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2010-08-30, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2004
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- In eternity.
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[3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
In 3.5, it was elementals, oozes, undead, constructs, deathless, and plants. In Pathfinder, it's elementals and oozes. (Deathless haven't been updated.) There are other ways to become crit immune, but I ask which creature types should always be crit immune.
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2010-08-30, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Undead and constructs indeed should not be. Both of them have points of structural weakness that one could hit for, as they say in the vernacular, massive damage.
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2010-08-30, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Minnesota
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Oozes for sure, methinks. Elementals, maybe.
Plants, probably not. Cut roots, or...whatever.Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2010-08-30, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I agree that only elementals and oozes should be given crit immunity.
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2010-08-30, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Yeah. Anything with a non-homogeneous anatomy is likely vulnerable to critical hits.
Oozes and Elementals are both made of the same stuff all the way through. Beyond that... Not sure there is much of anything.
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2010-08-30, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
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- Boston, MA
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I don't know if undead in general should or should not be. But definitely some undead should not be. Since vampires are immune to criticals it is essentially not possible to stake a vampire in the heart. One houserule I've seen for this is vampires are subject to crits only from wooden piercing weapons.
My homebrew:
Spoiler
Completed:
ToB disciplines:
The Narrow Bridge
The Broken Blade
Prestige classess:
Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish
Worthwhile links:
Age of Warriors
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2010-08-30, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
If a vampire is vulnerable to HP damage, which he is, I see no reason why he can't be critted. He relies on the integrity of his body to be able to move and such. Damage to a joint would impair him--such a hit would be a critical.
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2010-08-30, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I've got to go with the only Elementals and Oozes make sense. Generally big magical robots have some weak spot (just look at Talos from Greek myth and his Achilles' heel... except he was killed by a group that included Achilles' dad). Undead rely on structural integrity, and vampires can be head shot just as well as anything else (if any undead are questionable it is the incorporeal forms and maybe liches).
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-08-30, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I was thinking of the incorporeals myself, yeah. Liches too. But, again, a Lich body can be hurt, killed. Therefore, it can likely be hurt MORE with a well aimed shot.
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2010-08-30, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Agreed. The whole idea of a crit is that there is some vulnerable spot you can target for significantly more damage. This concept works for almost everything.
Oozes, elementals, perhaps certain types of plants or swarms...in general, just those things that do not have discernable anatomy.
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2010-08-30, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Yeah I'm rather on the fence about liches. There body is held together mostly by magic (and even can be reconstituted entirely by it). A skeleton's body is held together by relatively weak (and simple) magic compared to that holding a lich's together so I'd leave the question mark for liches (and their silly phylacteries) but it's one that I wouldn't be ready to push all the way into either side.
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-08-30, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
"It can be hurt, therefore it can be hurt more" shouldn't be the underlying logic, otherwise anything with hitpoints could be critted. Instead, something with a completely homogeneous body, like an ooze, would not be critted.
Crits would apply, basically, to anything with a heterogeneous form. Joins? crit! Different parts serving different functions? CRIT
Only oozes would be immune.
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2010-08-30, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Okay, well, I missed some steps there, yeah. Namely, it has discernible features, points where the physical body does the job, not the animating magic.
For an elemental or an ooze, the entire body is composed of the same substance. An elemental may take humanoid shape, but it doesn't have a humanoid form. It has no bones, no joints. And ooze is similarly amorphous.
In the case of a lich, it is very specifically a skeleton, and does act as if it were one. Now, it's held together by magic rather than ligament, but that's not really a big thing.
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2010-08-30, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Yup- plants have stems which can be severed. And some elemental creatures- magmins, for example, or thoqquas, have a more "natural" physical form than convential elementals.
If you're playing 4E, even oozes can be critted- if you think of them as amoeba-like, this could be a hit to the nucleus.Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-08-30 at 04:24 PM.
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2010-08-30, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
You know, one could argue crits for elementals and oozes, too.
You damage them by... hacking off parts, I imagine, right? A Crit would be a lucky blow that manages to hack off more than usual, dealing more damage.
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2010-08-30, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Oozes have always played a role more likened to that of primitive fungi: They're actually a colony of identical cells put together to better obtain FOOD. Mostly they're all independent of each other so separating them won't do much.
That is just the normal dice roll's variance.Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-08-30 at 04:27 PM.
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2010-08-30, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2010-08-30, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I'd say Oozes, Elementals, and Incorporial Undead. Incorps make sense in the same manner as Oozes and Elementals. They are relatively homogenous. A Shadow is competely made up of animated shadow-stuff, negative energy, and a single minded desire to drain the life force from living creatures.
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2010-08-30, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Sounds about right to me.
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2010-08-30, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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2010-08-30, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- Midwest, not Middle East
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Everything should be crittable. Sure, oozes don't have an anatomy that you or I can discern, but they can still surge forward at the wrong time and lean in to your attack, or otherwise you get extra lucky in your attack. Hit points are abstract anyway, why should crits require landing a blow somewhere special?
This would streamline the game very slightly, because you would no longer have to ask "can I crit this?" Rogues will still have trouble with oozes and elementals because they are difficult to flank and often have extra senses which make them difficult to surprise. I'm not even a first level rogue, its plausible that such a skilled individual has knowledge we lack and can therefore strike even seemingly formless creatures for extra damage.
tl;dr Mechanically it's not an issue to let everything be crittable and there are minor benefits.
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2010-08-30, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
One could justify the idea that even joint shots to a corporeal undead wouldn't be critical with this idea:
They don't need the joints. After all, what's holding these bones in place at all? Magic. So suddenly there's a gap, big deal. The reason they're killable at all is that even if they can continue to function with 90% of their body literally missing, they pretty much cease to be a threat.
It's sort of one of those alternate concepts for zombies: You can't kill them, period. Not even with a headshot. But a quivering pile of fleshy goo on the floor isn't going to hurt anybody, and is functionally "dead." Same principle with DnD undead. They're not technically gone, but they're functionally harmless.
Of course, the Fridge Horror of And I Must Scream is just a bonus.Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 04:45 PM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-08-30, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
The fact that vorpal swords don't work on most types of undead (exception: vampires, it calls them out, at least in 3.0) does lend credence to a head shot not doing anything to a D&D zombie.
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-08-30, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
I was trying to draw a parallel to zombie movies, not DnD-flavored zombies.
Because crits aren't "hitting extra hard." Rolling high is "hitting extra hard." Crits are "hits somewhere where the damage matters more."
Which for me means it would make sense if instead of the +whateverd6 rogues get for Sneak Attacking, they just autocrit. Because it's doing the same thing, just on purpose.Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 04:48 PM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-08-30, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
D&D flavored zombies definitely work differently than standard movie-types. The lack of the headshot kill, fire/etc being effective, and so forth.
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2010-08-30, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- Ebonwood
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY
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2010-08-30, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Right. I was just elaborating a bit on the concept, as it's something that's somewhat interesting.
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2010-08-30, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Well, in that case (for a skeleton) striking at the weak points in the bones themselves, where they are thinner or more delicate, constitutes a vulnerability. With pretty much anything that has distinct parts and is destructible at all, there are places to hit it that are more damaging than others.
Which is more or less how Backstabbing worked in earlier editions - double damage, with the multiplier increasing with higher levels. I do like the 3.x implementation, though, in that a sneak-attacker can disregard the base damage on their weapon and actually do significant harm with a dagger.
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2010-08-30, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Erutnevda
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
Peanut Half-Dragon Necromancer by Kurien.
Current Projects:
Group: The Harrowing Halloween Harvest of Horror Part 2
Personal Silliness: Vote what Soulknife "Fix"/Inspired Class Should I make??? Past Work Expansion Caricatures.
Old: My homebrew (updated 9/9)
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2010-08-30, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Ebonwood
Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?
But the point I was trying to make is that even breaking the bones doesn't matter. Because sure, their femur is now in two pieces. But since the only thing holding it in place anyway was magic, now you just have it in two pieces, and still floating there and not inhibiting the skeleton in the least. (Unless of course the pieces were violently thrown across the room from the impact. Then there's a six-inch gap in the femur, but the skeleton just acts like nothing happened anyway.)
Now, what would make sense would be to disarm the skeleton. Literally. Now sure, he's still not technically dead, but what's he gonna do? Glare at you menacingly?Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 05:02 PM.
If asked the question "how can I do this within this system?" answering with "use a different system" is never a helpful or appreciated answer.
ENBY