Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Wraith]

Although...

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So, hold up. Is Leetu (LE-2) one of the missing primarchs?

No.

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He's one of - if not the first - successful Space Marine Legionaries. He was kind of a prototype made from the Emperor's genestock that helped create the technique for making the Primarchs, and when they disappeared the Emperor had to fall back on an earlier, simpler design as a replacement.

[hamishspence]

The Awoken Primaris - those created by Cawl millennia ago and then put into the fridge - might have been human during the Scouring but whether or not they were active Primaris? That gets messy, as it implies that Cawl had unlocked the mysteries of the geneseed and was creating new supersoldiers within a couple of years of the Siege of Terra, which is... unlikely. Then again, the Scouring went on for just over a century so maybe a few of them might have been ready to go by the time of Guilliman's mortal wounding in M31.121?

Or they're bog-standard Marines and Cawl took them past the "Rubicon Primaris" - and characters like Calgar only think they're among the first to undergo it.

Codex Space Marines 8e v1,

p21 (Crimson Fists bit):

"For his raw material Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself."

p30 (Ultramarines successors)

"One of the first founded Primaris Marine Chapters, the Fulminators were created in M31, even as the last battles of the Scouring were being fought. The aspirants selected were the best recruits heading into the Terran Guard, and they have been in stasis for nearly 8,000 years."

[Thragka]

On the holdover-Warhammer-Fantasy subtopic: Cathay confirmed for Total War: Warhammer III! Colour me surprised. I thought for sure Ogre Kingdoms would be a core race, with Chaos Dwarves as a less likely additional possibility.

[LansXero]

On the holdover-Warhammer-Fantasy subtopic: Cathay confirmed for Total War: Warhammer III! Colour me surprised. I thought for sure Ogre Kingdoms would be a core race, with Chaos Dwarves as a less likely additional possibility.

That sounds positively DLC-ish

[Thragka]

That sounds positively DLC-ish

Yeah, I'm certainly not ruling them out – just surprised, since OK was an 8th ed. WFB army book, while Cathay never had an official release (not even approaching semi-official White Dwarf rulesets like Kislev and Vampire Coast, iirc).

[Eldan]

Eh. Warhammer II introduced four new races originally, Skaven, High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen.

This can introduce Ogres and Daemons which are main game armies, and Kislev and Chaos Dwarves who were second fiddles who occasionally got models or army lists in secondary sources and Cathay, which will allow them to go pretty wild as there's no sources. I mean, that's enough to make a game with. And Kislev is getting a new model range, so that's good timing.

And I don't remember the exact trailer for WHII, but I know they only announced Skaven pretty late.

[LeSwordfish]

I've heard the theory that Cathay is intended to appeal to an audience in China - apparently TW: Three Kingdoms was a hit over there.

[Eldan]

If it is, it's working. Friends who speak the language tell me that Chinese gaming channels are all over it.

[Corvus]

Starting races are the four chaos gods as seperate factions, Kislev and Cathay. No word on cdwarves or ogres but one of them will have to be the pre-order bonus otherwise the entire darklands, the centre of the map is going to be filled with placeholders.

Kislev seeing the light of day finally is great. The trailer shows how epically badass they are.

[Sinewmire]

I would guess that Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarves will be DLC.
Hopefully they'll rework Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen, they sorely need it, and Chaos does seem to be a theme of this game.

[Eldan]

Starting races are the four chaos gods as seperate factions, Kislev and Cathay. No word on cdwarves or ogres but one of them will have to be the pre-order bonus otherwise the entire darklands, the centre of the map is going to be filled with placeholders.

Kislev seeing the light of day finally is great. The trailer shows how epically badass they are.

I mean, if your only problem is a gap in the map, you can fill it with orcs and vampires for the badlands. Strigoi really should be a thing at some point.

[Voidhawk]

Old World map. Making Cathay the centre of this game doesn't come as a surprise: the previous 2 have covered everything west of the World Spine mountains, and just leaves the relatively unknown far east to fill in for the complete set. That means Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms, Cathay, Nippon (not!japan), Ind (not!india) and The Hinterlands of Khuresh (not!south-east-asia).

Kislev on the other hand is rather out of left-field. While possessing a decent amount of fluff, they've always existed primarily to just be "that place that Chaos burns down to show the situation is serious". They're relatively small (certainly compared to literal Russia), and miles away from the big players of the East.

Personally, I'm here for Chaos Dwarves. They've always had a great aesthetic (daemon-industrial-Babylon) and a much deeper well of fluff than most people know about. Give me the ability to build lines for running daemon-trains across the Dark Lands and I'll be a happy Dawi-Zharr.

[Misery Esquire]

Old World map. Making Cathay the centre of this game doesn't come as a surprise: the previous 2 have covered everything west of the World Spine mountains, and just leaves the relatively unknown far east to fill in for the complete set. That means Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms, Cathay, Nippon (not!japan), Ind (not!india) and The Hinterlands of Khuresh (not!south-east-asia).

Kislev on the other hand is rather out of left-field. While possessing a decent amount of fluff, they've always existed primarily to just be "that place that Chaos burns down to show the situation is serious". They're relatively small (certainly compared to literal Russia), and miles away from the big players of the East.

Personally, I'm here for Chaos Dwarves. They've always had a great aesthetic (daemon-industrial-Babylon) and a much deeper well of fluff than most people know about. Give me the ability to build lines for running daemon-trains across the Dark Lands and I'll be a happy Dawi-Zharr.

I don't know, Ogre Kingdoms were a main faction and Kislev at least had an army book at one point. And they're still missing Dogs of War and Araby (and Chaos Dwarves, as you already noted) who had actual books available, and Amazons who had White Dwarf supplements and units. That's just off the top of my head, there's (hopefully, I dropped out of playing after 6e) more White Dwarf armies out there for the Old/New World region already on-map.

Cathay is the one from out of nowhere Warhammer-internally. Speckled lore about a Dragon-Emperor, terracotta soldiers, black powder from the Nagash backstory, and Tzeentch worship. And having a Great Wall of China Bastion that got broken by Dawi Zharr and then nationally completely rolled by Grimgor in an End Times footnote. Wow. Externally, it's an obvious move because "please give more China dollar" coming into play with the success of TW: Three Kingdoms in that region.

(To be clear, I am excited for TWWT. )

[Eldan]

I mean, I don't think you're missing anything. White Dwarf was pretty much squatted as a thing with actual material in it in 7th/8th edition, so they didn't add much there. There were some more chaos dwarf models and that's about it. Cathay never had much.

(I also need to be careful about not mixing up Old World lore with all the Ninth Age lore I've been writing lately.)

[Fyraltari]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

[Grim Portent]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

[LCP]

From the look of everything that's come so far, I don't think they're making Cathay the centre - I think they're making the Chaos Wastes the centre, and both Kislev and Cathay border on them.

[Eldan]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

Yes. And several quite interesting chaos tribes. Like Tzeentch-worshipping pseudo-Mongols.

[Eldan]

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

Except that the chaos dwarves enslave hobgoblins.

[comicshorse]

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

Yep there's a section in 'Something Rotten In Kislev' where you get to join up with an army of theirs for a bit

[Grim Portent]

Except that the chaos dwarves enslave hobgoblins.

The chaos dwarves enslave everybody, the hobgoblins get the best deal out of it of any of the slave races because they chose to side with the chaos dwarves over the rest of the greenskin race during the mass slave rebellion lead by the early black orcs. There's literally no one else with anything even approaching a positive relationship with hobgoblins as a people, other greenskins kill them on sight and ogres see them as food. Of the three factions in the setting that include greenskins, only one actually works with hobgoblins.

As I understand it, big groups of hobgoblins have something resembling autonomy in the chaos dwarf lands. They get to roam around on their wolves, patrolling, raiding each other and non-Dawi-Zharr and serving as auxiliaries in the chaos dwarf armies. They're slaves, but they're high ranking slaves who nominally chose to be slaves in exchange for preferential treatment.

[Voidhawk]

Chaos Dwarves are Equal Opportunity *******s. They'll happily trade with any faction they meet, with the exception of other dwarves (who they see as traitors and betrayers). Of course, you have to have something they want that they can't just take: regular supplies of slaves are best of course.

[Corvus]

Reading through what lore there is on Cathay and they are going to have to retcon a lot of it aren't they?

Making Cathay be on the side of order is a bit of a stretch, and if they are after that sweet Chinese moolah, which would appear to be the reason they made Cathay a core race over developed ones like ogres and chaos dwarves, they are going to have to get approved first and that might be a struggle given previous lore.

Not only have they had dealings with the skaven but one emperor seems to have had a skaven advisor. Then there are the eunuch vampires who are well and truely embedded into the empire's bureaucracy. And also the fact that there are tzeentch worshipers who do so openly and are permitted to do so by the state, and are part of the upper echelons of the empire as well.

I cant see that stuff surviving.

[Wraith]

I have to say, that does sound like a really interesting idea of the lore of an Old World Faction.

An Empire that prides itself on being cosmopolitan - they allow 'religious freedom', which just means that Chaos cults have a solid foothold, but haven't yet sprung their open rebellion. They tolerate non-human and even undead advisors under the auspice of 'all people are welcome provided they serve', even though on a direct level it just means that both are infiltrating the hierarchy with their thralls and their assassins...

Everyone else in the Old World takes one look and realises immediately that the whole thing is doomed to inevitable and incredibly violent failure, even the skaven who are actively engineering its downfall and are just there to get what riches they can before the explosions begin... It just hasn't happened *yet* because all of the competing forces all think they're the only one who is on to a good thing and are waiting for the right moment.....

But for now: Hey look! Vampire and Humans and Skaven all working together for the Greater Good and prospering! Glory to the Dragon-Emperor and his infinite wisdom!

[Eldan]

Not only have they had dealings with the skaven but one emperor seems to have had a skaven advisor. Then there are the eunuch vampires who are well and truely embedded into the empire's bureaucracy. And also the fact that there are tzeentch worshipers who do so openly and are permitted to do so by the state, and are part of the upper echelons of the empire as well.
.

Eeeeeh. You can probably retcon the Tzeentch worshippers to be state-sponsored wizards who have gone through a few rounds of travellers exageratting and misunderstanding. The rest... is kind of fine?
t
Vampires have never been on the side of chaos, one of the stated intentions of Vlad trying to become Emperor was fighting Chaos, for example. The Skaven, for the most part, are only loosely related to chaos. Outside of the end times, at least. They have their own goals.

[Fyraltari]

Even then, the beginning of a Cathay campaign could consist of you purging the compromised elements of the empire.

[Mystic Muse]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

[Cheesegear]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror. However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

[Mystic Muse]

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror. However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

Fair on not beong interested in the aeldari. I feel the same way about Orks.

Was just curious about the Chaos God thing because I enjoy pondering what-ifs for the setting sometimes.

Thanks for the prompt answer.

[Wraith]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

It would take 65million-and-30-thousand years of an inherently psychic, galaxy-spanning species descending into unprecedented hedonism. You may have heard about it, a few titbits have been released over the years

At least, that's how it happened the first time, and it has been recently suggested that it could be done in as little as 10,000, or even 6,000 years.

Firstly is the Emperor. Cheesegear already outlined that - put an immensely powerful psyker on a pedestal, get a few trillion humans to worship him for 100 millennia and then sever his link to the mortal world then *maybe* he will reach apotheosis? Probably? Who knows, probably best not to risk it.

It's been vaguely implied that this is happening to the Orks - they're inherently psychic and if enough of them get together then they can pool their belief (the Power of the Waaagh!) into something and make it happen for real. Usually this is for low-level stuff like keeping vehicles working beyond all sensible damage because the Mek Boy has smacked it with a hammer and so they believe it's 'fixed', but now many of them are starting to recognise Ghazghull Thraka as the Prophet and/or living embodiment of Gorkamorka, so if enough of them start to believe it hard enough then it may yet come true. Ghazghull has only been famous for about 160 years in-universe at this point though, so it's either going to be a HUGELY accelerated process or he's just getting started.

The other is the Tau. The Fourth Sphere expansionists - according to Phil Kelly - have been seeing a vaguely Tau-shaped entity appear before them when they use their new wormhole-Spaceship-drives, which they have identified as an embodiment of the Greater Good, a concept established approximately 6,000 years or so ago. Apparently it draws strength from every new species 'converted' to join the Tau, which is why it appears as an amalgamation of different creatures - four arms, five-fingers on it's hands, a smoothed-though-recognisable Tau face, etc.

There are a great, great many problems with this theory, least of all that the Tau aren't in any way psychic so how they have created a God is unknown. Likely it's probably just Tzeentch being a jerk and pretending to be something else for its own reasons, but who knows?