A new Unearthed Arcana appears! College of Eloquence and Oath of Heroism paladins

[Rafaelfras]

Two classes, the bard and the paladin, discover new playtest possibilities this week. The bard receives a new Bardic College feature: the College of Eloquence. Additionally, the paladin gains a new Sacred Oath feature: the Oath of Heroism.


https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/d...entHeroics.pdf

[nickl_2000]

Let the celebrations and complaining begin!

Thanks, taking a look now.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I really like the mechanics of both!


Flavorwise, I find that both are iffy. Only because of people on the internet, though. Bard one is all about logic, speeches, oratory, and stuff like that. Played poorly, I worry that it's "Neckbeard, the subclass". Played well, it seems like an awesome diplomat class, and a way to actually have mechanical enforcement of a "peacemaker" character. They get Calm Emotions for free cha times per rest! And more that I won't babble about just now!

The paladin is about embracing the heroic destiny the gods have given you. You train your body, inspire others, and jump at the chance to challenge yourself. Played poorly I worry it's "Meathead jock the class" or "Toxic Masculinity paladin". Played well, I think it could be the ultimate heroic type, who is just super excited to have the chance to go on adventures and make the world a better place.

[Damon_Tor]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

...

[Jophiel]

I laughed that the first Oath of Heroism spell was Expeditious Retreat

I know you can also use the spell to move into combat but it still made me snort.

[Amechra]

College of Eloquence is awesome. Infectious Inspiration literally made my jaw drop (and then I noticed that you only get to keep the die if you failed your roll, but still).

[Reevh]

I'm confused about the Infectious Inspiration. The way I read that, starting at level 14 you can give someone a permanent +1d10 to all their Attack Rolls, Ability Checks, and Saving Throws, and also give it to others. And it goes to 1d12 starting at level 15. Seems sort of crazy strong. Like a permanent and turbo-charged Bless that doesn't even require concentration.

Edit: Oh, it's only when they fail. Still strong.

[Reevh]

Legendary Strike seems like it would synergize particularly strongly with divine smite.

[DeTess]

I like the mechanics on these, but the tenets of the oath of heroism seem odd to me. Most paladin oaths present some dos and don'ts, even if they are worded quite broadly. This oath only really says 'don't spend ASI's on feats or mental stats' though.

[stoutstien]

Well peerless athletic would make an interesting addition for a grapple/shoving build.

What's up with conjure volley?

[1Pirate]

Oath of Heroism doesn't have Heroism as an oath spell.

...

That was my first thought too. But I’ll take both of those spells over Heroism.

[J-H]

Mighty Deed is pretty strong. Living Myth is good for a once-per-day climactic battle.

Eloquence is kind of meh. I'd rather take one of the other options for Bard, although Calm Emotions is nice. This would be better as an NPC class.

[CheddarChampion]

Enter... The Diplomancer!

Looks like infectious inspiration can be chained from itself. Very good when inspiration isn't used up on a fail.

Undeniable logic seems fairly decent for offensive use, if a bit close to stepping on heightened spell's toes.

The hero seems like a good subclass for people that want to play a vanilla paladin without tying themselves to a cause/god.

Hero's mechanics could be turned back a bit.
Bonus action improved critical vs normal action sacred weapon?
Spell list has good spells across the board?
Mighty deed should start at a 10' range?
Glorious defense is two features in one - and two reactions in one?

Living myth is quite good, but then so are other paladin capstones. GWM away!

[Waterdeep Merch]

Two classes, the bard and the paladin, discover new playtest possibilities this week. The bard receives a new Bardic College feature: the College of Eloquence. Additionally, the paladin gains a new Sacred Oath feature: the Oath of Heroism.


https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/d...entHeroics.pdf

First- wow, they're really spoiling us with UA suddenly.

Also- I'm in love with both of these on a conceptual level. So much so that I'm probably ignoring that they're a bit OP, because I adore them. I've already offered the Heroism Oath to one of my players and he just bit.

[nickl_2000]

First- wow, they're really spoiling us with UA suddenly.

Also- I'm in love with both of these on a conceptual level. So much so that I'm probably ignoring that they're a bit OP, because I adore them. I've already offered the Heroism Oath to one of my players and he just bit.

I'm debating asking my Dragonheist DM if I can use Heroism. It is certainly fitting to the character thus far.

[Bloodcloud]

Undeniable logic attack option reminds me of the Chewbacca defense in South Park, even the part where one of the jurors head explode.

Otherwise, strong but doesn't appear too OP to me.

Oath of heroism... I'm less sure.
The spell list is straight weird (Expeditious retreat really? Bravely run away away!)
And then the crit-fishing... Hexblade paladin of heroism with elven accuracy would be straight nasty. But it is long to come fully online.

[Damon_Tor]

The barb subclass is probably going to pick up some hate, but I'm really enjoying the ability to make anyone understand you.

For example, this could be used to use Inspiring Leader on your Tiny Servants. See my "TSARs" post for why that could be extremely relevant.

The Oath of Heroism is tight. Legendary Strike is great. Mighty Deed is solid, and has great synergy with Mighty Deed. Glorious Defense is amazing.

[Daphne]

Undeniable Logic is too strong and makes the Sorcerer cries in the corner. At 6th level you can already use it 4/short rest, it's insane.

[jaappleton]

A quick note: I REALLY like how both of these have features that either debuff the enemy or buff the party. You get an option, you can choose. I always like more player agency.

Both are quite powerful, both in unique ways.

Pairing Heroism with two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack to synergize with their channel divinity and crit on a 19-20 (Be Half Orc!) would be sweet.

As a straight up Oath, no MC, it... It works. It seems kinda like Champion, but plugged in as a Paladin Oath. I think it certainly works, its fine, I don't think its super powerful or anything. Nice solid, fairly vanilla option. Nothing bad about it, everything is fairly useful.

Bard? WOW. The lv6 feature alone to imply DisAdv on their next save is... WOW. Not 'the next time you cast a spell', so if they have to make a recurring saving throw, it can be at DisAdv. That itself is.... WOW. Everything else on it is gravy, that's pretty amazing just by itself.

[pragma]

What's up with conjure volley?

I read this as an attempt to make "Hercules: The Subclass," and shooting a ton of arrows fits my mental image of a Greek demigod hero.

Oath of Heroism seems balanced and reasonably fun to me: Mighty Deed is pretty good, but it replaces aura upgrades. Spell list is a bit weak, but channel divinity is strong. It's a wash. (Though crit-fishing with elven accuracy seems inevitable given the easy access to expanded crit range.)

College of Eloquence seems off the walls bonkers to me. Granting disadvantage on a save with a bonus action means you're a one-stop crowd control shop.

[NNescio]

The paladin is about embracing the heroic destiny the gods have given you. You train your body, inspire others, and jump at the chance to challenge yourself. Played poorly I worry it's "Meathead jock the class" or "Toxic Masculinity paladin". Played well, I think it could be the ultimate heroic type, who is just super excited to have the chance to go on adventures and make the world a better place.

DM: You skipped leg day? *gasp* YOU FALL!

Undeniable logic attack option reminds me of the Chewbacca defense in South Park, even the part where one of the jurors head explode.

Undeniable Logic is too strong and makes the Sorcerer cries in the corner. At 6th level you can already use it 4/short rest, it's insane.

Bard: Strawman argument! Appeal to authority! Loki's wager!
Orc: Wuh?
Bard: HOLD PERSON!

Bard: Correlation does not imply causation! Post hoc ergo propter hoc! Stormwind fallacy!
BBEG: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you—
Bard: HIDEOUS LAUGHTER!

[jaappleton]

I need to explicitly state something on the Bard's lv6 feature:

"The creature takes psychic damage equal to
the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration
die, and the creature must succeed on an
Intelligence saving throw against your spell
save DC or have disadvantage on the next
saving throw it makes before the end of your
next turn"

C&P'd directly from the article.

.....it doesn't apply only to spells. So if you have an item that forces a save, it works with it.

Like if you're playing Curse of Strahd and the Cleric has the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind to paralyze a Vampire, you can use this to force DisAdv on their save. And it also works on recurring saving throws, it doesn't have to be against the initial save.

This Bard absolutely and utterly craps on Heightened Spell metamagic and its not even a question.

[JumboWheat01]

I'm rather fond of the bard option. It emphasizes what a bard is known for, using their voice, and tweaks it for both for non-combat uses with early features and combat uses in later features. Undeniable Logic is great if you have a save-heavy caster in your party, like an enchanter or even just need a heavy evocation to hit hard, or is great if your party is going against an enemy that likes to throw save-requiring spells out against you. And Infectious Inspiration is great for making your Bardic Inspiration go the extra distance since you have two other features that are competing with the limited resource.

The paladin option's not bad either, but the bard option just really does it for me.

[Nidgit]

Eloquence seems maybe a little underpowered but otherwise fine. Infectious Inspiration is clearly really good but Undeniable Logic feels like a much better Vicious Mockery as a bonus action and that's not particularly appealing to me.

Heroism is mostly okay, but Glorious Defense is really, really strong without any modifiers on how many times you can use it. The spell list doesn't really feel right to me, and the capstone is a but underwhelming, but most of it is fine. The flavor is missing the key point that your actions don't just need renown but also need to cause a reaction in your audience, whether awe or fear.

[CheddarChampion]

I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
Much better than I initially thought.

[jaappleton]

I just realized that mighty deed can be used for both types in one go.
You choose up to Cha mod creatures, but the effects don't have to be the same!
Much better than I initially thought.

Read this line:

All the chosen creatures are
affected by one of the following effects of your
choice:

I read that as one, not either.

[Wasp]

I feel Living Myth sounds very fun fo that one time when you play a level 20 paladin

[CheddarChampion]

Read this line:

All the chosen creatures are
affected by one of the following effects of your
choice:

I read that as one, not either.

I see now how it's ambiguous.
The fluff suggests it can do both but I don't claim that it proves it:

Your actions on the battlefield can
supernaturally bolster your allies and
demoralize your enemies.

And not Or.
Again, I don't claim this is proof.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Anyone else look at the Heroism Paladin and hear "I Need A Hero"? Cast Expeditious Retreat, CD for Peerless Athlete, Mighty Deed as you mulch through enemies:

"He's got to be strong, and he's got to be fast, and he's got to be fresh from the fight."

[Slayn82]

I think Eloquence is on par with Lore. At lvl 3, you get the equivalent to two spells, for very specific niche, but not using your spellcasting resource.

At lvl 6, undeniable logic gives you two solid uses for the Bardic Inspiration for those situations when talking isn't really an option. Even the Healing bonus action is useful so you can recover an ally on death saves and still cast an spell on your turn. Something couldn't be done with Healing Word.