do the math in his head in order to know how hard to punch the take and from what trajectory to break the tank without hurting the people inside it. It doesn't really occur to him that it's math, to him, it's a matter of feelings and instinct.

In Zodi's books, that's the difference between Mancy and Magic: The Mancer has instinct and talent, while magic is studied and quantified.

Hulk would be right. That's not math. Math is a way to modelize the world by reducing it to numbers. What Hulk is doing in that example is the same thing you and I do when, say, scoring a point in basketball. Sure you could modelize what's happening with math but when you do it, you don't use math. You know from experience how much strenght to use to get what result but you're not thinking in tems of newtons or kilograms or watts.

[Peelee]

Hulk would be right. That's not math. Math is a way to modelize the world by reducing it to numbers. What Hulk is doing in that example is the same thing you and I do when, say, scoring a point in basketball. Sure you could modelize what's happening with math but when you do it, you don't use math. You know from experience how much strenght to use to get what result but you're not thinking in tems of newtons or kilograms or watts.

Indeed. A bird that takes flight is not doing math, they are using muscle memory and prior knowledge of wfat happens when the wind shifts in this direction and they lift their wing this much. That's not math, that's experience. Balancing isn't math, despite the enormous amounts of math required to calculate it. Nor walking. Nor jumping, punching, biting, or anything any creature does.