OOTS Three-Quarters Of A Million bucks- Why????

[Porthos]

Your second link is broken, Porthos.

Fixed. Thanks.

===

One last bit about the drive. Beyond everything else mentioned I do think the fact that this is really several preorders going on at the same time (though staggered out as one goal is met and another one is started) is helping. It can almost be thought of as six (or even more if various other products are taken into account) drives at once.

And the concept of the feeding frenzy/chain reaction is also at play, I think. The very success of the drive is encouraging more participation, not less. People see a crowd form and want to know what is going on. In this case, it's people who might have been on the fence about participating wanting to get in on all the fun.

Finally, again, luck is at play a bit. If Rich is to have some sort of Kickstarter again down the road for another project, I am sure it will be successful. But I doubt it will be (near) 1M successful. For instance, the Tik-Tok watch project pulled in 900+K. The same company's next project? 300+K. Still massively successful, but not to the insane degree that the prior one was.

Sometimes the stars do align, I guess is what I am saying.

[FujinAkari]

Edit: Hey, rather than simply summarizing it, why not just link to what Rich said

Actually, what I learned in art school was the importance of choosing a style for your work that is appealing and appropriate to the mood you are trying to communicate, how to compose a page and balance text and image elements, how to communicate ideas with images regardless of their anatomical accuracy, how to use vector art programs like Adobe Illustrator, how to use color properly, how to simplify complex shapes into iconic symbols that are recognizable nonetheless, how to prepare a book to be printed, and how to run an independent business that deals with issues like copyrights, trademarks, and the like. I have a degree in Graphic Design, not Fine Art, though it's easy to forget that most people think art school is exactly what they see in the movies: naked people and pencil drawings, nothing more or less.

So yes, that is why he uses Stick Figures, not artistic inability.

[Zerter]

Okay, first of all Rich Burlew is perfectly capable of creating high-class artwork and has proven so in the past. He choses to use stick figures because they're more than good enough to relate this kind of story and action-based comedy (I'm paraphrasing from comments I believe remembering he has made, correct me if I'm wrong).

Secondly before Rich ever put up a product for sale there was a lot of effort involved and failed projects. This website, the comic, the attempt at winning the wizard of the coast's new world project (which eberron won and in which Rich placed second). There was and never has been asking for money so he can get started or even accepting donations. You can say the stars aligned for him on the order of the stick, but before there was the order of the stick there had been a guy that probably came closer than anyone to having his own world published by WOTC only to not have it published.

Thirdly, if someone is a great animator, they should look for a great animating job. Setting up your own projects requires entrepeunerial skills (I hope I spelled that correctly : D) alongside other professional skills. If they don't have those kind of entrepeunerial skills they should not be surprised by someone that in their views has worse professional skills but does succeed because they have skills to make up for it. In D&D terms, Rich is a generalist skill-monkey being envied by a specialist.

[Dr. Gamera]

There was and never has been asking for money so he can get started or even accepting donations.

To be pedantic: way, way back in the mists of history, there apparently was a donation button. I believe it came down before the publication of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools; true OotS greybeards might be able to provide more precise details. (I've only been reading since 2006.)

[dps]

Gee, I smell sour grapes.

[oppyu]

Theory; he saw that OOTS has an insanely large fan base willing to pony up money, so he used troll-bait to lure us to his website for hits.

[Chess435]

Gee, I smell sour grapes.

Nah, it's all just a bunch of whine.

Yes, I had to.

[The Derider]

I donated because the fundraiser gave things I want, and I knew it would go for a cause I was happy to support. He's a proven talent with a long history of quality work, so there was no uncertainty to the end product at all.

I like a good story above all else in any medium, and OOTS provides one. I'd like to see more of that.

[The Giant]

Assuming the OP wants an actual answer and is not just looking for publicity, here's my answer (though much that has already been said is also true):

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

See, it's hard for visual artists to hear this, but the truth is, visuals don't matter. Oh, OK, they matter a little. They can't be eye-bleedingly bad. But that's about it. And certainly good visuals can make a good project better, but the fact is, no audience members get invested in how things look. They get it invested in the story. Characters, plot, moments of drama and levity: these things will attract an audience and keep it. Pretty visuals are only skin-deep. People like images, but they love stories. And they will wade through crappy visuals to get the ones they want to hear. Look at novels: they have NO images at all, and they're still one of the major art forms of the last 300 years.

So, my advice to you is to try to put your story first. Sell people on the awesome narrative that you're going to show them when it's done instead of trying to get them excited about advancing your career. And if you don't have an awesome narrative, hire a writer already.

(Also, a creator's public persona matters. And you haven't done yourself any favors in that arena by publicly whining about someone else's success, or coming to their website to pick a fight. I suppose you might get some sort of traction with people who already hate my work, but I doubt that would be enough to sustain a career on.)

EDIT: I do see six sentences about what your story is buried deep within a wall of text. So I guess that's something. You might want to mention the main character's name at some point, or show a picture of him with a label that says, "This is the main character."

[Sunken Valley]

Assuming the OP wants an actual answer and is not just looking for publicity, here's my answer (though much that has already been said is also true):

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

See, it's hard for visual artists to hear this, but the truth is, visuals don't matter. Oh, OK, they matter a little. They can't be eye-bleedingly bad. But that's about it. And certainly good visuals can make a good project better, but the fact is, no audience members get invested in how things look. They get it invested in the story. Characters, plot, moments of drama and levity: these things will attract an audience and keep it. Pretty visuals are only skin-deep. People like images, but they love stories. And they will wade through crappy visuals to get the ones they want to hear. Look at novels: they have NO images at all, and they're still one of the major art forms of the last 300 years.

So, my advice to you is to try to put your story first. Sell people on the awesome narrative that you're going to show them when it's done instead of trying to get them excited about advancing your career. And if you don't have an awesome narrative, hire a writer already.

(Also, a creator's public persona matters. And you haven't done yourself any favors in that arena by publicly whining about someone else's success, or coming to their website to pick a fight. I suppose you might get some sort of traction with people who already hate my work, but I doubt that would be enough to sustain a career on.)

I think the guy mentions his story

WHAT'S THE MOVIE ABOUT -

It starts with three warriors traveling to a dark castle with the intent of stealing away a princess and murdering her captor ... a horrible dragon King. Things don’t go as planed and they encounter much battle and much adventure. In the end one of the survivors of the ordeal is cursed with a wolfs heart.

He becomes half man, half wolf and the curse plagues him throughout the rest of the story … I’m not sure how much you want me to give away?

Basically its an epic fantasy story, with knights, goblins, witches, dragons, and of course wolves. It has a bit of a love story and a lot of high adventure.

That's more than you put. I know you provided links and you are Rich "9 million readers a year" Burlew, but he has not made his story yet. You spent 9years doing it. Although you are right that he doesn't invest you in it.

With regards to public persona; you come across as reclusive (I see that as a good quality) and a bit agressive (that too) but overall a good guy. Is this what you want to pull off? I also like how you come here and put people straight.

You are my favourite writer!

Edit: Sorry, did not see your edit.

Edit2: I don't think you mentioned any of your guys by name or gave indication that Roy was the star in your pitch (unless you count the graphs and O-chul). Then again: Rich "9 million a year" Burlew

[Cizak]

I'm going to try to go through your post and your blog and give my thoughts, and I will try to do so while not insulting you nor fanboying over Rich. I do apologize in advance if I didn't succeed.

… and why are you still funding it?

For "why we are funding it", see all other posts. As to why we're still funding it, it's pretty simple: Rich keeps on adding more stuff for us to buy. Everytime we break the goal he has set, he immediately set a new one. If you take a look at his latest chart, there are 28 lines (although not all are goals, but most of them) and from the start there were 4. As we keep giving him money, he keeps giving us products in return.

but seriously ... how does a stick figure comic even get $50,000, let alone ¾ of million dollars.

Aside from everything everyone has already said about the stick figures, I must add that Rich's art is not easy. Take a look at the Arts & Crafts forum here and the Fan Comics. Out of all the people trying to do OotS-art, 90% of them never come close (this is not to insult all of you artists. Keep at it!). Rich's art is not easy to create, and he has spent years (he started drawing that way when he was 12, if I'm not mistaken?) perfecting it.

I’m an artist,

So is Rich. He went to art school and is currently making a living out of writing his story in drawn form.

I’m an animator and I feel like I’ve put a huge amount of time and effort into learning how to create my work (and I feel that I'm good at it)

Implying Rich hasn't put huge amount of time and effort into his comic? Well, he has. If you take a look at the very first comic, you'll see that he's been doing this comic since 2003. If I do recall correctly, it was started in September, so that's 8 years and 5 months of creating a story. I guess "huge amount of time and effort" is debatable but to me, that's definitely hard work.

… but I'm sitting here watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground!

Why do you feel the need to view it as competition?

---

I*was just going to let this whole kickstarter thing quietly fade away and die its pathetic little death without a whimper … but then I went to Kickstarters front page and saw this … yup it’s a coat hook.

… and if you notice at the bottom of the picture it’s a coat hook worth $13,000 bucks.

Now how about that, people are actually paying more for an actual household product than an animation project? I'm sorry, I'm trying not to be rude but this one's fairly obvioous.

I mean talk about take the wind out of your sails, talk about taking a kick (starter) square in the nuts. A freaking coat hook is bringing in more money than my movie!

Here is where you start losing me. If you're going to rant and say stuff like "freaking", it does kind of suck the professionalism out of you.*

Projects like this one, a web comic called Order Of The Stick, at this point its been funded to over ¾ quarters of a million dollars

… Uuugh, I know that this rant is being entirely fueled by jealousy, and I’m a poor sport and sore loser … but seriously, a *censored for forum use* coat hook and a stick figure comic???

I mean, did Hell freeze over and nobody tell me?

Yup, and there you lost me. I know to some the f word is not that big a deal, but here you are, the professional artist, the one who's asking for my money, just swearing at other projects. Tell me, would yuu yourself fund someone like that?

Honestly, I wish these guys the best, cause they’ve figured out how to spin straw into gold,

That sounds like an insult. I'm actually not that surprised at this point.

I guess it’s just frustrating watching a guy drawing stick figures, stomp my kickstarter effort into the ground ... Damn it!

I think you can figure out my answer to this quote.

---

Lastly, let me say something about this whole stick figure thing (again). You whine that it's frustrating to see someone make stick figures and get more money than you, but you know what? If you had made more money than Rich, then I would've whined. You know why? Because your film is stop motion. And that's just not appealing to me. Stick figures may not be appealing to you, but to other stop motion may not be so impressive. To me, it's not, and sadly I don't want to give money to a stop motion project that might not even be finished even if the asked amount of money is recieved.

[The Giant]

but he has not made his story yet. You spent 9years doing it.

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products. If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.

With regards to public persona; you come across as reclusive (I see that as a good quality) and a bit agressive (that too) but overall a good guy.

Well, thanks, I think. I think the most important thing is: in 9 years of doing this, I don't think I have ever started a public feud with another creator, even though I know of a dozen off the top of my head that have publicly (or privately) attacked me and what I do. I don't think reader/viewers care about Creator Drama, I think they care about the end result. I strive to take my ego out of the process as much as I can, to mixed results I'm sure. The point, though, is professionalism. It matters.

[Sunken Valley]

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products. If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.



Well, thanks, I think. I think the most important thing is: in 9 years of doing this, I don't think I have ever started a public feud with another creator, even though I know of a dozen off the top of my head that have publicly (or privately) attacked me and what I do. I don't think reader/viewers care about Creator Drama, I think they care about the end result. I strive to take my ego out of the process as much as I can, to mixed results I'm sure. The point, though, is professionalism. It matters.

Technically, you've only been doing it for 2. You've been advertising your books, T-shirts and more since then.

It was meant to be a compliment. And I care about the end result too. Although I would not know about the ego thing. Sometimes...that image isn't clear. Still professional.

[Chess435]

If I had shown up in 2003 and said, "Hey, can you guys give me a few thousand dollars and I'll write a really long story about stick figure adventurers?" without showing you all exactly what I could do, I would have heard crickets chirping.

Case in point:

Ever try making $$ off of your ability?

Sure. Give me $100.

(pause)

Well, I tried. ;)

Yes, I just went back to the very first OotS thread to copy/paste quotes from. Page 6, if anyone's interested in seeing it themselves.

[B. Dandelion]

Technically, you've only been doing it for 2. You've been advertising your books, T-shirts and more since then.

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

[Chess435]

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

I think what he was trying to say is that there's only been merchandise for two years, which kinda misses the point of the Giant's argument.

[Math_Mage]

What's funny about this thread is that I actually looked at your project a few days ago and thought it looked really interesting. But I didn't back it. Why? Because I didn't know anything about the story. I have no idea who it's about and what they're doing, because you're so concerned with the visuals and the technology that you haven't bothered to give the potential backer the first clue what your plot is. Is the old guy with the spear the main character? Or an extra who's killed in the first ten minutes? I don't know, and I just watched it for the second time. You spend your entire video talking about why you want to make a movie without telling us why we would want to watch that movie.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I watched the Kickstarter video.
-Value proposition: I have no idea what kind of story I'm funding, if it's any good, if people will pay attention. We have no idea if what you're doing is worth the money we're giving you.
-Team: You don't give any indication that you know how to handle the parts of the moviemaking process OTHER than art and animation, or that you know someone who does. Also, your swipes at other Kickstarter drives make you appear childish, not professional.
-Impact of investment: After giving us no reassurances about the overall level of work you will produce, you emphasize that our reward for giving you money is a warm fuzzy feeling. EVERYONE on Kickstarter has "warm fuzzy feeling" going for them. You're not unique in that regard.

Basically, your Kickstarter video is put together very much from YOUR perspective. Why YOU are doing this, what YOU are good at, what YOU are sacrificing. You'll get plenty of sympathy that way, to be sure. But you'll get MONEY by appealing to OUR perspective. What product are WE going to see, why are WE going to like it, why should WE trust that our money is going to a good cause (and what WE are going to get for our money).

Your Kickstarter is entrepreneurial fundraising, so take some lessons from business and give it the thought it deserves.

[Chess435]

*snip*

This. So much. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hamiltonz]

Well I hate following The Giant because it's like when an entertainer follows a major star, but I wanted to explain why I started to talk myself into backing your project, but then ultimately decided to not give you any money at all.

First, I am one of those people that likes rooting for the underdog. I can tell that this is a dream of yours and that you are at the point where you are taking the leap and just going for it. That is cool and I want(ed) to support that.

Second, I really liked the 8k pledge level because a buddy of mine has producer credit on an independent film and I want one of those executive credits for myself.

The reason I dropped the idea completely was this quote "I know $8000 isn't enough to fund a movie, but I plan to use the $8000 to jump start this project into a business".

When you are selling an idea honesty is great and most people like that, but you are arguing against your own project here. If the idea is to create a movie then ask for the funds to actually make the movie.

I'm not willing to fund you for six months just so you can be free of all responsibility while you pursue your dream without any real hope that you will produce anything to show for that investment.

I applaud your honesty, and I understand your frustration. I hope that you do eventually make your movie.

[Sunken Valley]

Wait, what?

The online strip costs as much to read now as it did in 2003. The existence of merchandise doesn't change the fact that the comic is free to read and has been so for 9 years.

Or did I totally misunderstand you?

Oh it costs the same. But it's good quality. After a while, it sucks you in. Then in 2005, Rich is like "hey, I'm putting together a book of my comics, it has commentry and bonus material!". The fans say yes and some of them buy it. Then he says "Hey, I'm putting an all new book together, exclusive to print. And in the distant future I'll refer to it in comic." So the fans buy it.

"Hey I'm releasing a board game with original illustrations!" The fans buy it.

"A new book with commentary and bonus material". The fans buy it.

"An eagle award winning prequel with plot spoilers". The fans buy it.

And it goes on and on. And this makes new fans who know OOTS through the books. Or the Game. Or (like me) his tenure on dragon. And then new fans show up who want to buy the books.

By now he's sucked you in so much that you'll buy what he tells you to because it's made by him. And he gets more money than most because he self publishes. His comic is a commercial for his writing and his books. And you don't even know he's doing it.

[GrumpyEye]

The reason why Rich get such support is he puts out a really good product for free, and we do not want him to stop so we support him. And seriously look at all the extra work he putting into his kick start. He has tons of content and is developing much much more.

Also not checking out your site, turned off on the way you do business.

[Math_Mage]

By now he's sucked you in so much that you'll buy what he tells you to because it's made by him. And he gets more money than most because he self publishes. His comic is a commercial for his writing and his books. And you don't even know he's doing it.

Excuse me, give us at least a tiny bit of credit for understanding business models. Even if you don't...

But that's largely my point. I've spent 9 years giving my story away for free—that's why my Kickstarter is the way it is. My webcomic is effectively a very complex marketing scheme for my products.

So, you're putting in a lot of effort to argue a point Rich already noted himself--that he makes money off peripherals--without actually addressing the main point: that he gives the main product away for free.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm rather surprised that I didn't see anybody mention the fact that gamers (of which the OotS fanbase has a large number) seem to have insane amounts of disposable income.

[B. Dandelion]

Sunken Valley, I don't see how any of what you've said makes the statement that the Giant has been freely giving away his work for nine years not 100% factually accurate.

People buy his merchandise for the same reason they support the Kickstart: it's an established franchise that people can have confidence in purchasing because of its track record -- largely set by the completely free online strip. Ergo, that is where other aspiring kickstarters are advised to start.

[ThePhantasm]

Rich is certainly right that the story is the huge center of a creative work's appeal. That said, another important thing (besides the story) that has kept me a reader all these years is the art. The art form fits the story like a glove. I think it is genius in its simplicity.

In some sense I think it can be compared to LEGO sets. Not that Rich's characters look like LEGO figures, but rather that both OOTS and LEGO are popular and aesthetically pleasing despite (perhaps because of) their colorful simplicity. There's something beautiful about LEGO figures and sets, even though they might not be as detailed as, say, a G.I. Joe. The art style works. It can support both humor and drama. It feels relaxed rather than pretentious. To be honest, I can't imagine OOTS looking any other way.

[nogall]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

[Chess435]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

Posting to confirm, it's in the comments of his blog. I think we're done here.

[ZMiles]

For me, it's a few things:

1. Mr. Burlew's comic has given me a lot of free enjoyment over the years, and now I want to help give back. The kickstarter drive is a great way to do that.
1a. Similarly, as the drive is for putting the comic back in stores, it will help other people become aware of the comic so they can have the same enjoyment I and the other fans have had.
2. Because the comic has been available for so long, I've been able to read it and know that I enjoy the work. Therefore, I know that I'll really enjoy the pledge rewards that I'm signed up for (which at this point is the 'All 7 books + 8 PDFs + hit point pad/stickers/coloring books' package). As Gordon Ramsay would say, it's "value for money."
3. Because Mr. Burlew has been doing the comic for so long, and has been selling merch for a while too, I know that he's capable of putting out a finished product. I can be confident that, now that the drive is funded, the books will be reprinted, the swag will be sent out, etc. This is helped by the frequent updates which detail exactly where the money is going. From someone completely unknown, even if I love their art, I don't have the same evidence that they can use the money I contribute to develop a finished, quality product. Additionally, on your kickstarter, it's unclear what exactly the $8000 will fund or what the finished project will be. You acknowledge that it won't be enough to fund the movie, so what, exactly, will the kickstarter money produce on its own?
4. The OotS kickstarter is clear about what will be produced. Your video is too much about yourself and why you want to make a movie, which is great, but doesn't say nearly enough about the actual movie people will be funding.


Most of this boils down to "Mr. Burlew has been posting free comics for a long enough time to attract a large fanbase that knows that they like Mr. Burlew's product, and knows that he can reliably produce what he says he's going to produce for the kickstarter." So, addressing the OP: if you post more of your work online and cultivate a fanbase over a period of time, your next kickstarter might be more successful.

[The Giant]

yeah, I don't think any comment will be able to change the OP's mind regarding the art style. Here's his answer in his blog to people talking about OOTS:

"Oh f*&^ off you bunch of little punks.

I are you guys serious, its stick figures???

Stick figures!!!! ... and its not even very funny."

That is unfortunate. I had hoped, against my instinct, that the OP was actually interested in understanding why we'd raised so much money—rather than simply venting his frustration in the form of a question.

Oh well. The most important ingredient for success is a good tolerance for failure. Keith Baker taught me that lesson.*

*Not personally, he's a very nice guy.

[Chess435]

Judging by the reaction to his (after mine) blog post comments, it looks like it's coming back to bite him already.