OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread

[Kornaki]

Maybe Myron and Laurin will decide that they've let him be the figurehead long enough, kill him, and find somebody else to be the warlord who thinks he's in charge of their plan to rule the continent through three empires.

This would be the absolute best

[Forikroder]

All of that though is more important plot wise and powerwise than fireballing 40mooks. The Linear guild the second time in the hallway alone would have been a much harder encounter than these mooks, but The Order prepared for it and won pretty decisively.

I'm not debating those fights weren't as hard as they could be, but I just simply don't agree that V has been the useful party member today so far.

noone is saying that but V accomplished more casting 3 spells then the rest of the order managed to accomplish in however many rounds theyve been fighting

[warrl]

When a high-level Wizard meets an army of mooks, the mooks die. Period. When a high-level Wizard meets by themselves an opponent of other classes that is the same level as them, the Wizard dies.

Really? After the Wizard casts Stoneskin or Protection From Arrows, some sort of flying spell, and Greater Invisibility, and goes 20-30 feet in the air, how exactly does a same-level non-caster attack him effectively?

While up there, the Wizard can cast multiple Summons, or blaster spells (Vaarsuvius' forte, and sub-optimal), or save-or-die spells. Or, if he's feeling nice and his objectives allow for it, cause the sound of retreating footsteps to occur so the Fighter will run past him and leave the way clear for him to proceed.

The Wizard is a Tier 1 class. Above level 10 or so, in an encounter (or an entire dungeon) designed for a party consisting of a single Tier 1 character and four Tier 3 characters, the single Tier 1 character should be able to solo it.

[Clovis]

Getting back to the theme song; here's a punk version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HvXtadPpQw

[Ghost Nappa]

actually, pretty much it means exactly that.

thats also why V had a benchwarming session, as well as 2 more in reserve.

V's sudden appearance on the battlefield is not a Deus Ex Machina, at least not to us, the readers. To the rest of the Order? Potentially.

1) A Deus Ex Machina is a Solution to a problem the characters are facing. V's appearance, is a solution. Here's a Gold star smilie face.

2) Vaarsuvius' re-appearance was both earlier alluded to. We saw V attempting to communicate with the Order before they damaged the Gate, and we knew well in-advance that V's benching would be temporary. Furthermore, as a High Level wizard, it makes perfect sense for V to be able to turn the tides, and it makes perfect sense for V to help the Order at the drop of a hat because of already established characterization (why V would help them in the first place, why V would not hesitate, etc.)

3) The Order was NOT in a hopeless situation that couldn't have been resolved without V. Durkula and Elan were in no danger, and Durkula is still going to get his spells back at Dusk. Haley is pretty safe given both high DEX and the fact that Tarquin somewhat-begrudgingly ships Haley x Elan. Roy and Belkar are the only ones in trouble, and we already know they have a pretty good plan which involves throwing sand up for concealment, taking cover, and waiting for Durkula to wreck someone's face. They are rather consistently taking down opponents, which means not only are they getting more cover from enemy corpses, but they're also facing less opposition and the enemy has less ammunition.

It is sort of a "Big Damn Heroes" moment. Although, really, it's just Vaarsuvius serving as reinforcements.

[Oko and Qailee]

noone is saying that but V accomplished more casting 3 spells then the rest of the order managed to accomplish in however many rounds theyve been fighting

In this fight yes.

But the original quote was that V "saved the day", and yes she did. But I feel like it's unfair to say "has done more than the rest of the party" because it discounts how much the Order has done while V was taking her Hell Nap (really bad reference to Belkar using the term "dirt nap" before).

I guess it's not important though.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

As promised last thread -

She/he/V-ian Rhapsody
to the tune of Bohemian Rhapsody, by Queen
(I recomend listening along as you read)


Is this the real life?
Or gaming parody?
Wield arcane power
with my superior wizardry.

Open your eyes!
Look under the Gate! It’s me!

I’m just a poor elf, who dealt with IFCC,
With them it’s easy come, hard to go,
their profits - high, their wager - low,
And when blue orb glowed, it gave the power of three, to Darth V.

Inky! Just killed a dragon,
Put a spell against its head,
Now her entire race is dead.
Inky! I must save everyone,
I really can’t just throw this power away.

Draketooths! Nooooo,
Didn't mean to make you die,
I must amend my discretions for a better tomorrow,
Roy stop! Knock knock! You know nothing on these matters.

Too late, Cedrik’s time has come,
Failed to shatter Xykon’s spine,
Now I’m paying for my crime.
Goodbye, to my body, to Hell I go,
Gotta leave you behind. This feels uncouth.

Krakak! Ooooooom! (that’s the way the Gate blows),
But I haven’t died,
Under my understanding - this shouldn’t possible.

I can’t even see a silhouetto of your plan,
Scarammmph! Scarammmph! Magic gag from Nero.
Malak dies from lighting,
Durkon kills my opponent, Zz’dtri.
(Dramatic Moment) Dramatic Moment.
(No Attonement) No Attonement,
Tarquin gives Nale a killing blow.
No saving throw!

I'm just a Raven and why does this affect me?
You're a familiar, so your soul’s linked to V,
Sparing your lives from all damage on the TV.

Easy there, Sabine, no! Will you let me go?
Bismillah! No! This couch - I have to throw.
(Have to throw!) Nale’s dead, ‘cause I was banished here below.
(Here below!) What a mess! Repayment you will owe.
(You will owe!) Tarquin doesn’t know.
(Doesn’t know!) Revenge I will bestow
(Good thing I sent up my Teevo!) Ah.
Tic, Tic, Tic, Tic, Tic, Tic- Ding!
(Oh the bell, oh the bell) It’s been swell, time to go.
Vaarsuvius! Go up and knock ‘em dead for me, for me, for me!

Hard to see with this sand in my eye!
Now to cast elemental spells that make enemies die!
Oh, party! I’ve returned to my party!
Fire wall is up, It appears we will make our stand here.

(Oh, yeah, oh yeah)

I apologize for my absence,
Greenhilt and Party,
Most know nothing of these matters,
Nothing of these matters…but me.

(Ocean wind from rift blows)

Enjoy folks!

[Sir_Leorik]

It's a variant on the joke, "I still miss [someone], but my aim is getting better," where the point is that the first half of the sentence implies positive feelings while the second half clarifies that the sentence actually expresses hostility.

You might be the last person of the forum to regret Vaarsuvius' absence and thus miss her/him in that sense, but you'd be the first to throw something at her/him, which since nothing hit her/him suggests you missed.

Kish, does that imply that you did regret V's absence?

[warrl]

Erm... Azure City was assaulted by 10.000+ hobgoblins with spell casters plus X/RC and several skeletal thingies plus zombies and other undead (many raised during the battle by Tsukiko).

The Battle of the Sandbox includes one division of mooks primed for plot spoiling.

And the PC's are higher level here. And the mooks fear to fight Elan.

So "stark contrast"...well, yes, indeed.

There's another critical difference. While the Order could have fought against the attacking army and done a lot of damage, they could not defend the entire city on their own. Or even in combination with the paladins. Not enough of them, too large an army. Enough of the army mooks could just *go around* them to destroy the city.

These army mooks do not have the option of going around Roy to get to their objective - Roy *is* their objective. (Also it's a much smaller army.)

[oonker]

you dont pick up replacement mentors in a bar

Except that Elan did!

[Sir_Leorik]

At the risk of igniting the whole Familicide/redemption talk, there is something that has been bugging me about it the whole time.

Redemption itself.

Many people have been bringing up the words of Soon as the definitive article as how to reach redemption.

Maybe so. Certainly so from a (Lawful) Good point of view.

One problem with that. V is not, and possibly never has been, Good.

"No, stuff, Porthos. Tell us something we don't know", I hear V's detractors say.

Well, it's an important point to raise I feel.

To 'make up' for casting Familicide V might very well have to seek redress from those he's wronged.... If he was trying to get into a Good Afterlife.

But a Neutral One? Especially a True Neutral one? Then the whole "Seek to atone for an act of great evil by doing good deeds for the rest of my life" is practically written for those of a True Neutral viewpoint. Certain Druids of previous editions would certainly nod their heads in agreement.

So when we talk about 'redemption' we might want to consider 'From What Alignment Viewpoint'. I certainly agree that V is in for tough sledding to get in a Lawful Good afterlife, or any Good afterlife for that matter.

But True Neutral? That might very well still be on the cards.

I think this whole "looking at redemption from the wrong angle" is something that should at least be considered.

That's a great post Porthos, and would be a worthwhile addition to the "Redemption for V" thread. It manages to keep the issue of redemption squarely within the four cubits of D&D's Alignment system without approaching morally justified territory!

[shimmercat]

Yay, Vaarsuvius is back! :D

/pointless gleeful input

[Shining Wrath]

So now we see why The Giant needs to keep V off screen - just like Tolkien and Gandalf. The desperate battle just turned into a slaughter, with V doing the slaughtering.

Tarquin's counter-move will be next. And Elan and Haley are outside the ring of fire, so he can easily have his fellows launch their full efforts at those within.

Will Laurin and Miron go along?

[Forikroder]

Except that Elan did!

that was his orignial mentor

[David Argall]

I disagree. Of everyone, V is the one who is -most- able to upset Tarquin's plan, because Tarquin didn't know that V was a factor. As far as T knew, Zz'diri had defeated V back in the capitol, and so his plans most certainly did NOT count on a high level wizard whose spells hadn't been depleted one iota.

A-We are talking plot, not rules mechanics, here. And the plot says the party is under dire threat here. The actual rules don't matter in the least. The script says the party is in desperate straits here, and so they are. [The script also says they will survive, and so they shall, again with no regard to what the rules say.]
B-We get the same result when we talk rules. The party is still doomed, unless Tarquin or others call off the army. Sure they kill hundreds, even thousands of the mooks, but they keep taking little bits of damage and it adds up. The party flees or dies.
Now V kills a lot of the wimps, but all his spells are dailies. For the next minutes, she rules. Thereafter, he is an empty gas can. She can give the party some time, and provide a way to retreat, but he doesn't change the result. She too must flee or die.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Wombat of doom, you just won everything, and have become the second greatest poster on the GITP forums after Atticusxt.

[oonker]

that was his orignial mentor

I know, I just didn't want to lose the joke

[Sebastian]

Gotta wonder if when the tide of the battle turns Tarquin's adventuring party will get involved.

Also, could somebody please explain to a noob like me why bat guano is a material component of Fireball?

For the exact same reason you can make homemade bombs with fertilizer.

[Oko and Qailee]

As promised last thread -

Enjoy folks!

I did

Good work and very clever :)
I can even imagine how it goes in tune and everything

[Shatteredtower]

Really? After the Wizard casts Stoneskin or Protection From Arrows, some sort of flying spell, and Greater Invisibility, and goes 20-30 feet in the air, how exactly does a same-level non-caster attack him effectively?

If we're talking about those used in the Giant's narrative?

1. Carry a 50 foot length of rope with a knotted loop made at one end.
2. Throw it around the wizard's body.
3. Pull.

The story's better for it too.

[Forikroder]

If we're talking about those used in the Giant's narrative?

1. Carry a 50 foot length of rope with a knotted loop made at one end.
2. Throw it around the wizard's body.
3. Pull.

The story's better for it too.

and when he just destroys the rope? even assuming that somehwo someone is strong enough to overpower a flight spell?

[Jay R]

Except that Elan did!

You're right. Even if Tarquin succeeded in killing Roy, we have confirmation that Elan could easily go to a tavern and find some other leader to serve.

that was his orignial mentor

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs?

Spoiler

Show

His mentor was Sir Francois. When Francois left him, he found Roy in a bar.

Also, when Francois, left him, Elan said, "Awww, not again!" This implies previous mentors as well.

Roy isn't his original mentor. Roy is just the only one who didn't get rid of him (although he came close, in the forest).

[Shatteredtower]

and when he just destroys the rope?

Then he's not casting his collection of, "I can't be affected by anything because reasons," spells while you're snapping his neck.

even assuming that somehwo someone is strong enough to overpower a flight spell?

Flight spells don't have a strength score, nor do they serve as anchors. You can play a game where they give you all that and a pony, but I prefer something closer to sword and sorcery simulation.

Getting back to the comic, it's why the Giant opted to avoid optimization. It's a story killer.

[Paisley]

*awesomeness*

This is pure and utter brilliance.

[Math_Mage]

Indeed, I can see Tarquin's allies deciding he is a liability to be a plausible end for Tarquin (admittedly they show no signs of turning on him thus far, but he has no doubt taught them the advantages of keeping a poker face).

I can't see them deciding he's a liability. I CAN see them deciding he's wasting too many resources on a personal matter and voting to pull out. Then we'll see what his much-vaunted team chemistry is really worth.

If we're talking about those used in the Giant's narrative?

1. Carry a 50 foot length of rope with a knotted loop made at one end.
2. Throw it around the wizard's body.
3. Pull.

The story's better for it too.

*cough Greater Invisibility cough*

How's he supposed to land that?

[Joe the Rat]

As promised last thread -

[here there be awesome]

Enjoy folks!

Yeah, now there's the awesome. Well done!

[cctrackstar]

V is OP. Petition to nerf V.

Yeah, this was on page one or two, but I still have an opinion on it. Each type of character has their strengths and weaknesses, and when it comes to wizards, they excel in mass destruction while being somewhat limited when it comes to one on one combat. As characters level up, their resistances go up and they can endure a simple fireball or flame wall, case in point, our heroes running right through a blade barrier. However, fighters can only endure so many crits from an army before they fall anyway, while a mage/sorceror can roast large numbers of them with a flick of a finger. It's not a matter of V being overpowered, it's a matter of him getting into a situation where he is most effective with the talents that he has.

(On a side note to emphasize talents, Fighters are excellent one on one fighters because of high level defenses and high attack ratings, so the wizard is better suited to be a support piece with the tanks up front. we're talking role playing 101 here.)

[Lordchoculla]

Hmmm.... wonder if something like normal morale plays a role in the Stickworld? A force, even one as disciplined as Tarquin's generic mook-plot spoiler division, that takes such huge losses as they must have by now would start to waver in their morale/desire to get to the enemy just to get killed. IRL it would likely end in a rout with the defeated force fleeing back through the entry gate if it is still active.

Guess they have plot-morale... i.e. they will fight as long as it serves the purpose of the story and storytelling. Would make sense to me.

Fine with me. Love the story and wait with great expectations on the remaining million (I hope) installments of the adventure.

Thanks, mr. Giant, for a great story and a super reentry of V. Excellent.

[Reddish Mage]

Hmmm.... wonder if something like normal morale plays a role in the Stickworld? A force, even one as disciplined as Tarquin's generic mook-plot spoiler division, that takes such huge losses as they must have by now would start to waver in their morale/desire to get to the enemy just to get killed. IRL it would likely end in a rout with the defeated force fleeing back through the entry gate if it is still active.

Guess they have plot-morale... i.e. they will fight as long as it serves the purpose of the story and storytelling. Would make sense to me.

Recall, V was out of play for less than half an hour and just got in an opening salvo. There may have not been enough time for the army to get the message that they are fighting a battle against a group of army killers.

Also note that at their head is a party that is apparently higher-level and a lot nastier than the heroes, and can have the soldier's families killed if the soldiers desert.

I expect to see higher level involvement by Team Tarquin in the next strip.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Azure City was assaulted by 10.000+ hobgoblins with spell casters plus X/RC and several skeletal thingies plus zombies and other undead (many raised during the battle by Tsukiko).

Minor nitpick: it was 30,000 hobgoblins. The army took 10,000 of those as casualties, though, which may be where you remembered the number from.