The Index of the Giant's Comments III - We've Left a Banana In Charge

[littlebum2002]

Perhaps.. but if anything, this latest story arc cemented the fact that Elan isn't the main character. Tarquin's goal was basically to make Elan take the main character role, and he, y'know, failed spectacularly.

Totally forgot about that! Yes, Elan is def. second fiddle.

[Gwynfrid]

Totally forgot about that! Yes, Elan is def. second fiddle.

I agree. Roy's status as a main character isn't questionable, unless it is a matter of the eye of the beholder (in that case, there isn't a real debate in the first place). As for the main gist of the quote, I don't think it gives us any new information; we have multiple quotes about inclusiveness issues already, and this one is redundant.

In other words, I think that quote doesn't need to be included.

[littlebum2002]

Agreed. It's obvious that Roy is the main character, and I cannot comprehend how anyone (save for that poster) could look at the comic and think "Rich doesn't represent minorities". Any minorities that are not represented have already been mentioned in this thread.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Far as I can tell, Nale didn't appear in Don't Split the Party (487-672) unless he was in a bonus compilation (and I'm not sure that would count).

Technically, he was in the IFCC's portrait of the Linear Guild, but that hardly counts. Xykon has actually been seen in all five completed books, so he fits this point better.

[Ron Miel]

Okay, gang, this thread is just supposed to list the Giant's comments. It isn't or debating them. IIRC, that was a thread rule in the first version. If you want to argue about "who is the main character", I strongly suggest starting a new thread.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, gang, this thread is just supposed to list the Giant's comments. It isn't or debating them. IIRC, that was a thread rule in the first version. If you want to argue about "who is the main character", I strongly suggest starting a new thread.

Looks to me like no one's disagreed with the content of the quote, so I'm not sure what you're concerned about here.

[ti'esar]

Did we ever discuss this quote about Redcloak's wrong-eye eyepatch in the illusion?

[orrion]

Okay, gang, this thread is just supposed to list the Giant's comments. It isn't or debating them. IIRC, that was a thread rule in the first version. If you want to argue about "who is the main character", I strongly suggest starting a new thread.

Nobody is disputing who the main character is. Except you, apparently.

While I'm at it, the Giant's reply specifically to you later in that thread serves to illustrate the point about 10x better than the quote you linked.

[Jasdoif]

Did we ever discuss this quote about Redcloak's wrong-eye eyepatch in the illusion?

Looks like it was proposed, but got lost amidst discussion on other quotes. And even if it had been discussed over a year and a half ago, we're not bound by particularly old quote discussions.

Are you proposing it for inclusion?

[ti'esar]

Are you proposing it for inclusion?

I'm not strongly in favor, but yes. It offers a look into the Giant's reasoning behind an element of the plot.

[Peelee]

I feel it is of equal relevance to the Miko Fight quote, which i believe was included. So there is precedence for this type of comment. I'm in favor of inclusion.

[Sniffnoy]

I think the bit about the Order's (lack of) knowledge of Redcloak's power level is worth including.

[Kurald Galain]

[*]A Rich Source of Quotassium

I'm in favor!

[Gray Mage]

Did we ever discuss this quote about Redcloak's wrong-eye eyepatch in the illusion?

I think it's worth to include focusing the "order doesn't know Redcloak's level" angle, as that could be very usefull when they plan and execute the last fight in the last gate.

[Emanick]

I think it's worth to include focusing the "order doesn't know Redcloak's level" angle, as that could be very usefull when they plan and execute the last fight in the last gate.

It might no longer be true, though. The Order saw Redcloak summon that silicon elemental, and whether or not they heard the actual name of the spell, Roy and Vaarsuvius will probably do everything they can to work out what that means for that goblin priest's level. Because if they weren't taking him seriously before, after a battle like that they certainly are now.

[hamishspence]

It might no longer be true, though. The Order saw Redcloak summon that silicon elemental, and whether or not they heard the actual name of the spell, Roy and Vaarsuvius will probably do everything they can to work out what that means for that goblin priest's level. Because if they weren't taking him seriously before, after a battle like that they certainly are now.

Belkar at least, suspects he's 17th level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html

[Peelee]

Roy and Vaarsuvius will probably do everything they can to work out what that means for that goblin priest's level.

The guy who specifically didn't want to study magic, and the guy who thinks divine magic isn't real magic?

I mean, Roy was able to pick up some just from hearing his dad go on and on about it, but even then that'd be probably just a +1 in Know: Arcane at best.

[Keltest]

The guy who specifically didn't want to study magic, and the guy who thinks divine magic isn't real magic?

I mean, Roy was able to pick up some just from hearing his dad go on and on about it, but even then that'd be probably just a +1 in Know: Arcane at best.

Whether or not he has an academic interest in magic, divine or arcane, Roy is definitely concerned with the tactical implications of fighting not only a sorcerer, but a high level cleric as well.

Plus, Durkon is on hand to give him a rundown of the cleric spell list (possibly excluding domains, though Elan may have seen Redcloak cast disintegrate.)

[Peelee]

Whether or not he has an academic interest in magic, divine or arcane, Roy is definitely concerned with the tactical implications of fighting not only a sorcerer, but a high level cleric as well.

Oh, definitely. I fully agree there. However, that says nothing of his ability to identify said level of the cleric.

Plus, Durkon is on hand to give him a rundown of the cleric spell list (possibly excluding domains, though Elan may have seen Redcloak cast disintegrate.)

Now that's a much better argument (technically, Durkon isn't exactly on hand to Roy, but as for the logistics that's really just a semantics issue).

[Takver]

I hope this is OK to ask, but does anyone here remember where Rich said there would be no depiction of sexual assault in the comic? I've been reading since 2008, and I've always been kind of disappointed in comic #20, and I was just so pleased the first time I read that promise that I want to read it again. But I can't find it/can't remember where he said it/don't see it in the index. I did find the quote where he said he regretted the joke in #20, but I'm remembering a different post than that one. I thought you kind people would remember if anyone did.

[hamishspence]

I believe you're looking for:

Writing tab, Real World Intent section - On Distasteful Jokes in OOTS.

That - or the one on page 3 of the discussion thread for strip 903 - but at that time I think it was discussed in the then-index (the first one of 3 so far) and it was decided not to include it.

[Takver]

the one on page 3 of the discussion thread for strip 903 .

That was the one! Thanks! Wow, you're fast.

[Quild]

Belkar at least, suspects he's 17th level.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html

Ah ah, this one was fun.

On another hand (or in the same hand actually), in #901, Haley seems more concerned about Redcloak than Xykon (or maybe it's because RC is the one whom just cast disintegrate on Roy).

Redcloak then casts a level 9 spell (Summon monster IX) but maybe the order can't know the level of the creature.

The poor evaluation of Redcloak's level of threat is quite surprising since Haley and Belkar (who wasn't in the same dream) got to fight him for a few months (but maybe they were more against Tsukiko and ghouls, especially the last since Belkar couldn't directly fight her and didn't got much xp during those months). O'Chul's report may have some information about Redcloak's level too, even if, there again, RC maybe didn't show much of his clerical power to O'Chul.

The one that has the more information about RC is obviously Niu who saw the implosion spell. But this information didn't reach the order yet

[Keltest]

But this information didn't reach the order yet

If you look very carefully when the Order is hiding, in the last panel of this comic, you can see Haley getting a Sending saying that the resistance has fallen and Xykon is on his way.

[Gwynfrid]

Discussion of the Order's awareness of Redcloak's level is kind off-topic for this thread, I think.

Back to the proposed quote: It is substantial because it explains why, in his dream, Roy sees Redcloak with an eyepatch. But since the eyepatch is on the wrong eye, this was a clue that this whole thing wasn't real - a clue cleverly hidden in plain sight, and a clue for readers only, since none of the Order members caught in the illusion had any chance to grasp it (another reason why V had to be benched for this sequence...). Explaining that subtlety to readers who may have missed it entirely is surely worth a line in the Index.

[Quild]

If you look very carefully when the Order is hiding, in the last panel of this comic, you can see Haley getting a Sending saying that the resistance has fallen and Xykon is on his way.

Yup, but however possible, it is doubtful that the message contains any information about RC abilities.


@Gwynfrid : Well it wouldn't be good to put information about the poor knowledge that the order has of RC's power if this is not up to date. Things happened since the phantasm.
Also, if V hadn't been benched, either the patch would have been on the right-eye, either V would have had a specific dream.
About that, is there any explanation why Belkar didn't share the same dream?

[Gwynfrid]

@Gwynfrid : Well it wouldn't be good to put information about the poor knowledge that the order has of RC's power if this is not up to date. Things happened since the phantasm.

The knowledge of RC's power isn't the point here. It's just incidental. The real gist of the quote, the matter of the patch, hasn't been rendered obsolete by the comic's events.

Also, if V hadn't been benched, either the patch would have been on the right-eye, either V would have had a specific dream.

That's my point. The trick about the patch required V's absence from the dream.

About that, is there any explanation why Belkar didn't share the same dream?

That's explained in-comic: Because his view of a perfect life wasn't the same as the others'.

[Jasdoif]

Before the proposal falls entirely out of notice....

---

VOTING FOR RULE REVISION OPEN

Since the thread rules have the potential to impact the inclusion of any future quote, all rule changes must be approved by vote.

• The proposal at hand contains two steps:
  
  • Rule C will be struck out, and the reference to Rule C within Rule D will be removed.
    

    Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading.

    Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. This is because of rule c). The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions.

  • The following text will be inserted above the rules, outside the rules spoiler:

    The Index provides easy access to direct statements about the Order of the Stick comic from its author, for the purpose of forum discussion. It is intended as a research aid; its entertainment value as a trivia collection is incidental.

  
  
  Spoiler: Expected Format if Proposal Passes

  Show

  The Index provides easy access to direct statements about the Order of the Stick comic from its author, for the purpose of forum discussion. It is intended as a research aid; its entertainment value as a trivia collection is incidental.

  Spoiler: Index Guidelines (PLEASE READ - Updated ??/??/????)

  Show

  These rules were decided by forum vote. They specify what sorts of comments are suitable for inclusion in the Index and what sorts are not. This thread is run by its caretaker in accordance with forumgoer consensus.
  
  Rule A: The quote or comment must still be accessible online.
  
  1) | This includes the use of The Internet Wayback Machine and other methods of accessing comments that may not still exist in the archive.
  
  2) | This does not include second-hand sources, like "I remember Rich said this, but the thread does not exist anymore." Even if you are 100% certain Rich said that, if the quote is not demonstrable or provable it cannot be included.
  
  3) | This does not include Rich's commentary in books or in any medium that cannot be legally accessed for free.
  
  Rule B: The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.
  
  1) | This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.
  
  2) | This may include information related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. . . so long as these quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.
  
  3) | This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information. That is for the admins and mods to publicize and spread word about, not this index.
  
  Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading. (rescinded as rule on ??/??/????)
  
  Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions. (reference to rescinded rule removed on ??/??/????)
  
  Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.
  
  Rule F: The index-keeper (Jasdoif) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.
  
  1) | He/She may reorganize the index if deemed necessary, though all reorganizations can be reversed by majority vote.
  
  2) | He/She may immediately add a comment to the index without any vote, discussion, or consensus required if the comment obviously is in accordance with these agreed rules.
  
  3) | He/She may never fully "reject" a comment's inclusion, however, he/she may postpone its inclusion until further discussion (and, if the divide in opinion appears even, a vote) decides the matter.
  
  4) | If a comment's inclusion is uncertain, a vote requires a clear majority. If there is a tie the comment will not be included. The majority must have at least 2 more votes than the minority. Remember, the purpose of the discussions and votes are to reach some measure of consensus, not division.
  
  Rule G: Transcripts of Q&As with Rich Burlew may be included, in their entirety, in additional posts to the Index. Rule A applies as normal, but all other Rules may be varied contingent on community acceptance. Quotes can be added to the Index proper from the Q&As. This is not considered redundancy for the purposes of Rule E.
  
  
  
  The inclusion procedure below was proposed and adopted in a more informal fashion than the rules above, but still represents how this community project is expected to be run with regards to including new quotes.
  
  Participating doesn't require an understanding of this procedure: we discuss the merits of quotes after they're proposed in the usual forum fashion, and the curator will call for nominations or votes at the appropriate time.
  
  But for those interested in the details:
  

  • Quotes with a clear consensus to include or exclude after discussion will be included in or excluded from the next update, as appropriate.
  • Quotes the curator deems clearly aligned with the inclusion guidelines will default to be included in the next update without needing extended discussion, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
  • Quotes without a clear consensus to include/exclude after discussion will default to be included in the next update, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
  • Updates will happen when there are six quotes ready to be included or if it has been two months since the last update.
  • When an impending update is announced by the curator, and prior to the update being done, people can PM the curator requesting a vote on the particular "default" inclusion quote(s) (the quotes with strong consensus to include do not need to be voted on). Two separate posters must request a vote on a quote for it to occur, otherwise the quote will be included.
  • If a vote is necessary, the curator will call for voting on all quotes set to be voted upon. Discussion, beyond reiterating personal reasons for voting alongside the vote, is discouraged while the vote is going on. Per thread rules, to be included a quote must "win" a majority by at least 2 votes.
  • Only votes called for by the curator are binding.
  
  It is believed this will have the same intended effect as Rule C, without the same risk of interpretative conflict that a rule without a clear definition can cause.

---

• Please bold your yes/no vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
• Since a rule revision is not a quote itself, the normal request not to discuss the item being voted on does not apply.
• In keeping with the intent of Rule F4, the revision will need to have at least two more votes in favor than votes against to be accepted.

Voting will be open until December 16th, 9PM EDT.

---

I'll get to quotiness once the vote's complete.

[Keltest]

I'll vote yes.

[hamishspence]

I'd have to say yes as well.

However, because rule D references rule C - if the vote passes, the bit that references Rule C will need to be removed from it as well.