Paladin 3.5 Smite Evil rework

[Breitheamh]

Paladins are cool. Holy warriors of virtue, though sometimes with sticks up their rears. But they're still cool. Problem is, they suck. Obviously, there are myriad reasons for this, but, since this is my first time ever posting a homebrew anything anywhere, I'm focusing on just one: Smite Evil. I know that many people have reworked the paladin, but Smite Evil always stood out to me as a feature that could be really cool, but is often neglected. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm just completely unoriginal with this, but here goes:

Smite Evil (Su)

A Paladin can smite evil a number of times per day equal to 3 + plus his charisma modifier. This can be increased with the Extra Smiting feat, and it automatically increases by one at 5th level and every five levels thereafter, so that a Paladin of 10th level may smite evil 5 + Charisma modifier + Extra Smiting(optional) times per day.

Using this ability allows a Paladin to imbue one attack with power from his god. It is done as a standard action. First, the Paladin makes smiting check. This works like a turning check, in that the Paladin roles 1d20 + Charisma bonus, and this determines how many HD an evil enemy must have to withstand the smite (I'm new here and extremely clueless with technology, so I don't know how to make a table for this , but there is one on p. 159 of the PH, just substitute Paladin for Cleric). Next, the Paladin makes a single attack at his full base attack bonus. The Paladin adds his Charisma bonus (if any) times his Paladin level to the attack roll. If the attack is successful, but the target is not evil, damage is resolved normally and the smite attempt is wasted. If the target is evil and they have fewer HD than the required amount indicated by the smite check, the target is dazed for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Charisma bonus, and the Paladin adds his Charisma bonus times his paladin level to the damage dealt. If the target has HD equal to or greater than the required amount, the Paladin deals damage as before but the target is not dazed. If the attack misses, the smite attempt is wasted and no damage is dealt.

In addition, at each level when a Paladin automatically gains another smite attempt per day (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th) his smite also becomes more powerful. At 5th level, a creature with HD below the result of the smiting check must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Charisma modifier) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier. Creatures with the Undead type must make a Will save with the same DC or be cowed. If they make the save, they are still dazed. At 10th level, the creature is stunned or cowed without a save. At 15th level, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Paladin level + Charisma modifier) or die. An undead creature must make a Will save in place of this Fortitude save. At 20th level, the if the target's HD are below the result of the smiting check, the target is killed without a save. Creatures immune to death effects are not immune to this.

Extra Smiting (feat)
Prereq: Smite ability
Benefit:Each time you take this feat, you may use your Smite ability four more times per day.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it you may use your Smite Ability 4 more times per day.

Let me know what you think. I don't expect it to make them compete with anything above Tier 4 or maybe 3 by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly a helpful boost. I'll probably post reworks of other Paladin class features later, and eventually put them all together.

[Haldir]

Well, the Paladin certainly won't suck. But that amount of Save or Die power might not float so well with some groups.

[BWR]

Just adopt the Smite Evil variant from Pathfinder's paladin.

Even better, adopt the entire PF paladin.

[Perseus]

A bit to powerful, though I've seen clerics that essentially do that in mass against undeads sooo yeah. Depends on the group.

How about level determines the effect and at level 15+ make it where any evil creature hit by a smite must make a fort save or die?

[Angelalex242]

The biggest problem I see with this...

Many of the biggest things a Paladin wants to save or die have more HD then he can smite. Especially evil dragons. On the other hand, outsiders and undead tend to be relatively low on HD, so it works fine against them.

The turn undead mechanic is an interesting idea, though. The 'turn check' can make any individual smite more or less effective then the paladin's level, (up to level +4!), and the damage is 2d6+charisma mod+pal level in this case...

Ah, I know. level mod is the max CR that can be smited. The 'damage' is the max HD that can be smited. Thus, on a good day, a 10th level Paladin might be able to smite a CR 14 monster out of existence, provided it has less then 16+2d6 HD. There's no save, either, because it requires an attack roll, and not even a touch attack roll at that! Note most touch attack spells don't allow a save...

But yeah, instant death does serve the meaning of 'smite' a whole lot better, particularly because 'immunity to death effects' won't save an enemy from this, nor will death ward or similar magic. Only not being evil (or having draconic levels of HD) will save you.

[Carl]

Yeah this is just stupidly overpowered. Any evil Creature with HD close to it's CR rating is dead unless you roll a natural 1 on the attack roll. It's basically licence to kill any non-death effect immune target with the evil descriptor, barring a few creatures with very high HD to CR ratios.

EDIT: Doing the math even if it can't be instantly destroyed by the smite the bonus damage is so huge that a critical hit or other valid damage multiplier would raise the damage output so high even Elder dragons would be one shotted.

[kinem]

IMO the 3.5 paladin is fine as is. The Pathfinder version is overpowered. And yes, I have played a paladin in 3.5.

[Carl]

IMO the 3.5 paladin is fine as is. The Pathfinder version is overpowered. And yes, I have played a paladin in 3.5.

Obviously not in the same party as an optimised Sorc, Wizard, Druid or Cleric who can do everything you do better plus a bunch of other things besides.

[Breitheamh]

IMO the 3.5 paladin is fine as is. The Pathfinder version is overpowered. And yes, I have played a paladin in 3.5.

I suppose here we will just have to agree to disagree then. Part of my thinking for a Paladin's underpoweredness comes from my first time DMing, when I had to deal with a party consisting of Druid, Psion, Bard, and Paladin. He kind of lagged behind a bit.

[Perseus]

IMO the 3.5 paladin is fine as is. The Pathfinder version is overpowered. And yes, I have played a paladin in 3.5.

You forgot the blue.

But thank you for the laugh!

Edit:

@ Carl, you wouldn't even need that much optimization for any tier 3 to tier 1 class to outshine the paladin... At his own job no less. Meanwhile the paladin needs so much optimization just to be a damage dealer that it is quite sad.

I miss the 2e Paladin.

[Breitheamh]

A bit to powerful

So, this is the general consensus I'm getting on this.

I've seen clerics that essentially do that in mass against undeads sooo yeah. Depends on the group.

And this was kind of the original idea I was fiddling with, so...

How about level determines the effect and at level 15+ make it where any evil creature hit by a smite must make a fort save or die?

I like this idea. Instead of instant death for opponents with roughly the same HD as the Paladin from 1st lvl, would this work:

From 1st lvl opponents that are beat by the "smite" check are dazed for rounds = to Cha mod. At 5th lvl, they must make Fort save (DC 10 + Cha) or be stunned. 10th lvl they are stunned (no save). 15th lvl they must make a Fort save (DC 10 + Cha) or die, and 20th lvl, it is instant death.

?

[Perseus]

So, this is the general consensus I'm getting on this.



And this was kind of the original idea I was fiddling with, so...



I like this idea. Instead of instant death for opponents with roughly the same HD as the Paladin from 1st lvl, would this work:

From 1st lvl opponents that are beat by the "smite" check are dazed for rounds = to Cha mod. At 5th lvl, they must make Fort save (DC 10 + Cha) or be stunned. 10th lvl they are stunned (no save). 15th lvl they must make a Fort save (DC 10 + Cha) or die, and 20th lvl, it is instant death.

?

Saves should be 10 + 1/2 Level + Cha Mod.

How stunned is a powerful ability but really I've seen level 7 wizards magic missile stun tons of enemies (including BBEG) sooo powerful but one target so should be fine.

Give smite the ability to hurt chaotic and neutral (good evil axis) probably lesser effects and you have a good start.

I'll need to read stunned again, I'm not sure if undead are effected by it, you will need a status effect that hurts undead or else it will be weird.

[Breitheamh]

Saves should be 10 + 1/2 Level + Cha Mod.

How stunned is a powerful ability but really I've seen level 7 wizards magic missile stun tons of enemies (including BBEG) sooo powerful but one target so should be fine.

Give smite the ability to hurt chaotic and neutral (good evil axis) probably lesser effects and you have a good start.

I'll need to read stunned again, I'm not sure if undead are effected by it, you will need a status effect that hurts undead or else it will be weird.

Alright, I'll add it. And thank you for reminding about undead, not sure how I forgot about them.

[kinem]

I suppose here we will just have to agree to disagree then. Part of my thinking for a Paladin's underpoweredness comes from my first time DMing, when I had to deal with a party consisting of Druid, Psion, Bard, and Paladin. He kind of lagged behind a bit.

So would any fighter-type in a party of spellcasters. It's not a problem with the paladin but with the system as whole. Yet it works well enough from what I've seen.

Note that any upgrades of the less powerful classes will increase party power as a whole and thus throw off the CR system. So then you have to increase monster power too.

[Breitheamh]

So you're just saying nerf the wizard and leave the mundanes alone? I can see where you're coming from but I kinda feel like you should boost the lower Tier classes as well, otherwise, as you said, the CR system would be thrown off.

[Draconi Redfir]

What i'm seeing is that your turning smite evil into what's essentially a localized turn undead. Now i'm not sure about you, but when i played a cleric in 3.5, it was a huuuuge pain to turn undead due to it being so complicated, we always had to stop the game, turn to the right page, figure out what's what, and the way it was worded prevented me from just writing down what to do in one or two sentences and using it as a reference.

the vanilla smite adds the paladin's charisma bonus to the attack bonus, adds the paladin's level to the damage, and makes the weapon good-aligned so you can damage demons and devils and the like to bypass DR.


i suppose what you could do is enhance that last feature, as far as i know smite evil is a single attack in 3.5 as opposed to a "i use it on you, now every attack can be a smite evil against you" as it is in pathfinder, so perhaps what you could do is make it so that the weapon acts as a "holy" weapon, dealing an extra 2d6 damage against evil creatures, perhaps as the paladin levels up you could even add in the lawful-enchantment for another 2d6 damage towards chaotic creatures, and a keen enchantment so that it's critical threat range is higher for the single enchantment. Smite in 3.5 is a limited-number attack, so make it powerful to make up for it.

[Perseus]

So you're just saying nerf the wizard and leave the mundanes alone? I can see where you're coming from but I kinda feel like you should boost the lower Tier classes as well, otherwise, as you said, the CR system would be thrown off.

The thing that kinem doesn't get is that to have fun you have to be able to do stuff.

Unless you like it when you fail or the DM says "no you can't do that".

Lower tiers have more on the "fail/can't do that" side of things than the "do stuff/can do that" side. It is an inherent problem with the system BUT the answer isn't to only Nerf tier 1s but also bring everyone tier 6 to 4 up a notch.

Classes such as the Fighter and Paladin don't get enough toys to play with... Look at 4e, the Fighter and Paladin are two of the best classes and yet so is the Wizard. The Fighter and Paladin have solid class creation along with the Wizard.

The Wizard is still GOD but the Fighter still scares him.


Errr sorry OP I got side tracked.

Anyways...

I would love to see a higher level amitw that gives the effe ts of Mark of Justice... You hit them so damn hard that it leaves your deity's symbol on them. Yeah powerful for a standard attack action (or charge) but bad ass fluff if you do it right.

[Lyndworm]

the vanilla smite adds the paladin's charisma bonus to the attack bonus, adds the paladin's level to the damage, and makes the weapon good-aligned so you can damage demons and devils and the like to bypass DR.

No it doesn't. I'm not sure where you're getting that, unless I've massively misunderstood you.

[Angelalex242]

Indeed. Making a smite automatically good aligned actually takes a feat out of the book of exalted deeds, known as 'Exalted Smite.'

The Fist of Raziel prestige class (My favorite!) gives that feat as a bonus feat.

[Draconi Redfir]

No it doesn't. I'm not sure where you're getting that, unless I've massively misunderstood you.

It says it right there.

She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level.

unless you meant the good aligned thing, in wich case i may have mistaken it for either the pathfinder smite, or the bless weapon spell, wich is sort of like a poor-mans smite. my bad.

[Angelalex242]

Bless Weapon is a buff spell, designed to do two things:

First, bypass Demon/devil Dr, and second, autoconfirm crits vs. evil. It is that second function that stacks, never with the keen special property or the vorpal special property, but ONLY with improved critical, the feat. If used with a Falchion, this becomes a 30% crit rate that you need never roll to confirm against evil. Particularly useful against very high AC opponents, where if you do hit, you want it to HURT.

[Lyndworm]

unless you meant the good aligned thing, in wich case i may have mistaken it for either the pathfinder smite, or the bless weapon spell, wich is sort of like a poor-mans smite. my bad.

That is, indeed, to what I was referring. My apologies for the ambiguous quote.

[Perseus]

You could add in the feat "Touch of Golden Ice" (or whatever its called) to smite at a higher level.

Save or Die, and quite awesome visual ;)

I always thought that should be a Paladin class feature and not a feat.