Sorcerers and School Specialization

[kentma57]

Should a sorcerers be able to specialize in a school?
If they can or not I have ben thinking of a new tariant,

Obsesive School Specialization, after normal school specialization (baring two schools to gain bonuses in a different one) that gives you one extra spell per level from that school, you may bar three more schools to gain a second extra spell per level in that school.

I thought of this while working on Itachi, a obsesive evocation user, and his familiar crispy the bunny.

[raichi]

if you ask me i don't really think a sorcerer should be able to specialize, in a sence they already are specialized, they're getting more spells per day than a wizard for a reason, they have and extremely limited spell selection. Sure they get 9 cantrips but that doesn't count... theres not that many useful cantrips. so yeah no.

[Nostri]

I'd say that a sorcerer should be able to specialize if they really want to. In game it'd probably just mean that they have more talent in one area and those other tricks (spells from their prohibited school) they just never could get...

As for the obsessive specialization ability, there's already something like that in PHBII I believe and IIRC you only need to give up one additional school (so you end up with a total of three prohibited schools) instead of an additional three.

[Tempest Fennac]

Considering how few spells Sorcerers get, I wouldn't class barring 2 schools to be that much of a forfeit for an extra spell (I'd say that if you wanted a "specialised" Sorcerer, the best way to do it would just be to take a lot of spells in the area which your interested in).

[kentma57]

To Nostri, what is IIRC and I will look through the PHBII

[Valairn]

IIRC (If I Recall Correctly)

[Neftren]

Considering how few spells Sorcerers get, I wouldn't class barring 2 schools to be that much of a forfeit for an extra spell (I'd say that if you wanted a "specialised" Sorcerer, the best way to do it would just be to take a lot of spells in the area which your interested in).

Problem being is that you don't get the benefits of School Specialization. I mean, I'd love to go all divination, and get extra Div Spells and just drop Necro altogether, since I just hate Necro. Or maybe Evoc or Abjur for cool stuff, and drop Necro and either Trans (Yes, Transmutation, I don't hate it, I don't love it) and Necro, or Conj and Necro... maybe not so much the second option... Phantom Steeds are helpful, but they're a waste of a spell slot each day...

[FireSpark]

To Nostri, what is IIRC and I will look through the PHBII

Actually the variant in question is in Complete Mage, and applies to wizards.

[Neftren]

I think the main reason WotC did not give Sorcerers School Specialization was to prevent them from getting extra Fireballs per day, so that all they'd have to do is just spontaneously cast say, a 10d6 Fireball for 7 times a day. So, 7 rounds of 10d6 = 70d6 damage, which basically averages out to 245 damage...

[AugustNights]

I once made up a sort of specialization for Sorcerer's called the Marveled Sorcerer.

It goes something like this.

Marveled Sorcerer (Variant of Sorcerer)

As wizards can spend all of their lives specializing is certain schools of magic, there are some Sorcerer's who are born with some sort of strange tie to the same individual schools. They, the few and feared, are considered Marvels among their brethren. These marvels occur once in every thousand Sorcerers, or so. With this great power comes great a hindrance, or so says nature's balance. As such it seems that they cannot get in touch with many spells that do not fall within their born category.

Many of these Sorcerer's feel either inept, or incredibly powerful, due to their lack of ability to choose what school they specialize in. As fate and irony would have it, there have been lawful-good Sorcerer's who are tied cruelly to the darker ends of Necromancy spells. Other rumors speak of power hungry Sorcerer's who excel in nothing but Abjuration and cannot cast Envocations, Transmutations, Necromatics or Conjurations [A player may choose his schools, or roll them at Random at the DM's discretion]

Unlike Specialist Wizards, the Marveled Sorcerer falters at four schools rather than two. However Divination may be one of these schools.

A Marveled Sorcerer gains a +2 inherit bonus on Spellcraft checks involving her/his chosen school, and on saves versus spells and spell-like abilities of their chosen school.

Rather than cast one more spell per day of their marveled school, a Marveled Sorcerer is treated as knowing every spell in their Marveled School. All spells with their School are on their spells Known list. [Mechanically a Marveled Sorcerer knows up to level 9 spells at level 1, but cannot cast them.]
Subtract two spells known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level) These are non-marveled, non-restricted spells known only).

A Marveled Sorcerer is not only restricted from learning spells of their restricted schools, they also receive an inherit -5 to spellcraft checks involving schools they are restricted from.

A Marveled Sorcerer is often referred by his school as a specialist wizard is, only with the world Marvel in front of it.((I.e. Larry the Marvel Illusionist))

[kentma57]

Nice........

[ArmorArmadillo]

Because wizards can learn and prepare nearly every spell in a given school, specialization bars access to a great number of spells.

Sorcerers know so few spells that barring certain schools does not pose enough of a penalty in exchange for the benefit granted.

The average sorcerer could likely give up two schools without changing their spell list at all.

[Neftren]

Rather than cast one more spell per day of their marveled school, a Marveled Sorcerer is treated as knowing every spell in their Marveled School. All spells with their School are on their spells Known list. [Mechanically a Marveled Sorcerer knows up to level 9 spells at level 1, but cannot cast them.]
Subtract two spells known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level) These are non-marveled, non-restricted spells known only).

So basically, the Sorcerer becomes an effective Wizard for that school of magic, except restricted to the spell level he can cast at X level?

[AstralFire]

Because wizards can learn and prepare nearly every spell in a given school, specialization bars access to a great number of spells.

Sorcerers know so few spells that barring certain schools does not pose enough of a penalty in exchange for the benefit granted.

The average sorcerer could likely give up two schools without changing their spell list at all.

On the other hand, the Sorcerer would actually have something to show for itself next to the Wizard.

Though I suppose that that's not the way to do it.

[ArmorArmadillo]

On the other hand, the Sorcerer would actually have something to show for itself next to the Wizard.

Though I suppose that that's not the way to do it.

Well, wizards are overpowered, they shouldn't be the standard to base class balance on.

Moreover, it isn't so much the problem that this would be too strong or unbalancing, it's that the "cost" for the benefit isn't really a cost, so I don't think this would achieve what the feature would be attempting to.

[Neftren]

Or, maybe since spontaneous spellcasters can't metamagic their spells without wasting a full freaking round action, how about:

Spoiler

Show

While Wizards may devote their time to learning spells, Sorcerers often take the easy way out with their knack for spellcasting, although they suffer for it from lack of known spells. Several sorcerers may instead choose to devote their raw magical talent to a higher source of learning by devoting themselves to a single school of magic.

Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, Transmutation and Universal. These are the eight traditional schools of magic. Perhaps a sorcerer may disagree with the violation of the dead, or simply prefers to protect others from harm.

A Specialized Sorcerer learns all the spells within the chosen school, although he may not actually cast them until the appropriate level. Such devotion to a school will reciprocate in a loss for the others. As such, a Specialized Sorcerer is barred from four other schools, representing the loss of time spent experimenting in such schools.

While this may seem to be a steep penalty, a Specialized Sorcerer may also cast two additional spells per day provided they are from the specialized school. The Specialized Sorcerer may also use Metamagic Feats with Spontaneous Spells without lengthening the casting duration to one full round action.

Rough rewrite but adding a metamagic clause to it.

[AstralFire]

Well, wizards are overpowered, they shouldn't be the standard to base class balance on.

Moreover, it isn't so much the problem that this would be too strong or unbalancing, it's that the "cost" for the benefit isn't really a cost, so I don't think this would achieve what the feature would be attempting to.

Fair enough to the former, and that's what I meant (to the latter.)

Or, maybe since spontaneous spellcasters can't metamagic their spells without wasting a full freaking round action, how about:

Spoiler

Show

While Wizards may devote their time to learning spells, Sorcerers often take the easy way out with their knack for spellcasting, although they suffer for it from lack of known spells. Several sorcerers may instead choose to devote their raw magical talent to a higher source of learning by devoting themselves to a single school of magic.

Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, Transmutation and Universal. These are the eight traditional schools of magic. Perhaps a sorcerer may disagree with the violation of the dead, or simply prefers to protect others from harm.

A Specialized Sorcerer learns all the spells within the chosen school, although he may not actually cast them until the appropriate level. Such devotion to a school will reciprocate in a loss for the others. As such, a Specialized Sorcerer is barred from four other schools, representing the loss of time spent experimenting in such schools.

While this may seem to be a steep penalty, a Specialized Sorcerer may also cast two additional spells per day provided they are from the specialized school. The Specialized Sorcerer may also use Metamagic Feats with Spontaneous Spells without lengthening the casting duration to one full round action.

Rough rewrite but adding a metamagic clause to it.

Personally? I'd just add +1 Caster Level and Metamagicky to favored, neutral to the neutral, -2 Caster Level and no Quickening to disliked, and be done with it.

...Yes, I know by RAW and WotC fiat a Sorcerer can't use Quicken. That doesn't mean that that rule isn't incredibly dumb and shouldn't universally ignored. >_>

[Neftren]

Actually they can, if they take the Sudden Quicken Feat or the Prepared Spell Feat then the Quicken Feat. Something along the lines lets a Sorcerer quicken spells without a penalty, at the cost of a few feats.

[AstralFire]

Actually they can, if they take the Sudden Quicken Feat or the Prepared Spell Feat then the Quicken Feat. Something along the lines lets a Sorcerer quicken spells without a penalty, at the cost of a few feats.

For a class that gets none and is usually expected to PrC out ASAP, that's basically the same thing.

[Chronos]

Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, Transmutation and Universal. These are the eight traditional schools of magic.

Actually, those are seven schools of magic, and one non-school for those few spells that don't fit into one of them. You forgot illusion.

[Triaxx]

Why would you PrC out of the most powerful class in the game? A wizard has to pick which ones he thinks he's going to use. I can decide what I want to use on the fly.

That said, being able to specialize in say evocation, would be awesome. While I'm not sure that gaining an extra spell per level is particularly useful, I'd prefer extra damage. That's what the Sorceror should be doing anyway. A wizard can stand around buffing the fighters, I can start dropping death on them as they charge the front line. My nickname is always Mr. Magic Missile. That's my opening move, spread across the highest AC targets. Being able to add damage onto that would be tremendously advantageous.

[Neftren]

Actually, those are seven schools of magic, and one non-school for those few spells that don't fit into one of them. You forgot illusion.

Yeah I realized that 10 minutes ago :P.

[Neftren]

While Wizards may devote their time to learning spells, Sorcerers often take the easy way out with their knack for spellcasting, although they suffer for it from lack of known spells. Several sorcerers may instead choose to devote their raw magical talent to a higher source of learning by devoting themselves to a single school of magic.

Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation along with the Universal School of Magic. These are the nine traditional schools of magic. Perhaps a sorcerer may disagree with the violation of the dead, or simply prefers to protect others from harm. He could have a knack for calling creatures to him, or simply be able to enthrall an audience effortlessly.

A Specialized Sorcerer learns all the spells within the chosen school, although he may not actually cast them until the appropriate level. His caster level is also considered one level higher, and he may cast spells as if he were that level. Such devotion to a school will reciprocate in a loss for the others. As such, a Specialized Sorcerer is barred from four other schools, representing the loss of time spent experimenting in such schools.

While this may seem to be a steep penalty, a Specialized Sorcerer may also cast two additional spells per day provided they are from the specialized school. The Specialized Sorcerer may also use Metamagic Feats with Spontaneous Spells without lengthening the casting duration to one full round action.

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Whaddya think for balance issues?