Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Cheesegear]

As for your rule, its a good compromise to let people play with their toys, though personally I'd just copy the old box set and have damage added all at once at the end of the battleround regardless of unit.

Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with Kill Team, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's second choice - and so on.

That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.

How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.

[Avaris]

Last time I played Apocalypse a bigger game of 40K, we played I Go, You Go. This prevented players/teams from having turns that lasted 20-30 minutes with zero interaction from the other side. It also meant that people - for the most part - got to use their toys, because everyone just chose to shoot with their biggest/best unit first. Similar with Kill Team, it also gives a tactical choices to be made because if the best thing on the board blows its load in the first Shooting selection, well the opponent doesn't need to shoot it. Actually, the play with your first choice, is to shoot the opponent's second choice - and so on.

That's the only change that needs to be made in Apocalypse big games of 40K. You want to reduce wait times for the opposing side to as little as possible. If you can find a way to do that, then there's no problem.

How do you keep the other player/team engaged, when a player's turn takes upwards of 20 minutes? ...That's easy. You don't let a player have a 20-minute turn with no engagement from the opponent.

Did you do that in every phase? Can definitely see the advantage for shooting, but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement. How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?

(Assuming that by ‘I go you go’ you mean alternating activations within a phase. ‘I go, you go’ is typically assumed to mean the current turn order of 40k!)

I personally feel the two big innovations in Apocalypse were alternating activations, which can be simulated as above, and moving damage to end of turn. In the past I’ve experimented with shunting damage to end of turn in normal 40k (and as 9mm suggests), but it’s a lot of extra book-keeping, so Cheesegear’s solution of alternating activations in some or all phases should work well enough.

[Cheesegear]

but suspect it would slow down rather than speed up movement.

I don't see how it could.

How did you handle the combined turn meaning that melee units fight half as much?

...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.


As always, the only thing that ever slows the game down is players not knowing what to do when it's their turn to do something. Your opponent's turn is for thinking. Your turn is for doing.

[Avaris]

I don't see how it could.

Movement as a phase normally only requires the active player to do stuff: part of the reason shooting and combat benefit from alternating is that the other player still needs some input and interaction. Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it: if you alternate it it is being constantly interrupted! Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up.

...We didn't care? Because Fighting half as much makes the game go faster. And when you've got 5K+ on the board, anything that makes the game go faster is a good thing.

Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted. But as you say, speeds things up, so possibly a reasonable tradeoff!

[Cheesegear]

Normal play you can quickly move from moving one unit to moving the unit next to it

Normal play your opponent can quickly move their unit the instant you finish moving yours. And you can instantly start moving your units they finish moving theirs.

The question is; Are you paying attention? Whilst your opponent is moving their 5, 10-model unit...What are you doing? Have you got your thumb up your butt or are you already making decisions in your head? There shouldn't be any delay. I guess that's something you learn when you play with chess clocks. Once you have that skill, you use it even where there aren't chess clocks.

What is the time between your opponent taking their hand off their tenth model, and you moving your first model? If it's more than a couple of seconds, somebody is slow-playing.

Basically; If the light turns green, how long until the car behind you honks their horn?

Maybe not enough to be noticeable in any one action, but little added bits of time might add up.

Having played the mechanic three times...The only slow parts of the game are players. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you're already moving your first model before they've finished their entire unit. You know where the unit is, you know how far it can move, and you know how unit coherency works. Once your opponent moves the first model of the unit, there's only so much the rest of the unit can do. So as long as you aren't interfering with your opponent's movement, you can probably move your unit, too at the same time - especially if it's a single-model Character.

Melee units fighting half as much essentially halves their theoretical damage output over the course of the game, potentially making them overcosted.

On a 12x8' board melee units are already overcosted.

[Adrastos42]

I'm planning the shop's annual public Apocalypse game. What do we think of this rule (given that I'm running it as a giant 40k game, not using the 2019 box set that they promptly stopped supporting)?



That's the big thing, but I'd appreciate feedback on the format in general, found here.

I've not actually played any big games in the current edition so I don't feel qualified to comment on specifics, but this seems reasonable to me?

The Titanic Endurance rule is definitely a good call, having damage applied at the end of a turn so your big centrepiece models get at least a brief time to shine before being shot off the table was one of my favourite changes from the 2019 apocalypse (RIP). I did also really like the risk/reward mechanic of damage not being calculated (or saves not being rolled, or something, can't remember exactly) until the end of the turn, so you had to risk overkill to be sure the Hierophant was actually going down, but that's more of an ask to implement in a separate ruleset.

You've preempted my other suggestion with the silence the big guns mission- my favourite bit of silliness in apocalypse, especially multi-table games, is actually getting to use the full range of your artillery (or hunter-killer missiles back when they had unlimited range) to target something on the other side of the room. Building it into a mission with specific artillery is probably a much better implementation as it lets everyone get in on the fun, not just the Guard player who brought five Basilisks:D

[Renegade Paladin]

I mean, since the Imperial side is on offense, it's going to be five Basilisks. But the Counterbattery Fire rule is there to at least make it somewhat sporting. We have a terrain piece converted out of a dollar store pirate base toy; it's a giant skull shaped rock with a big cannon poking out one eye. I've scrawled it with Orky graffiti and wrote this datasheet for it, and the defenders will get it as part of their setup to make sure they have at least one suitable thing.

[Lord Torath]

My son's excited about the new Imperial Guard infantry models. He plans to turn his existing ones into a PDF force and use the newer ones for his IG army. Except for the sentinels. He bought a bunch of the old ones since he doesn't like the newer ones.

He wants the new Rogal Dorn tank, and is again amazed at how big his Baneblade is compared to a Leman Russ...

[Easy e]

How mad is Leman Russ that Dorn's tank is bigger?

[Wraith]

Could be worse; the Ferrus Mannus tank is about the same size, except that it's had the turret removed from the top.....

[Renegade Paladin]

So. New detachment just dropped.

[Hootman]

Am I mistaken, or does this detachment make all other detachment types pointless? With the exception of Patrols and Super Heavy Auxiliaries, I guess it would be?

It's been a long time since I had to remember how detachments worked, but I've been on a model-building kick all week pretty much out of nowhere, so maybe it'll matter in the not-too-distant future...

[Renegade Paladin]

Am I mistaken, or does this detachment make all other detachment types pointless? With the exception of Patrols and Super Heavy Auxiliaries, I guess it would be?

It's been a long time since I had to remember how detachments worked, but I've been on a model-building kick all week pretty much out of nowhere, so maybe it'll matter in the not-too-distant future...

Pretty much, yeah. It especially renders the Superheavy Detachment obsolete; why pay 6CP when you can toss in one HQ and pay 0?

[Wraith]

From what I can remember, you can't make a Patrol Detachment (which allows you a minimum of 1 compulsory unit rather than 3) or a Brigade Detachment (Up to 5 HQ and up to 8 Elites), but frankly I don't think I've ever seen anyone use the latter so it's hardly going to matter. Technically you can't run a Fortification Network (1 compulsory Fortification) either, but then that would only be relevant if you wanted to run a Patrol + Fort Net at the same time.

Looks like this is the "to hell with it, just bring whatever you like" meta. Unless you're playing as Custodes or Knights of course, in which case you might struggle to get 3 compulsory units in small-ish games but I imagine it could be done.

[DaedalusMkV]

Pretty much, yeah. It especially renders the Superheavy Detachment obsolete; why pay 6CP when you can toss in one HQ and pay 0?

Amusingly, it also essentially renders another rule they're introducing in the same book obsolete. Why pay CP to take more of units that are limited per Detachment... When you can just take two or three 0 CP Detachments with basically no restrictions instead?

Were you planning on taking at least 9 non-HQ units? Yes, because every army does that? Congrats, just take whatever. Restrictions can all just go away. They probably served no purpose anyways.

[Renegade Paladin]

Assuming you're allowed to take more than one of these. The talk of specific allied detachments suggests that detachment mixes are going to be far more prescriptive to make up for the freedom of this detachment type.

Edit: In fact, it specifically says so.

Many powerful leaders can only be taken once per Detachment – and with only the one Arks of Omen Detachment available, you’d be unable to take more.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

So is this the last-gasp "why bother pretending to care about balance" stage of 9th?

[Blackhawk748]

So is this the last-gasp "why bother pretending to care about balance" stage of 9th?

9th had a stage where that wasn't the norm?

[DaedalusMkV]

9th had a stage where that wasn't the norm?

No, they've been pretending to care about balance the entire time - see the frequent balance dataslates and repeated extremely early nerf cycle for every codex release ever.

Pretending to care isn't the same as caring, but they did pretend. If they actually cared maybe we wouldn't have needed day-1 (or sooner!) nerfs to 4 codecies in six months and inevitable massive nerfs to every codex release overtime, but they very much went through the motions.

Not like the second half of 7e, where they both didn't care and didn't pretend. Or the last year or so of 8e...

[Renegade Paladin]

We don't know the full context of the rules, though it does seem like this allows you to just stack up power units without sacrificing CP. With command points already drastically curtailed, though, I'm not sure how big of a deal that's going to be; for what used to require a Vanguard or similar to pull off you'll still start with 4CP instead of the 9 that you'd have had pre-Nephilim.

[Mordokai]

I want to preface this by saying that I know nothing about tabletop. I am, however, an avid reader of Black Library. Currently about halfway through Horus Heresy, so I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the topic.

So with all that in mind, my question is... will we finally see a new loyalist primarch drop in the new edition? Will Lion finally wake up? Or Russ get back from Eye of Terror? Vulkan getting back into the game? Or Khagan finally getting tired of kicking drukhari ass?

Is Imperium effed up to the point GW will finally consider giving Guilliman some much-needed help?

[Wraith]

At some point? Yes, almost certainly. After everything they have put into the Siege of Terra cycle, and the great shifts in the lore of the 42nd millennium following the Great Rift, they would be mad not to.

As to which one? And when? No idea. It's been rumoured ever since the second Traitor Primarch miniature came out because the sides 'needed to be equal', and now the Traitors are up to 3-to-1 (Magnus, Mortarion, and recently Angron) so...?

The current rumour is that it was going to be the Lion, however earlier today Primaris Azrael was announced so there may-or-may-not be a further announcement for this little arc and they'll move on to the next one?

[LeSwordfish]

I think what we're seeing now is the start of a run up to 10th edition, which some rumours suggest will be Angels Of Death vs Tyranids. I think the Lion as part of that seems reasonably feasible. (I'm also hoping for the Sanguinor to be beefed up to primarch grade to fill that role for the Blood Angels).

[Mordokai]

General consensus seems to go towards Lion. You know, him being the best strategist and most offense-oriented, he would be a perfect match to Roboute's more administrative side. There seems to be a lot of guessing if the new civil war is not in the making.

*cough* Imperium Secundus *cough*

Personally, I think even GW wouldn't be that petty. From a practical standpoint, another civil war would sink IoM at this point. Lion may be paranoid, but he is also intelligent enough he would quickly surmise that.

So is he the next primarch to come up? Possibly. Likely even, I would say. But from an emotional standpoint... I would like to see Vulkan or Jaghatai. Both would go a long way towards alleviating some of that ultra-depression Roboute is feeling and they are no slouches when it comes to combat.

[LeSwordfish]

I think we're extremely unlikely to see anyone except Lion or Russ any time soon. The others are just too niche, tied to second-tier legions.

[Wraith]

Many people were predicting Leman Russ during one of the last big campaign books - War Zone Stygius, which was Magnus vs the Space Wolves - but it didn't come to pass, and there hasn't been a big equivalent for the Blood Angels so they don't have the 'build up' for such a massive release as Sanguinius Reborn.

If there's a Primarch actually coming out imminently then the Lion is the logical choice, but that's still a pretty big 'if'.

[Lord Torath]

The current rumour is that it was going to be the Lion, however earlier today Primaris Azrael was announced so there may-or-may-not be a further announcement for this little arc and they'll move on to the next one?

So... bets on the first named marine character to not survive the Primaris process?

[Mordokai]

So... bets on the first named marine character to not survive the Primaris process?

Has Grimnar crossed the Rubicon already?

[lord_khaine]

Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?

[snowblizz]

Urg are they now making existing marines Primaris?
Is the entire primaris circus just an excuse for making Marines bigger and shinier?

Yes, to force you to buy new Space Marines.

And when you have all done that it's Primaris Primarises.