OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

And with the phisical atributes is even more absurd, someone who has 18 strength cant have 3 constitution.

It's not that absurd. A bodybuilder whose body fat level is ludicrously low, and who concentrates on "lifting" instead of on anything requiring endurance, might be exceedingly fragile, exceedingly bad at CON-based activities like sprinting, long-distance marching, and so forth. They might get ill more easily. And so forth.

For that matter, the same might be true of a weightlifter with a ludicrously high body fat level - they might struggle to sprint, or march, when compared to other weightlifters of the same lifting capacity but more normal physiques, and better all-round exercise training.

Being "strong but fragile" really is a thing.

[Liquor Box]

It's not that absurd. A bodybuilder whose body fat level is ludicrously low, and who concentrates on "lifting" instead of on anything requiring endurance, might be exceedingly fragile, exceedingly bad at CON-based activities like sprinting, long-distance marching, and so forth. They might get ill more easily. And so forth.

For that matter, the same might be true of a weightlifter with a ludicrously high body fat level - they might struggle to sprint, or march, when compared to other weightlifters of the same lifting capacity but more normal physiques, and better all-round exercise training.

Being "strong but fragile" really is a thing.

Steroids is this in a can

[hamishspence]

And being high Con low Str is pretty plausible as well - someone who is a marathon runner or marathon swimmer doesn't have to have huge brawny arms or legs. Some might look downright scrawny.

[hroþila]

But for example a cyclist's peak body fat does make them relatively vulnerable to disease though. It's not healthy to stay at those levels for long stretches of time, which contributes to endurance athletes needing to carefully plan how and when they want to peak during the season.

[pendell]

It's not that absurd. A bodybuilder whose body fat level is ludicrously low, and who concentrates on "lifting" instead of on anything requiring endurance, might be exceedingly fragile, exceedingly bad at CON-based activities like sprinting, long-distance marching, and so forth. They might get ill more easily. And so forth.

For that matter, the same might be true of a weightlifter with a ludicrously high body fat level - they might struggle to sprint, or march, when compared to other weightlifters of the same lifting capacity but more normal physiques, and better all-round exercise training.

Being "strong but fragile" really is a thing.

Yeah. Everyone's heard of Navy SEALs right? Very few bodybuilders in their ranks . The people who make it tend to be very small, very wiry, very high endurance. The ability to run or march 20 miles counts for a lot more than the ability to bench press a piano. All that additional muscle mass requires food which is not always in plentiful supply on route marches. I guess what that equates to in D&D terms is very high constitution, middling strength score, say in the 11-14 range.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Okay but I totally just thought about wereseal soldiers now.

[Vikenlugaid]

It's not that absurd. A bodybuilder whose body fat level is ludicrously low, and who concentrates on "lifting" instead of on anything requiring endurance, might be exceedingly fragile, exceedingly bad at CON-based activities like sprinting, long-distance marching, and so forth. They might get ill more easily. And so forth.

For that matter, the same might be true of a weightlifter with a ludicrously high body fat level - they might struggle to sprint, or march, when compared to other weightlifters of the same lifting capacity but more normal physiques, and better all-round exercise training.

Being "strong but fragile" really is a thing.

Again, high str and low con? Ok. But TOP str and BOTTOM con is imposible. The body doesn't work that way, you can't train your body only for one thing, you can focus on one thing above others, but indirectly you will be trainning that others aswell.
A weightlifter who focus in pure strength still will hava far more endurance than someone who doesn't do sport at all. Because, at the very least, he needs endurance to mantain that muscles working.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I enjoyed the little dynamic of Haley being a little more on top her game than Vaarsuvius here. Makes sense for a rogue versus rogue showdown. And of course the ending sequence was super sweet. I hope Sunny and Elan take advantage of their time together to become fast friends.

[Vikenlugaid]

I enjoyed the little dynamic of Haley being a little more on top her game than Vaarsuvius here. Makes sense for a rogue versus rogue showdown. And of course the ending sequence was super sweet. I hope Sunny and Elan take advantage of their time together to become fast friends.

But is Elan distracting Sunny or Sunny distracting Elan?

[hamishspence]

A weightlifter who focus in pure strength still will hava far more endurance than someone who doesn't do sport at all. Because, at the very least, he needs endurance to mantain that muscles working.

I tend to look it it this way - can a person be high STR and yet very bad at "marching" "holding their breath underwater" and so on?

IMO, yes they can.

Con is an abstraction - and some facets of that abstraction are compatible with the idea that "people exist with very high Str and very low Con". Max Str min Con is pushing it, but the general idea is sound.

Can one plausibly imagine a weightlifter-type who, after 18 seconds of full-speed running, is wheezing noticably and struggling to go on (represented by their having to make Con checks)? IMO, one can.

[Metastachydium]

But is Elan distracting Sunny or Sunny distracting Elan?

It's a net gain either way!

[Vikenlugaid]

I tend to look it it this way - can a person be high STR and yet very bad at "marching" "holding their breath underwater" and so on?

IMO, yes they can.

Con is an abstraction - and some facets of that abstraction are compatible with the idea that "people exist with very high Str and very low Con". Max Str min Con is pushing it, but the general idea is sound.

Can one plausibly imagine a weightlifter-type who, after 18 seconds of full-speed running, is wheezing noticably and struggling to go on (represented by their having to make Con checks)? IMO, one can.

But that weightlifter is heavy so when he run he needs to carry more weight that a normal person, that doesn't mean he has bad con at all, his endurance is at least decent, but his weight is high and is harder to run with it. He will have more con than someone who doesn't do sport at all, granted, maybe he can be 18 str and 10 con... But 3 con? He wouldn't lift any weight cause he just couldn't take the effort. You need a minimun in endurance to use high strength.

And the same for the opposite. A runner is high con... But he need strength too, he can be 18 con and maybe 10 str, ok, but 3 str is imposible, he needs a minimun, real life body is not that compartimented.

[mjasghar]

Irl is one thing. In fantasy though, low con high Str is feasible by non standard musculature or physiology. An example might be a insectoid race with soldier subrace that are there to kill in a swarm
Iirc it’s also applies to certain air elemental type beings. If you take Str as an abstraction you could also apply to races that do damage by special techniques or an inbuilt magical system
Glass golem might be an example.

[hamishspence]

But that weightlifter is heavy so when he run he needs to carry more weight that a normal person, that doesn't mean he has bad con at all

It does using D&D rules. Con determines how long you can run for, unencumbered (and excess body weight isn't counted).

Whether you're thin or plump, the rules say that if you start struggling after running for a fairly short time, you must be low Con.

As The Giant pointed out - Int 3 is still above mental disability.

I don't consider any of the characters in the entire comic to be "mentally handicapped." Thog is not smart compared to Roy, but he does not have an atypical neurology. He is capable of determining right from wrong, and chooses wrong consistently. I know people like to project this idea onto Thog that he's not responsible for his actions because he's dumb, but…he is responsible. We know he is because the orcs on the island are the same as him and don't murder people just for fun.

In D&D terms, anyone who has an Intelligence of 3 or higher is capable of determining right from wrong (because they have an alignment); speak, read, and write a language fluently; and generally looking after themselves on a daily basis while adventuring in a dangerous dungeon. This does not describe most real-world people with mental handicaps (to my knowledge). Which means the bulk of the spectrum of mental handicaps probably sits somewhere below 3 and above 2, because it's a system designed for action-adventure and it doesn't need more granularity than that. It doesn't want to have the conversation, and honestly, in this case, I'm inclined to agree. D&D is a system that only describes people within a certain range of mental ability, and OOTS follows suit.

and I would apply the same logic to the other stats. Con 3 is the lower limit at which you can adventure, Str 3 is the lower limit at which you can adventure - but a Con 3 person is not disabled, a Str 3 person is not disabled.

A STR 3 person is still capable of lifting 30 pounds overhead, still capable of lifting 60 pounds off the ground (albeit being slowed down to 5 ft per round "staggering pace").

[Vikenlugaid]

It does using D&D rules. Con determines how long you can run for, unencumbered (and excess body weight isn't counted).

Whether you're thin or plump, the rules say that if you start struggling after running for a fairly short time, you must be low Con.

As The Giant pointed out - Int 3 is still above mental disability.




and I would apply the same logic to the other stats. Con 3 is the lower limit at which you can adventure, Str 3 is the lower limit at which you can adventure - but a Con 3 person is not disabled, a Str 3 person is not disabled.

A STR 3 person is still capable of lifting 30 pounds overhead, still capable of lifting 60 pounds off the ground (albeit being slowed down to 5 ft per round "staggering pace").

But still, if you train to gain strength you gain constitution aswell, that's my point. Con 3 or str 3 is not disabled but is very low, any sportman should have at least 10 or so, if 3 is minimum.

And really, I don't give a damn for realism in a game system, and is imposible to make it realistic and still balanced.

[hamishspence]

Sports vary.

Some revolve around aerobic exercise, some revolve around anaerobic exercise, and some incorporate both.

As written, a sportsman whose sport revolves around anaerobic exercise, and incorporates very little aerobic exercise (such as weightlifting) would be expected to have a high Str, and could get away with a fairly low Con - but a sportsman whose sport revolves around aerobic exercise and incorporates very little anaerobic exercise (such as long-distance running) would be expected to have a high Con and could get away with very little Str.


I could easily see a marathon runner, with unusually scrawny arms, who is terrible at lifting weights over their head.
I could easily see the opposite for a weightlifter.

A person who does anaerobic exercise and avoids aerobic exercise, could build Str without building Con.
And vice versa for a person who does aerobic exercise and avoids anaerobic exercise.

[KorvinStarmast]

But is Elan distracting Sunny or Sunny distracting Elan?

Yes to both, I suspect.

[Vikenlugaid]

Sports vary.

Some revolve around aerobic exercise, some revolve around anaerobic exercise, and some incorporate both.

As written, a sportsman whose sport revolves around anaerobic exercise, and incorporates very little aerobic exercise (such as weightlifting) would be expected to have a high Str, and could get away with a fairly low Con - but a sportsman whose sport revolves around aerobic exercise and incorporates very little anaerobic exercise (such as long-distance running) would be expected to have a high Con and could get away with very little Str.


I could easily see a marathon runner, with unusually scrawny arms, who is terrible at lifting weights over their head.
I could easily see the opposite for a weightlifter.

A person who does anaerobic exercise and avoids aerobic exercise, could build Str without building Con.
And vice versa for a person who does aerobic exercise and avoids anaerobic exercise.

A person who does anaerobic exersise will still gain constitution aswell, and if he doesn't, then he won't go too far in his career XD cause he won't gain enough strength either. As i said, body trainning is not THAT compartimented, you can't train just one thing even if you want to focus on that thing.
And a weightlifter running still has more endurance than a guy who doesn't do sport at all, if not probably he couldn't even walk with all that body weight.

In fact, the "simple" biological process of creating muscles needs endurance to be effective. If you don't have endurance you can't even gain strength.

[hamishspence]

If you can have endurance without much muscle:

Marathon runners ditch both muscle and fat to specialize in being as small as possible.

I checked the Tokyo medalists in marathon swimming; Florian Wellbrock is 6'4" and 168 lb., Rasovszky Kristóf is 6'3" and 185 lb. while Gregorio Paltrinieri is also 6'3" and 159 lb.
Looks like endurance doen't require quite that much bulk and weight, after all.

then you can have muscle without much endurance.

As was pointed out, "very high endurance" people, in real life, are generally not "big and bulky": and, conversely "big and bulky" people can be lower in endurance than one might initially expect.

I think Ochul is likely to be 200 pound or close, he is a really really tough fighter, very highconstitution and probably high strength too, that means he is heavy, he probably is pure muscles.

Yeah. Everyone's heard of Navy SEALs right? Very few bodybuilders in their ranks . The people who make it tend to be very small, very wiry, very high endurance. The ability to run or march 20 miles counts for a lot more than the ability to bench press a piano. All that additional muscle mass requires food which is not always in plentiful supply on route marches. I guess what that equates to in D&D terms is very high constitution, middling strength score, say in the 11-14 range.

[Psyren]

I enjoyed the little dynamic of Haley being a little more on top her game than Vaarsuvius here. Makes sense for a rogue versus rogue showdown. And of course the ending sequence was super sweet. I hope Sunny and Elan take advantage of their time together to become fast friends.

Yeah, V going for a casual stroll just because they couldn't see an exit was a bit of hubris there. (I mean, the elf thing to detect secret doors isn't a guarantee.)

Well, yes. We’re looking for plot holes.

Ahh, truly a mentally demanding task

But is Elan distracting Sunny or Sunny distracting Elan?

Yes.

[The MunchKING]

But is Elan distracting Sunny or Sunny distracting Elan?

Elan is distracting Sunny.

By keeping the anti magic eye his way, V can cast her spells and Hailey can use her boots/magic gear.

[Riftwolf]

Okay but I totally just thought about wereseal soldiers now.

My friend you think too small! The 1st Royal Selkie Brigade is ready for inspection!

[Skull the Troll]

Great stories give rise to great games; very rarely do great games make great stories.

Tell that to Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Tell that to Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman. :)

The quality of their stories varied considerably. (But tip of the cap, they are/were successful authors).

[skim172]

Sure, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.

Ooh. I'm replying a bit late - but I think there might be a bulldozer coming for your house.

Hope you get this in time.



Also, do you have a towel?

[F.Harr]

Not so gullible.

Time for Roy! But that wouldn't be fun with Sirini. There's no way she'd trust him. Haley's the right ambassador.

But Roy trying has get by this thing has got to be entertaining. :)

[bunsen_h]

Yeah, V going for a casual stroll just because they couldn't see an exit was a bit of hubris there. (I mean, the elf thing to detect secret doors isn't a guarantee.)

I think that was a "failed WIS roll against getting too distracted by a riddle to multi-task properly", the bane of high-INT people.

[Hurkyl]

Yeah, V going for a casual stroll just because they couldn't see an exit was a bit of hubris there. (I mean, the elf thing to detect secret doors isn't a guarantee.)

To be fair, walking into a small, dark, enclosed space known to be inhabited by a high level rogue is rather contrary to a fragile mage's survival instincts. Fireball is the more natural instinct, but that would run contrary to their current priorities.

And sometimes, when you think you have control of a situation, it really does take some time to realize control has slipped away from you.

[Psyren]

To be fair, walking into a small, dark, enclosed space known to be inhabited by a high level rogue is rather contrary to a fragile mage's survival instincts. Fireball is the more natural instinct, but that would run contrary to their current priorities.

And sometimes, when you think you have control of a situation, it really does take some time to realize control has slipped away from you.

I'm not saying V should have Leeroy Jenkinsed after her, but he has numerous spells to deal with a fleeing character, many of which don't even have a reflex save.

[Hurkyl]

but he has numerous spells to deal with a fleeing character, many of which don't even have a reflex save.

It's a bit of a nitpick, but the idea she could be a "fleeing" character rather than, say, a "retreating to a corner" character doesn't seem to have dawned on V.

Sure, V was maybe unduly nonchalant about the maneuver, but that's the sort of thing I mean "not realizing control has slipped away from you".