OOTS #943 - The Discussion Thread

[Itrogash]

Huh, so we are over with party members ignoring Blackwing. I'd love to see more interaction.

Food for thought: if Greek pantheon is entirely dead, what deities inhabit Arborea? And, for that matter, what other Outer Planes from Great Circle cosmology, apart from Arborea and Celestial Realm exist in OOTS cosmology?

[Gift Jeraff]

Huh, so we are over with party members ignoring Blackwing. I'd love to see more interaction.

Food for thought: if Greek pantheon is entirely dead, what deities inhabit Arborea? And, for that matter, what other Outer Planes from Great Circle cosmology, apart from Arborea and Celestial Realm exist in OOTS cosmology?

The whole Great Circle cosmology seems to exist in OOTS.

-Roy mentions several in Panel 8
-The Nine Hells
-Mechanus/Nirvana is seen and Pandemonium is mentioned here
-The Dark One seems to reside in Acheron
-Tarterus is mentioned in the last panel

And I think I remember Arcadia being mentioned at some point.

[Oko and Qailee]

Who says there's going to be a vote? The only time I can remember the Order do anything resembling voting, the point was to legitimize and let them all buy into a decision Roy had already made and wasn't going to change.

You don't know for certain that Roy wouldn't have let the vote pass. We've never had an opportunity for Roy to go back on a voted on issue, so we don't have a status quo.

Roy has called a "vote", sort of, before when he tore up the contracts regarding Xykon and the entire party still went with him.

At this point it's clear the entire party is going to go with what Roy says simply because he's got a good track record going for him and the right combination of qualities that makes him a good leader. Like Belkar said they were useless while he took their dirt nap (not true ofc, but from their perspective it is).

[Breccia]

A bit of characterization of Elan I like in this strip:

In panel 4, Bandana is clearly handing Elan both the letter and the Chaos Sabre. In the very next panel, Elan is reading the letter (or is it blank? not sure...) and the Chaos Sabre is leaning against the railing eight feet away. Then, after being directly told the Chaos Sabre was his, he still focuses on Julio's message about vacation plans, and the Chaos Sabre is still leaning against the railing. Elan doesn't even glance at it.

If Roy, Belkar, Haley or V were flat-out handed a powerful combat upgrade, there is a zero percent chance they'd leave it precariously close to the edge of a flying ship, traveling quickly over landmark-less desert. Hell, Roy and maybe V would have stopped mid-message and given the weapon a few practice swings. Belkar would have flat-out stabbed someone with it without even touching the paper. And we've all seen "GIVE ME MY STAFF!" so whe know where Count Chocul*cough*Durkon's motives lie.Most players would be writing "Chaos Sabre +5" on their character sheet while the DM was still reading the message.

But not Elan. Elan doesn't care about combat. And in the world he lives in, and the story he's involved in, that's special.

[ORione]

And we've all seen "GIVE ME MY STAFF!" so whe know where Count Chocul*cough*Durkon's motives lie.

Well, the staff's not just a weapon. Durkon's (un)life depended on getting it back.

[Amphiox]

Possibilities include, but are not limited to: to attract fan speculation, to just make a pretty image, and to explain where Xykon had buggered off to in the early chapters of Blood Runs in the Family. None of these possibilities requires that anybody visit the fortress ever again.

Ah, but none of these possibilities PRECLUDE the fortress being visited in the future, which by definition makes the fortress not irrelevant.

Well, the staff's not just a weapon. Durkon's (un)life depended on getting it back.

This is actually a clue concerning the debate about Durkon's desires. If he had not wanted to remain a vampire, he could have let himself be dusted. Instead he fought to get the staff back. This at least suggests, if not definitely proves, that the entity in side Durkon, at this moment, wants to continue existing in its current state.

[Kish]

Ah, but none of these possibilities PRECLUDE the fortress being visited in the future, which by definition makes the fortress not irrelevant.

That doesn't make any sense. The Order could visit the halfling village where Hank was born; that doesn't mean that village is (present tense) relevant.

I do not believe we will be treated to multiple strips of the Order battling their way through the astral fortress, because it would just pointlessly frustrate the audience in a way Rich has never done. It is my opinion that if Rich meant for the Order to have an entire sub-arc dedicated to fighting their way through that fortress because Rich has the stageset now and it would be a waste not to use it, he would have put the "Redcloak switched phylacteries" reveal at the end of that sub-arc, not right up front. I also wonder how you're using the word "irrelevant" and whether it coincides with the usage of the person you responded to; are you arguing that the Order will go to the astral fortress at some point, or just that the astral fortress may be mentioned again in the story in some way?

This is actually a clue concerning the debate about Durkon's desires. If he had not wanted to remain a vampire, he could have let himself be dusted. Instead he fought to get the staff back. This at least suggests, if not definitely proves, that the entity in side Durkon, at this moment, wants to continue existing in its current state.

That also doesn't make any sense. Not wanting to be burned to ash by the sun while the rest of the Order was in battle proves and suggests substantially less than already established simply by his not immediately committing suicide once he regained his free will. Clearly he did not welcome destruction while the Order was in battle and the world was still at stake, but we already knew that.

[Breccia]

Well, the staff's not just a weapon. Durkon's (un)life depended on getting it back.

Sorry, I should have emphasized the "MY" part of "GIVE ME MY STAFF!" to make my point more clear. Yes, Durkula didn't want to burst into flame, but he had clearly accepted the potent magic item, which he had inherited but minutes before, as his own.

[Shale]

I'm not ruling out the Order going to the astral fortress, but if they do it won't be for the phylactery. There'd be something else making it relevant - Xykon retreats there, or maybe MITD's astral-plane history comes into play, but not just a wild-goose chase for Redcloak's (fake) old holy symbol. I trust Rich not to do a version of the Fake Namek arc.

[Sir_Leorik]

Wait a second... When have I heard about Jolio Scoundrel having something to do with a soupcan before...?

SSDT Spoiler:

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Wasn't he suppose to be searching for a "cosmic soupcan"? Didn't the giant say something about having to write in the soup can as part of a kickstarted reward story? This strip would make a great setup for a later story involving it.

Also, while a voiceover in a mundane can is all fine and good. Imagine what his voice would sound like through a cosmic soupcan. Suddenly it makes sense that Elan doesn't see him.

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Could this truly be the Cosmic Soupcan? (I think it's a proper name, like Infinity Gauntlet, Cosmic Cube, Anti-Life Equation or Restaurant at the End of the Universe.) We may need to wait until the Julio Scoundrel comic from the Kickstarter comes out!

Food for thought: if Greek pantheon is entirely dead, what deities inhabit Arborea? And, for that matter, what other Outer Planes from Great Circle cosmology, apart from Arborea and Celestial Realm exist in OOTS cosmology?

Probably the Elven Pantheon, just like in the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology.

[Elfich]

And I was expecting a different trope to be mentioned:

The Final Fantasy: you have unlocked the airship so you can go to the new continent gag.

It fits right in, especially how Élan and Thog met Julio in the first case- trying to fake it as Final Fantasy characters so they could hitch a ride on an airship.

[Bulldog Psion]

Sorry, I should have emphasized the "MY" part of "GIVE ME MY STAFF!" to make my point more clear. Yes, Durkula didn't want to burst into flame, but he had clearly accepted the potent magic item, which he had inherited but minutes before, as his own.

I'm not sure that people starting to burn to death care particularly about the semantics or ownership issues involved in preventing their incineration.

[Nimrod's Son]

@Nimrod's Son: I'm not sure if you're being sincere or not.

Little tip: if you want clarification on a post from several pages back, it's usually helpful and at the very least considered good form to read the next half-page or so to see if it's already been addressed.

That said, if I was being genuinely sincere with what I posted there, in the context of this latest strip, then I'd probably be some sort of lunatic and replying to me with facts likely wouldn't do much to change my mind. So there's that.

If you are not being sincere, please use emoticons next time? Thanx!

It's pretty hard to do deadpan with a big grin on your face. I use emoticons as I see fit. You don't have to reply to everything, you know.

[Breccia]

I'm not sure that people starting to burn to death care particularly about the semantics or ownership issues involved in preventing their incineration.

All the more important, then, that he gravitated towards "MY" on instinct.

[David Argall]

In Roy's defense, he was absent the first two times Blackwing appeared, was a bit busy looking for Vaarsuvius (who had mysteriously disappeared) the third time, was being targeted by assassins the fourth time, was fighting Xykon on the back of a Zombie Dragon the fifth time and was dead the sixth time. Likewise, Durkon was not present the first time Blackwing appeared, nor the fourth, fifth or sixth times. But Durkon has no real excuse for not remembering Blackwing's second appearance; he cast healing spells on the bird for crying out loud!

So no, Roy was not busting V's chops; he honestly never saw V and Blackwing together at the same time. Durkon wasn't busting V's chops either. Belkar would have been busting V's chops if he actually paid attention to anything. When Blackwing joined Roy and Belkar at the arena, after the fight with Thog and Zz'dtri to report on V's whereabouts, Roy recognizes Blackwing as the bird on V's shoulder, whereas Belkar does not. Belkar only pays attention to things that involve stabbing people or turning Kobolds into objects d'art.

The relevant Blackwing record [offer additions please]
#3-Belkar & Haley see Blackwing. Belker is the one who reminds V of familiar.
154. Belkar & Haley see. Haley names.
155. Belkar, Haley, & Durkon see. Durkon heals.
178. Haley, Roy, & Durkon see. Belkar presumably, but off-screen. Haley tells Roy V has a familiar right before it appears.
179. Belkar & Roy see bird.
271 Everybody sees, and hears V call it "treacherous", a word that requires some expectation of loyalty and association.
440 Appears during attack on city. Likely missed by others, but likely means there were several times Blackwing was just not on camera, but was visible to other party members.
658-660 Again away from party, but reports on the fight could have mentioned it, and those reports could have got to the party.
672 Start of Blackwing's routine appearances
673 all see. Blackwing appears in most scenes that V does from here on.
674 All see, but we are told the attitude has changed. Party things bird is fake.
698 Roy denies the familiar. Is clearly serious
809 Belkar & Roy are ignorant of familiar, but aware V had a real bird with him. V is not present to be the butt of any jokes.
932 Belkar is addressed by bird and shows no surprise. [Off-camera presumably]
943 Haley says she was just joking.

So the evidence is highly against this having just been a joke. Up to about 670, party sightings of Blackwing are rare, but accepted as seeing a familiar. With 674 sightings become common, but nobody can remember that V has a familiar, and insist they would know if she had one. This attitude might be slowly wearing off as the party has gone from not even accepting that it was a real bird to understanding what is said, and now with Haley denying she had ever forgot it.
932 seems particularly bad for the joke theory. While we can, with strain & twisting, assume that Roy does not know there is a familiar, Belkar was clearly once well-aware of the familiar, and would have been happy to joke, but now he is just ignorant.
The serious Durkon was also rather unlikely to joke, but clearly denied Blackwing despite having healed him.
So some theories...
The exposure to the rift caused all knowledge of Blackwing to be suppressed, and it is gradually being recovered, first by those with the most exposure to the bird. This seems consistent with all the known facts, but the idea is insane, despite having been used in some Dragonlance novels, and elsewhere.
Something else had much the same effects, which leaves us free to speculate, but still doesn't make sensible that somehow something is able to slip into every mental library everywhere and cut out page 46 of a particular book.
The author could have his own reasons. The joke may becoming old and something else works better now. A former planned continuation is now seen as bad.... So the writer is writing it out of the story as best he can when 900 pages have already been written.
But the idea that Haley was joking in 674 gets into lots of trouble the more we look at earlier facts.

[Jay R]

If it's completely irrelevant, why did The Giant devote time to describe and draw it?

To show how seriously Xykon is trying to protect it, and to make clear why Redcloak needed to create a fake, of course. They showed the ABlack Gate in The Lord of the Rings, not because Frodo and Sam were going into it, but to show why they were looking for another way in.

After all, even the Polearm merchant got a callback.

Nonetheless, I do not believe that when the Giant drew #136 with the polearm merchant, he had planned for that to be Geoff and Ivy's sun. Don't confuse a comic callback with a planned plot point.

[The Shadow]

Not really gonna address the rest, but I do want to point out that as I look at your Join Date you should know as well as I do that whenever that card is pulled out of the deck, it is almost always wrong.

Might want to re-examine your stance in light of that.

Not really inclined, no. Rich has often surprised me, but the surprises have pretty much always been good ones. As I said, my theory may well be wrong; but if so, I very much doubt the truth is something so lame as the ham-handed dropping of a storyline he went out of his way to establish.

And yes, I've been around here for quite a while, though I seldom post. I have the distinction of having been the very first person on here to publicly predict that Haley's father was imprisoned by Elan's father back in the day. :) Not that that makes me right this time, of course.

[Tragak]

It's pretty hard to do deadpan with a big grin on your face.

If it helps, the accepted deadpan-without-emoticon on this site is blue text. Like you'll ever use that.

[Kish]

Not really inclined, no. Rich has often surprised me, but the surprises have pretty much always been good ones. As I said, my theory may well be wrong; but if so, I very much doubt the truth is something so lame as the ham-handed dropping of a storyline he went out of his way to establish.

From the perspective that "no, really, the joke was a joke" is far less lame than the theoretical "ham-handed dropping of a storyline he went out of his way to establish," I am certain you're right.

[Mr. Pants]

Mmm...chicken-fried raven.

[Amphiox]

Nonetheless, I do not believe that when the Giant drew #136 with the polearm merchant, he had planned for that to be Geoff and Ivy's sun. Don't confuse a comic callback with a planned plot point.

Why do you think my comment implies a "planned plot point"? Because it doesn't. I certainly did not say anything about planning whatsoever.

By putting the detail out there, the Giant has given himself the option of revisiting it. He may choose to exercise that option or he may not. He does not have to have planned it from the beginning. It's a question of flexibility in story-creation.

The Order going to Xykon's astral fortress or having a callback to it doesn't have to be a huge, multi-strip dungeon crawl. Many other possibilities are out there. They could show up after some build-up, only to have it blow up in their faces for a gag. They could show up only find out that O'Chul has somehow already managed to clear the thing. They could show up, find the soul gemstone with Durokan and Lirian in it in the first room, get warned not to go further, and then retreat. They could talk about going there in a few panels, and then decide not to after all. It could be played for drama, or for laughs, or anything in between.

Lots of options. The list above is just a few.

[Itrogash]

The whole Great Circle cosmology seems to exist in OOTS.

-Roy mentions several in Panel 8
-The Nine Hells
-Mechanus/Nirvana is seen and Pandemonium is mentioned here
-The Dark One seems to reside in Acheron
-Tarterus is mentioned in the last panel

And I think I remember Arcadia being mentioned at some point.

Hm, I think there was also talk about Elysium at some point. Well, it seems Planes' names are not trademarked.
Also, every but the last of your links are broken

Probably the Elven Pantheon, just like in the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology.

Oh right, I forgot that elves and other races (apart of dwarves apparently) have their own pantheon.

[ORione]

Oh right, I forgot that elves and other races (apart of dwarves apparently) have their own pantheon.

I think it's just the elves and goblins. In OotS, I mean.

[Sir_Leorik]

All the more important, then, that he gravitated towards "MY" on instinct.

I've tried arguing something similar in the past, that Durkon no longer has his accent because his Charisma score is higher now, but that seems to get people upset. I guess we'll have to wait for more developments on Vamp!Durkon in Book Six.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hm, I think there was also talk about Elysium at some point. Well, it seems Planes' names are not trademarked.
Also, every but the last of your links are broken


Oh right, I forgot that elves and other races (apart of dwarves apparently) have their own pantheon.

Fixed.

[orrion]

Ah, but none of these possibilities PRECLUDE the fortress being visited in the future, which by definition makes the fortress not irrelevant.

What?

Celia was seen visiting her home (plane?) when she was explaining how she ended up coming to defend the Order at the trial. Does that mean you think the party might visit the Elemental Plane of Air at some point?


The fortress is irrelevant as a dungeon; it's still highly relevant to Xykon. It shows his obsessions and fears and explains what he was doing all the time between when his phylactery was lost and when Team Evil teleported to Girard's gate.

[Tragak]

What?

Celia was seen visiting her home (plane?) when she was explaining how she ended up coming to defend the Order at the trial. Does that mean you think the party might visit the Elemental Plane of Air at some point?

The fortress is irrelevant as a dungeon; it's still highly relevant to Xykon. It shows his obsessions and fears and explains what he was doing all the time between when his phylactery was lost and when Team Evil teleported to Girard's gate.

Yes, but Celia isn't the Big Bad of the story who needs to be battled at some point
… we think. Well, Celia probably isn't the Big Bad.

[David Argall]

I think all those reasons were debated and put to rest long ago, such as Elan contacting Julio for specifically countering Tarquin.

But at the time of contact, Elan had no reason to think Tarquin needed countering. Tarquin had been highly friendly and useful. He may have shown himself highly evil, but that needs attacking, not countering.

He's retiring or at least on vacation. Even assuming such a sign exists, why would he care? It's not like his alignment compels him to fight the good fight.

It also does not compel him to avoid it, quite the reverse. And the point is that you are taking the position that Scoundrel is not coming back. So any theory that shows he might return has to be proven wrong, no exceptions, or your position is wrong.

Besides, you yourself posited the scenario as the Order encoutering "the retried Scoundrel [who is just touring the planes..]." He'd hardly be retired if he saw any of those signs and decided to act.

Perhaps you recall the old joke, "busman's holiday", where a worker takes a vacation that is much like his job. The fact this is an old joke shows this is not a rare event. That Scoundrel has a "job" robbing/seducing/rescuing women does not preclude a "vacation" of robbing/seducing/rescuing women.

This is the problem with your arguments here. You're trying to hard to BS a way for Scoundrel to show up again that you're contradicting yourself from post to post.

I don't need to be consistent here. If there is one way he can show up, we have the plot weaknesses I have mentioned. So even if 99 ways are not going to happen, and the 100th might, we have a flaw in the story.

Redcloak identified his lampshade hanging to the point of bringing in a physical lampshade, and that wasn't a feeble lampshade at all. Elan points out tropes and techniques all the time, and he's not the only one. In short, such naming or pointing out is a common element in OOTS and doing so is not indicative of the strength or weakness of said technique.

Apples and oranges. Lampshading is the author "saying" "OK, I'm doing something stupid here. Just roll with it." It can be done before or after, or during the flaw in question. Foreshadowing has to be done before, as the very name says. So if you say there was lots of foreshadowing, that foreshadowing has not done its job and you didn't have enough or good foreshadowing.

Oh? Does this mean you're revising your previous stance that Julio is definitely going to come back and wreck the narrative? You were arguing that for several weeks.

I have made no such stance. Rather, I have said that after bringing him back once, you have no good way to say he is not coming back again.

There are plenty of valid reasons.

Name them.

Some of them relate back to the stance that Julio showing up here was for a specific reason and it was set up as such. All you're doing here is randomly throwing out ways for him to show up for no reason whatsoever.

Along about 400, we didn't have any sort of specific reason either. So why do we need a specific reason this time?

[Tragak]

I don't need to be consistent here. If there is one way he can show up, we have the plot weaknesses I have mentioned. So even if 99 ways are not going to happen, and the 100th might, we have a flaw in the story.

...

Along about 400, we didn't have any sort of specific reason either. So why do we need a specific reason this time?

We found them! Do we get 4 points?

[MindMaster4801]

again amazing work I wonder if there will be a swordmage character. I love
swordmages.