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2020-09-22, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-22, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Taking a comment made in the double-digits before an overarching plot was even set up (it's literally just describing a "go kill big bad" plot and that's it); especially a comment made by the only explicitly Evil character in the party and that is immediately frowned upon by literally every Good character in the party as a world-wide viewpoint?
It seems to me just writing out that full explanation counters your point by sharing it. If the argument relies solely on Belkar being the voice of the overall population, or at least a significant enough one that people take HIM seriously? You're reaching.
Half the point of Belkar is that literally everyone that interacts with him despises him and his murderhobo behavior. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else that is as much of a murderhobo as he is out of the tens (what, almost a hundred now?) named characters aside from Xykon. Maybe Thog?
Acting like his behavior is at all representative of the overall population in the world as we see it is a stretch of the imagination, especially when the majority of Good and Neutral characters have been shown to be opposed to that mindset.
Merriam-Webster refers to oppression as "unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power". On a mortal level, we haven't really seen oppression (at least in the online-only, but again, if it matters that much, put it online and make it free), because the goblins have been under their own authority and power. At most, it's xenophobia or racism resulting in a crusade/war, rather than "oppression".
You could reasonably argue that the Deities are oppressing them, if it were not shown that the crayon-art is even more an unreliable narrator than the characters in the comic are. We don't have a Deity that explicitly cared about the Goblins, however we don't have objective evidence (that I can recall, and that isn't crayon) that they were created to be sources of experience for PCs.
Elves were also unsponsored and just created to fill a trope niche, so why don't we assume they too were created to be fodder for growing adventurers? Again, because Rich assumes that generally people have a certain perspective based on his own experiences playing the game. I think that speaks to a level of cynicism and shallow understanding of humanity as a whole.
As for Lord Raziere, see my point about people with agendas. Every interpretation written up by a person is going to have inherent biases, especially highlighted by statements like "Themes I Have Observed". Anyone else is going to observe things differently.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-09-22, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
An interesting thought: Belkar is supposed to be a parody of a type of problem player, and the fact that he's so popular while Miko, a parody of a different sort of problem player was distinctly not popular might indicate that there are far more Mikos than Belkars out there; far more self-righteous paladins than murder hobos.
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2020-09-22, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
I apologize if I miscommunicated. I wasn't saying "Belkar's statement in comic #13 is the bedrock of the Goblin Oppression narrative." I don't see Belkar as a good spokesperson at all, and I certainly don't see him as any sort of "voice of the people."
I was simply pointing out that Rich as a writer was already poking fun at this mentality from the very beginning, so it didn't surprise me much when the topic continued to resurface in later strips.
The holier-than-thou bit might play a big part in that divide: characters who act smug, superior, or dismissive are often more hated by fans (sometimes in a love-to-hate way) than characters who just do "bad stuff" but are pretty open and blunt about it. Personally, I doubt that it has much to do with readers "seeing themselves" in Miko vs Belkar, and more to do with how annoying it is to read a smug antagonist.
But then, I don't believe there are truly all that many murderhobos or self-righteous paladins in the playerbase either. I agree with the people who've depicted it as a very loud, annoying minority.Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-09-22 at 02:39 PM.
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2020-09-22, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- On the tip of my tongue
Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
I submit that the difference in popularity is purely down to how the story is written. Belkar is a protagonist and accordingly given jokes, POV time, awesome moments, a pseudo-redemption arc, the eventual grudging respect of the other protagonists, etc. Miko is always the killjoy antagonist, even when the other people in the room are literally Redcloak and Xykon. She is both unrelentingly strait-laced and the least self-aware character in a parody comic, hence always the unsympathetic butt of the satire. That has nothing to do with the frequency of killjoy paladins vs. lazy murderhobos around the table.
Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-09-22 at 02:44 PM.
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2020-09-22, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Fair, I guess.
I just don't think he sets it up in the comic aside from Belkar's attitude, and snippets of what the VILLAIN is saying. Of course the villain is going to try to justify his stance. In the online-only stuff, we don't even see non-combatant Goblinoid life, and when we do it's played for laughs.
Originally Posted by The GiantOriginally Posted by The Giant
Originally Posted by Ionathus
Social commentary that relies on the writer's experiences being THE TRUTH and not just a fraction of it is inherently flawed. Especially when they make little to no effort to demonstrate that experience in their own work.
P.S. The last three sentences are also why I suspect certain people dislike a couple other comic's shifts in recent years.
P.P.S. Sorry I lack the ability to write concisely or provide tldrs.Last edited by Wildstag; 2020-09-22 at 05:11 PM.
Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-09-22, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
First off: Rich wasn't talking about murderhobos. He was talking about the treatment of goblinoids by everyone, not just the sadistic people justifying their behavior. Casual, unthinking "othering" of another sentient group is a lot more insidious than the outright sadistic type, because it rears its head in lots of sneaky small ways, even when the people involved don't have bad intentions.
Second: You're making a lot of assumptions about my opinions, this discussion, Rich's statements, and the comic at large. When I read OotS, I don't see any "requirement" for the readership to have experienced a certain playstyle or character treatment or goblinoid racism. Hell, there isn't even a requirement to play D&D -- I've been reading the comic for years and didn't start playing D&D until 2018.
I don't see anyone (Rich included), broadcasting "THE TRUTH" as you claim. I see plenty of characters, arguing and struggling against each other, asking questions and arriving at answers as the narrative unfolds. Hell, Redcloak's hypocrisy, which has recently been called out in-comic, is a clear sign that the story isn't just dealing in a bunch of preachy absolutes.
I've really valued this entire discussion, but now I'm afraid that I'm coming across as condescending. If it helps, please know that I don't hold ill will against anyone who disagrees with the "Goblin Oppression" narrative, anyone who's ever treated monstrous humanoids as black-and-white villains in their own games, or anyone else in this debate. I chimed in to give my own analysis of OotS, and share my opinions about how certain playstyles feel, to me, harmful. I'm certainly not here to condemn other people for how they play the game, but I'm happy to debate that "how" if they are.
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2020-09-22, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
The idea of "Don't kill a monster just because it looks different, or even if it is hostile" has been around since at least the Star Trek Episode Devil In The Dark . While there are people willing to kill someone merely for being the wrong species or gender or sex, there's been such a strong push in the other direction from popular culture in the last fifty years I have a hard time anyone above the age of 12 could go murderhobo and know it wasn't wrong, even if it was technically within game rules.
Although, on the other side of the coin, not every game or story needs moral complexity. Sometimes you want to explore the human condition; sometimes you just want to break heads. If I sit down to checkers, I'm more than willing to capture red pieces for no other reason than that they are not my piece's color, nor is it "genocide" to do so. This is a combat game, however, simplistic, and fighting is what they're here for.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2020-09-22, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
I just mean "THE TRUTH" as in those "the giant" quotes. Sure, they were written in 2012, and perhaps with a decade of thought Rich may think differently about them, I try not to assume anything more about him than what has already been said (simply because I do not know how a person has changed in their personal lives).
Redcloak can be a hypocrite without changing the fact that the author can feel similarly; it is the character's actions that makes him a hypocrite, not his words alone.
The meat of this setting is "self-aware stick figure fantasy", and the way it's portrayed makes it clear that "fantasy" comes packaged with "racism". And though that is certainly true in several games I've played, and in many stories I've read, they're never as simple as "the creature is inherently evil, and killing them is always justified" (or at least, not any humanoid creatures).
Comments like the one I quoted are a statement about everyone based on a single person's experiences. I would ultimately say that this comic has handled alignment better than it has the racism subplot.
Yeah, I value the discussion, and I don't want to come off as being personally against anyone. I just don't like that so much of the "Yes oppression" relies on taking unreliable narration straight or pay-per-view content being available. If it doesn't matter enough to make free for everyone, then it shouldn't matter enough that entire arguments rest on those examples.
Fwiw, you weren't coming across as condescending. I was trying to refer to Rich, since he's the one writing the story. I see how I could have written that better to better separate those thoughts.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-09-22, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
As for Lord Raziere, see my point about people with agendas. Every interpretation written up by a person is going to have inherent biases, especially highlighted by statements like "Themes I Have Observed". Anyone else is going to observe things differently.
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2020-09-23, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
I think Belkar is more liked cause as the protagonist, we spend more time with him and get to see his more admirable traits from time to time. Also cause a lot of his early evil actions are played for laughs, and usually he's more or less useful enough to the order. Maybe if the comic was about the adventures of Azure city prison guard #4, we would all hate Belkar just as much as we do Miko. Belkar being a bad person has certainly made the party have a lot of trouble, but Miko's actions are arguably the reason why Xykon and Redcloak are still alive.
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2020-09-23, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-23, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-23, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-23, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Oh, that theme is much older than 1967.
How about Bilbo sparing Gollum in The Hobbit? That's after Gollum has already threatened to murder and eat him.
That would be in the revised edition of 1951, not the original, but it's still quite a bit earlier than "Devil in the Dark".
Or you could look at the Conan story "The Tower of the Elephant" Conan spares the very alien Yag-kosha out of pity until the creature asks him to kill it as part of its scheme for revenge on its captor. First published in 1933.
I'm sure there are even earlier examples, but you've probably all heard of those two characters.
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2020-09-26, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2020-09-26, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-09-26, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Okay. out of how many people who are human?
so one person broke the wizard glass ceiling, cool. good for them. one example doesn't prove that monstrous races are widely accepted in wizard academies, just as one example doesn't prove that are oppressed. thats why I went through and found patterns and tendencies, the vast majority of wizards are still human with an elitist intellectual attitude towards anything that isn't a spellcaster or even the same class as a wizard, combine that with most of the monstrous races being intended to make warrior, thugs, soldiers for people to kill, its easy to see those races as big dumb warriors in race form from that mindset. that and the headmaster was a hog person anyways, which might not even have the same issues as an ogre, troll or orc. those three are popular common examples of monsters to kill in the monster manual. but I don't recall much mention of hog/boar people having the same level of spotlight and whether its something Rich made up or an actual player race, we don't know what their history is in this world. and the closest official equivalent I can find to such a race is a tabaxi and they're generally not considered a monster race, they may be humanoid cats but they aren't literally made to be evil beings out to kill people, so just because a race is anthropomorphic, doesn't necessarily mean they're a monstrous race in DnD. same thing with lizardfolk. the only race I can recall being anthropomorphic and monstrous are the gnolls, and the gobbotopia book is specific on what races they are open to: gnolls, flinds, yakfolk, minotaur, lycanthropes, there is "much more" but he specifically highlighted these ones and these are major anthropomorphic races that are also considered monstrous.
notice that lizardfolk and that one cat-folk girl in the Vector Legion work alongside humans just fine, while gobbotopia is specifically marketing itself in its propaganda as a safe space for a bunch of races that aren't lizardfolk or tabaxi.
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2020-09-26, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Majority does not mean oppression, in my opinion.
The fact that a monster person is the BOSS of the wizard academy means more to me than how many students are which species.
Because as the boss he can decide who may study wizardry and who may not.
Also, wizards are arrogant and think little of other people. Yes. But that is a profession prejudice, not a racial one.
I agree with these people who wrote that Rich MIGHT HAVE INTENDED that the OotS had racial oppression from humans against goblins, but the implementation of that idea is not as straightforward as it should be, IF that really is what he intended to portray.
Much of that is because the main problem with OotS analysis: he mixes serious and funny, and you have to guess how "to the letter" you should interpretate each piece of his work. It is like Belkar said: You shouldn't treat as serious anything I say in the last panel.
But applied to the comic as a whole.Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2020-09-26, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
You sound like you don't want the comic to seriously deliver the message that racism is bad.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-09-26, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-26, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-26, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-26, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-09-26, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
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2020-09-26, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
There was a joke where Roy and Haley discussed about how random encounters with lots of treasure practically run at PCs to get killed or something, and that didn't exactly have much bearing on the plot or the messages the comic tries to convey. I imagine those are similar cases.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-09-26, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
You sound like you are seriously trying to put words in my mouth.
No, thanks, I pass.
This is what I mean....since Rich mixes up parody and seriousness, in order to make an argument people regularily need to dismiss parts of his work as "not counting" in their argument one way or another.
And there is no clear indicator when to do so is right and when it is wrong.
You think Warthog Dumbledore doesnt count because he *clearly* is just a one-of-gag?
Well, remember the panel where Hel got the dwarven souls who died without honor?
That gag had less panels than Warthog DD - up until it turned into the main plot all of a sudden.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2020-09-26 at 06:44 PM.
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2020-09-26, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
1. I technically didn't ignore it at first. I specifically already gave you analysis of it:
Okay. out of how many people who are human?
so one person broke the wizard glass ceiling, cool. good for them. one example doesn't prove that monstrous races are widely accepted in wizard academies, just as one example doesn't prove that are oppressed. thats why I went through and found patterns and tendencies, the vast majority of wizards are still human with an elitist intellectual attitude towards anything that isn't a spellcaster or even the same class as a wizard, combine that with most of the monstrous races being intended to make warrior, thugs, soldiers for people to kill, its easy to see those races as big dumb warriors in race form from that mindset. that and the headmaster was a hog person anyways, which might not even have the same issues as an ogre, troll or orc. those three are popular common examples of monsters to kill in the monster manual. but I don't recall much mention of hog/boar people having the same level of spotlight and whether its something Rich made up or an actual player race, we don't know what their history is in this world. and the closest official equivalent I can find to such a race is a tabaxi and they're generally not considered a monster race, they may be humanoid cats but they aren't literally made to be evil beings out to kill people, so just because a race is anthropomorphic, doesn't necessarily mean they're a monstrous race in DnD. same thing with lizardfolk. the only race I can recall being anthropomorphic and monstrous are the gnolls, and the gobbotopia book is specific on what races they are open to: gnolls, flinds, yakfolk, minotaur, lycanthropes, there is "much more" but he specifically highlighted these ones and these are major anthropomorphic races that are also considered monstrous.
notice that lizardfolk and that one cat-folk girl in the Vector Legion work alongside humans just fine, while gobbotopia is specifically marketing itself in its propaganda as a safe space for a bunch of races that aren't lizardfolk or tabaxi.
2. and until Warthog Dumbledore becomes apart of the main plot, a gag he remains. But really its about whether its one-off gag. its about whether its part of DnD or not. HP is not DnD. simple as that.
3. even if its all parody....I can multitask and find things both meaningful and funny. my ignoring it is not because its a gag, its because its not relevant to how Rich is examining DnD and through it a bunch of issues in general. Now I can analyze that one comic about Harry Potter if you want but its not going to be relevant to the DnD analysis, because thats a whole different bunch of issues. HP =/= DnD, therefore what its criticizing isn't whats being criticized about DnD.
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2020-09-27, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
This is a bit of a tangent to the Warthog Dumbledore sub-discussion, but I've been flirting with bringing it up for weeks and it seems about time. And honestly, given how unlikely this sub-discussion is to wind up going anywhere fruitful, maybe it's worth derailing.
I've seen a number of posters claim, or at least acknowledge, that goblinoids don't appear to have any meaningful arcane casters. In SoD that's basically true, but by DSTP it no longer is. The browncloaks that patrol the streets of Gobbotopia née Azure City are wizards (see panel 7), and there appear to be quite a number of them.
It does seem a little jarring that goblinoid wizards appear to be all-but-nonexistent in SoD but fairly common by the time DSTP rolls around. That said, I can think of two possible explanations for the shift:
1. The residents of what appears to be the largest aboveground hobgoblin city have had more success in producing wizards than any other goblinoid culture we've seen in-comic, given their high population density and correspondingly greater ability to produce surplus human(oid) capital.
2. The conquest of Azure City gave the hobgoblins access to Azurite libraries and other magical resources, enabling them to start developing a corps of arcane magic-users.
Explanation #2 seems slightly more likely to me, given that I don't recall any hobgoblin arcane casters appearing in War & XPs or How The Paladin Got His Scar, but either seems quite possible. Either way, this suggests that, at the very least, there isn't some divine built-in Law of the Multiverse holding goblinoids back from practicing the arcane arts (except maybe in terms of sorcery). That slightly weakens the case for cosmic goblinoid oppression, though not by very much.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2020-09-27, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Goblin Oppression; fact or fiction?
Oh, I never argued for some divine law holding them back, because even if the gods were cosmically oppressing them, they don't need to do something so metaphysical: just make sure they never get the opportunity for an education. goblins never getting to be able to attend college because the gods make sure their resources are so poor they can't live stable enough lives to go there is entirely possible and in keeping with what Redcloak claims how they are oppressed.
but I didn't know that dancing lights was exclusive to arcane casting in 3.5 I thought that brown cloak was a cleric and that they just had a domain for that. thing is, all the browncloaks we see only cast dancing lights, so its entirely possible that these hobgoblin wizards are really low level and thus just learning the magic in the few months of occupying Azure City yes- if they were higher level, there is certainly better ways of using their spells than casting a near-useless cantrip. Which fits with the wizards that Vaarsuvius once encounters on the western continent being so low level that they don't even have 2nd level spells- things are so unstable that they can't consistently live or level up enough to become powerful wizards and only just now getting the ability to form a wizard guild at all, probably because of Tarquin's efforts to unite the place, while V considers them dilettantes not work speaking to, implying that other wizards they have encountered are higher level than that.