MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness

[lothos]

He's some form of Domo-kun. Like Domo with the ability to teleport others.

Evidence: Domo's favorite food is stew, Domo cannot speak, "Domo's expression is "a sort of cheery wonderment. Like when a kid wakes to a room full of presents on Christmas day." <-wiki, he certainly is strange looking, lives in a cave and as such seeing him in a jungle would be odd...

Yeah I'm reaching, but the first 2 points of evidence are strangely compelling to me.

edit: hah, I found more evidence, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html Explosive farts. Domo has them as well...

This certainly is an interesting idea. I had never heard of a Domo before. As Grey Wolf said, if it's copyrighted, that might be an issue. I personally wouldn't regard that as a killer blow, but it's definitely a critical hit :-)

I looked up Domo-kun in Wikipedia and I couldn't see any information about when it first appeared. It mentions Nickelodeon using it in 2006. It would be useful to know when it first appeared, because if it's after 2004, it can probably be ruled out. As mentioned in the first post of this thread, Rich states that he knew what MitD was from around strip 100, which appeared in 2004. Therefore if this character was created or first appeared in 2005 or later, we can probably eliminate it.

I think the biggest problem is that this needs to be "Like Domo with the ability to teleport others." Teleporting others isn't something that's easily explained. I personally still believe Wish is the best way to explain it, though I like the ingenuity of ideas like his box having dimensional anchor and him casting teleport. If he is a Domo, we still need to explain "Escape", which is actually the biggest challange to many things that have been proposed.

I mean with a bit of stretching, if you don't have to explain "Escape" then quite a lot of monsters fit reasonably well. I mean, looking at your name, what about some kind of Zerg from Starcraft ? Not necessarily a Zergling... The Ultralisk has enormous strength, is bigger than a medium sized creature (human) but not by much, doesn't normally talk.... but it can't teleport others. I mean I guess you could argue there was a Nydus Canal there..... :-)

I went back through SoD today and one thing that jumped out was the name of the circus, which is "Ding-a-ling Brother's Anachronistic Circus". I have a hard time believing that the term "Anachronistic" is meant as a throw-away joke, or just an excuse for the flying elephant and Batman & Robin jokes later on. My suspicion is that the MitD, much like the other creatures there, doesn't "fit" in the D&D world.

It's interesting.... maybe this is a hint. I mean the style of circus here is anachronistic, even though the Romans did have Circuses (what have the Roman's ever done for us ???) but they were not the modern sort of circus we have in the west. So it could be that the style of circus is anachronistic, or that the exhibits within it are... including MitD.

Agreed. And remember that "anachronistic" means something is out of time, not out of place. The polar bears in the jungle on Lost are not anachronistic. Now if they had been saber-tooth tigers...

You know I've always felt that "Sabre-toothed" ought to be applicable to anything for comedic effect. I had a discussion many years ago about sabre-toothed kittens. Fluffly little balls of love that can rip your arm off. Maybe it should be a template :-) I can see Sabre-Toothed budgerigars now.....

I think we all are on the wrong track. We're looking for creatures capable of teleporting, or spellcasting; with high Spellcraft, even I myself proposed prismatic dragon. Usually the wish/escape whatever is the bottleneck that leaves out most of the Monster Manual. Not to mention how hard it is to find a monster with such a high STR that fits under an umbrella...

Prismatic dragon was first proposed (so far as I know) here by hungerer, back in this post. I spent some time looking at the pros and cons here.

I personally believe Prismatic Dragon is a fairly good fit, though there are some problems including size and that it doesn't get Wish till it's a lot older than MitD might reasonably be expected to be.

Talking about high strength monsters that fit under the unbrella, if Miko's problems in strip 374 are a special ability and we are looking for something that might have a lot of spellfract, then just looking at those things, the Grey Linnorm from MM2 is a wonderful fit. It's one of the Linnorms like the Dread Linnorm but it only has one head.

It is a huge creature (not Collosal or Gargantuan) when fully grown, so I could believe a juvenile would merely be large.

Like the other Linnorms, it has a special ability to fling opponents 70 feet and they take 7d6 damage. This isn't as much as the other Linnorm types, but it can explain Miko's problems without a stupendous strength.

It also could have Miracle which might explain "Escape", because it has 17th level cleric abilities..... and there is the problem. To cast Miracle it would need 19 wisdom and we know he doesn't have even 5 levels of cleric abilities. That's why I didn't propose it as a serious candidate. However in my opinion it is a better fit than some other things that have been proposed.

However, Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to believe MiTD is capable of anything but "eating enemies", not a good choice of words for a spellcaster monster.

I don't agree with the idea that MitD is only good for eating enemies. Just becasue that's what Xykon wants him to do, doesn't mean he can only do that. The idea of eating the Order of the Stick came up first in strip 103. Now that's around Strip 100, so I guess it's possible that this is the exact strip when Rich knew what MitD was. It might be that swollowing whole is a fundamental feature of this creature... but quite a lot of creatures have the ability to swallow things whole. Also in Start of Darkness, the mind charm that Xykon put on MitD was to swallow Redcloak whole.

Maybe we should give the swallowing thing more weight ? I mean I know it's been said many times before we can rule out creatures like undead and elementals because they don't eat. But perhaps we would scrutinise only creatures that specifically say they can swallow other creatures whole.

He has been asked to eat the PCs, to eat a certain hypotetical traitor(SoD) and to eat babies. He hasn't been ever been asked to cast a spell, or use other powers, which in the case of Wish, certainly could provide a huge tactical advantage. Xykon doesn't suspect he teleported O-Chul, but he certainly would if we were talking about a monster that can cast spells or have spell-like abilities.

I really doubt Xykon has any or many ranks in Knowledge (anything relating to MitD). He is a Sorcerer, not a wizard, so everything other than Knowledge (arcana) is cross classed for him. Xykon has never actually said he knows what MitD is. OK, he might know, but I don't think we can draw firm conclusions on if Xykon knows or not.

You are absolutely correct that if Xykon knew MitD could do stuff like "Escape" he would try to use it to his advantage, everyone and everything seems to just be a tool to him to use to his own advantage or for his own amusement. So the conclusion I draw from this is that Xkyon doesn't really know exactly what MitD is or what he is capable of.

Also he asks Tsukiko to check on a ritual, certainly if he knew the base race of MiTD has a huge Spellcraft skill, he could have asked him to help too.

Which in my opinion could again be explained as just that Xkyon doesn't know what MitD is.

If we add the fact that the base creature is not suposed to speak (SoD), we must come to the only possible conclusion: the base creature is just a physically powerful monster, which rarely talks, and has a huge mouth with which it often eats its enemies. It must NOT be inmune to being charmed (SoD). Other than that, a high Str is the only needed thing. Maybe a young Bulette (just out of my head as example, not a serious proposal).

Possible.... but I think I've already made my point that another option is that Xykon doesn't know what he is. Since he doesn't know, we are free to decide if "escape" was caused by MitD or not. Personally I firmly believe "Escape" was caused by MitD (I'm not sure if it's wish or something else). However if my assumption is correct then we are looking for a monster which has such an ability and that rules out a lot of creatures, including that example (unless you modify it).

So why can MiTD do "Escape" or "Wish", or why does it have more spellcraft than Tsukiko? How can it have a 32+ str which barely any creature of that size posseses?

Here's where Rich words come to aid:

[rich quote]
the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one.
[/rich quote]


The way I understand this, MiTD is a creature not literally taken from any book, but modified, enhanced, for a reason related to the main plot. This other sentence also seems to support this:

[rich quote]
Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was
[/rich quote]

Why exactly then? and why mentioning that he figured it out when he developed the story? IMHO, because MiTD has a place in that background story, and what makes him a special creature of his race must be linked to the main plot. Snarl Jr. has been proposed before, and I don't think that's possible at all, but now we have learned that the Snarl may not even exist (there is a world where the Snarl should be) so the possibilities are open. In fact, too open to even start guessing until we know more of what's behind the gates.

OK, I accept that there is a good chance we won't know what MitD is before close to the end of the strip. However part of the fun is trying to figure it out from the clues Rich as given us.

As Grey Wolf said in a post a few pages ago, a lot of the people on this thread are trying to use a scientific method to determine what MitD is. It's possible that we won't succeed. That's not going to stop me trying. Given what I have read from Rich (including his comment that it is possible to guess) I believe that MitD can probably be narrowed down to a few contenders at least.

We haven't found a perfect fit yet. But then in the real world science hasn't answered every question we can ask yet. Figuring out what the MitD is may require more observations (new strips) with experimental results (how he behaves in certain circumstances) allowing us to propose and debate new theories on what he is. I enjoy that process, even if we are not assured of finding a definite answer.

You know, another thought just occured to me. What if the Knowledge skill that allows you to identify MitD species is Knowledge (Religion) ?

The "probably a wizard" guy in the circus is likely to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Xykon, if he has any Knowledge ranks would have been likely to take a few in Knowledge (Arcana) for the Synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

The only character who we believe definitely knows what MitD is is Redcloak, a moderately high level Cleric (at the time of Start of Darkness) who is almost certain to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

Any thoughts ?

[Barlen]

You know, another thought just occured to me. What if the Knowledge skill that allows you to identify MitD species is Knowledge (Religion) ?

The "probably a wizard" guy in the circus is likely to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Xykon, if he has any Knowledge ranks would have been likely to take a few in Knowledge (Arcana) for the Synergy bonus to Spellcraft.

The only character who we believe definitely knows what MitD is is Redcloak, a moderately high level Cleric (at the time of Start of Darkness) who is almost certain to have quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

I had consider this line of reasoning as well. But that doesn't guarantee it's Kn(religion). Redcloak is fairly smart and has knowledge outside just religion (he mentioned he got passing grades in Chem etc).

However, Xykon and Redcloak don't seem to believe MiTD is capable of anything but "eating enemies", not a good choice of words for a spellcaster monster. He has been asked to eat the PCs, to eat a certain hypotetical traitor(SoD) and to eat babies. He hasn't been ever been asked to cast a spell, or use other powers, which in the case of Wish, certainly could provide a huge tactical advantage. Xykon doesn't suspect he teleported O-Chul, but he certainly would if we were talking about a monster that can cast spells or have spell-like abilities. Also he asks Tsukiko to check on a ritual, certainly if he knew the base race of MiTD has a huge Spellcraft skill, he could have asked him to help too.

Keep in mind that Knowledge checks might get you partial information. A general knowledge about how powerful a creature is (ooooh epic) and its name might only be a DC 10. But Knowing that it has the ability to use spellcasting powers of some kind might be DC 20 or 30. Redcloak said he knows what it is, but it doesn't seem like he has any idea that it can cast spells or use any powers.

Let me give an example. I went through the list at the start of the thread and decided I like the Hagunemnon the best. Its an epic planar creature that has major shape changing powers. It also has psionic abilities. Redcloak suggested he didn't know the campaign used psionics. Maybe it went like this:
Redcloak has Knowledge (the planes) 10 ranks (maybe granted by the mantle?). He sees the creature and makes a Knowledge check. He needs a DC 20 to know its an epic creature sometimes summoned by epic casters to fight battles, and of course to name it. He needs a DC 30 to have full knowledge of the creature, like that it powers are psionic based. He gets something around a 25 on his check. He can name it and know how powerful it is, but doesn't know it uses psionics.

Now even if you disagree about the Hagunemnon, the logic here would still apply and explain why Redcloak and Xykon don't know about its powers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The way I understand this, MiTD is a creature not literally taken from any book, but modified, enhanced, for a reason related to the main plot.

Why exactly then? and why mentioning that he figured it out when he developed the story? IMHO, because MiTD has a place in that background story, and what makes him a special creature of his race must be linked to the main plot. Snarl Jr. has been proposed before, and I don't think that's possible at all, but now we have learned that the Snarl may not even exist (there is a world where the Snarl should be) so the possibilities are open. In fact, too open to even start guessing until we know more of what's behind the gates.

The full quote is as follows:

That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

(bold mine)

The quote tells us that Rich didn't invent MitD - which discards the Snarl, no two ways about it, unless someone finds Snarl in some work that predates OotS. It also tells us that someone else did invent MitD. But, and I feel this is important, Rich considers MitD guessable. If he were as modified as you propose - say, a faun which Rich had modified to have huge strength, insatiable and indiscriminate appetite and ability to teleport - how would that be guessable?

And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches". Equally, someone else could simply decide to discard everything under "Physical Characteristics". Or some random combination, picking and choosing. And then, yes, anything fits. But it leaves us exactly were we started: without matching your guess to what actually happens in the strip, there is no way to gauge how appropriate it is.

I had never heard of a Domo before.

I wasn't aware of its name, but I had certainly seen it before.

I really doubt Xykon has any or many ranks in Knowledge (anything relating to MitD). He is a Sorcerer, not a wizard, so everything other than Knowledge (arcana) is cross classed for him. Xykon has never actually said he knows what MitD is. OK, he might know, but I don't think we can draw firm conclusions on if Xykon knows or not.

You are overthinking this. If Xykon knows (and I'll give it a big IF since this is Xykon, and simply might not care), it is most likely because RC told him, not because of any knowledge on his part.

Since he doesn't know, we are free to decide if "escape" was caused by MitD or not. Personally I firmly believe "Escape" was caused by MitD (I'm not sure if it's wish or something else).

Actually, we are past that stage now. Behold:

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Unless Rich is purposely trying to mislead us, that's confirmation that the escape was caused by MitD. It also strengthens the idea they might be psionic powers, and as a bonus, suggests an explanation for "RC not knowing about psionics":

RC knows what MitD is. He tries to get him to teleport a few minions. But MitD's ignorance of itself, its general innocence and lack of attention span, etc. defeats the attempts, and RC eventually gives up. If the powers are psionic based, RC would actually wonder if they had failed because of MitD's lack of competence, or because there are no psionics in OotS-verse. Thus having to go out of his way to find some other way to test it.

Keep in mind that Knowledge checks might get you partial information. A general knowledge about how powerful a creature is (ooooh epic) and its name might only be a DC 10. But Knowing that it has the ability to use spellcasting powers of some kind might be DC 20 or 30. Redcloak said he knows what it is, but it doesn't seem like he has any idea that it can cast spells or use any powers.

I understand what you are getting to here. Unfortunately, there is one detail you're overlooking. RC likely has access to every monster manual ever published (as evident for his scouring of them to create the three Xykon "brothers"). RC is also a competent planner, and I doubt he'd stop at the basic knowledge check. He's had plenty of time to look up in the appropriate MM MitD's class, and through it a whole list of every possible power. That said, I think my reasoning above where MitD was deemed useless and incompetent for anything other than being ugly, strong and hungry would have led RC to believe he did not have access to those powers.

Grey Wolf

[Math_Mage]

I understand what you are getting to here. Unfortunately, there is one detail you're overlooking. RC likely has access to every monster manual ever published (as evident for his scouring of them to create the three Xykon "brothers"). RC is also a competent planner, and I doubt he'd stop at the basic knowledge check. He's had plenty of time to look up in the appropriate MM MitD's class, and through it a whole list of every possible power. That said, I think my reasoning above where MitD was deemed useless and incompetent for anything other than being ugly, strong and hungry would have led RC to believe he did not have access to those powers.

Grey Wolf

Or, he isn't in any of the manuals. Instead, he's borrowed from some other fictional setting. As noted in the OP, figuring out how to dodge copyright would be difficult, but it explains the inexplicable gap between RC's knowledge of MitD's abilities and his blithe ignorance of the possibility that MitD used them.

Of course, that might not need explanation, since RC wasn't in the room when the events in question happened.

[lothos]

(snip)
Actually, we are past that stage now.

Awesome ! Thanks.

I haven't got "Don't Split the Party" yet so I am still waiting to read all Rich's commentary and horribly misquote it in support of my outlandish theories :-)

[Saldre]

Hey

I just had to post to mention

I don't think you can use the fact that RC is a competent planner to justify the fact that he would have looked up MitD's identity.

When he was hanging around the books, he was still in his "I hate orange" phase, so you can excuse his poor planning there (sending them to die out of a grudge isn't great planning). Great planning would have been sending in MitD, whose strength alone could have probably wrecked a bigger hole in the wall then the catapults.

Both Xycon and RC have already established that they have absolutely no faith in the MitD, and even use that to their advantage to guarantee Miko's escape.

My point is MitD is more of a hindrance to them, regardless of the abilities he may display, or may not display. Redcloak has time and time again has pushed the MitD aside and away, without as much as a Glance, in order to focus on more serious avenues, and mostly answers him to get him to leave.

All this to say that despite the fact that Rc has all the book, he could have (like Barlen had suggested) only partially succeeded the test in SoD. He gathered up the monsters manuals in preparation to the Azure City battle, which is much much later: It was established that the MitD was ineffective far before he had gathered the books.

In the middle of such an important battle, and even afterwords seeing as he had to worry about maintaining the city and has had no free time (Pretty sure he says hes the one that's keeping the trains on time), he may have decided that the MitD is not worth the research, and even if he were to bother to find out more about it, the creature itself (due to its nature) cannot be used effectively, as such it would be pointless.

Resume: Even if Redcloak has all the books, we cant assume that he went ahead and researched every monster in the manual because he's a good planner. This might be a fallacy, but the fact that he didn't use the MitD to its full potential indicates that he DIDN'T research the monster manuals for it, even if he had access to it, as its strength has been demonstrated time and time again and a good planner would have made good use of it!

- One cant argue that he, as a good planner, didnt use the mitd because he knew it would be too weak, because we as omniscient readers know its "hypothetical" stats, and know that the creature would have been able to do massive damage to the opposing team, if it so much as put in a bit more effort then a slight tap on the ground: azure city's best warriors are like level 5, Miko couldn't overcome its DR, I doubt that anybody in that city, even on a natural 20, would even do 1 damage to the thing, and even if they did (like Ochul mentions) it wouldn't be enough to bring the monster down.

- Triple changed my post! I see that was an example you gave to explain how its possible that RC wouldnt know about Psionics.

-Also, maybe the mitd is in a book that RC wasnt aware existed, one that doesnt have undead in it? What book is the Protean in? Maybe its in a Psionics book? This also could explain why he didnt fully research the MitD's abilities.

-Having reread your post yet again to avoid looking like a b*stard and repeating stuff that's been said before over and over again, I just realized that we basically said the exact same thing.

So there, I agree with the fact that Redcloak has probably not looked up the MitD's real power because he thinks the MitD is too ineffective to be used properly either way.


I hope this makes sense :P

[lothos]

Hi Saldre,
You have made a detailed analysis of Redcloak's actions. However I'm not basing any assumptions about what he knows about MitD on those actions.

Rather, in the prequel book "Start of Darkness", Redcloak explicity states that he knows what MitD is, to MitD's face.

It's possible he is lying, but we have no reason to believe that. So I wasn't basing the idea that Redcloak knows what MitD is based upon looking in monster books, rather based on what is said in Start of Darkness.

[Saldre]

Oh! Sorry! I should have mentioned Who i was actually actually talking too! It wasnt you, but Wolf's response to Barlen's "RC only partially succeeded a knowledge check to find out what the MitD, getting a name and a few numbers, but the raw data on his abilities".

So i do believe Redcloak knows what the MitD is, but only that. The same way I could know what, hmm, any monster is really without knowing what it does exactly and still be afraid of it.

Example: Everybody knows white dragons are terrifying: because they are dragons, not because they have the ability to control the weather at higher levels.

I also hope this makes sense

[Lord Bingo]

Reading through this entire thread again I'm starting to believe, like some of you, that MitD does not belong in the D&D universe, but rather that he is part of our modern cultural background. Also, I think this talk about possible copyright infringement has been blown way out of proportions.

OOTS reference and poke fun at D&D so much that if you stretch it it could actually be considered a copyright infringement in and of itself. We are, however, contend, as are WotC apparently, that this is fair use. On top of this, every paladin in OOTS summon his or her mount from one of those silly little Pokemon balls/eggs (I'm not into Pokemon, so I don't know what they are called) so obviously Rich isn't too worried about a lawsuit from the japanese either. Basically I think we should do away with the copyright clause concerning the origin of MitD from outside D&D and broaden our search to include characters/creatures from every known and reasonably popular piece of fiction.

[Nerdanel]

I think Redcloak's ignorance supports the template theory. He could have researched the MitD's abilities at his leisure, and probably would have, since he likes to plan ahead. Since Redcloak still thinks the MitD is nothing but a strong and stupid melee monster, he may think he already has discovered everything important by reading the MitD's description in the monster book that has his race.

The thing about invisible templates like Phrenic is that they are invisible. Redcloak can look at a Phrenic Half-Dragon Tarrasque, identify it as a Half-Dragon Tarrasque, and congratulate himself for his fine knowledge check.

[Selene]

Reading through this entire thread again I'm starting to believe, like some of you, that MitD does not belong in the D&D universe, but rather that he is part of our modern cultural background. Also, I think this talk about possible copyright infringement has been blown way out of proportions.

OOTS reference and poke fun at D&D so much that if you stretch it it could actually be considered a copyright infringement in and of itself. We are, however, contend, as are WotC apparently, that this is fair use. On top of this, every paladin in OOTS summon his or her mount from one of those silly little Pokemon balls/eggs (I'm not into Pokemon, so I don't know what they are called) so obviously Rich isn't too worried about a lawsuit from the japanese either. Basically I think we should do away with the copyright clause concerning the origin of MitD from outside D&D and broaden our search to include characters/creatures from every known and reasonably popular piece of fiction.

Do you have any relevant experience with trademark and/or copyright law on which you're basing this? Or are you just wanting to discard an inconvenient problem?

As has been said several times now, there is a difference between a one-off reference, or a joke (e.g. Poke-balls), and using a trademarked property as a main character. Also, OotS is a parody of D&D, not of Pokemon, Disney, LotR, or any other trademarked property. So considering trademark infringement as a problem is not something that can just be discarded. Companies do in fact take their trademarks seriously, and Rich is not going to want to have to pull a bunch of books and have them reprinted because Nintendo or somebody sends him a C&D.

IANAL, but I have had project names rejected for trademark reasons. As an example, I had to rename a package that was called "Snow White and Rose Red," after the Grimm's Fairy Tale, because the legal department at the company where I brokered it thought it might cause a problem with Disney. Note that Disney doesn't specifically own the name Snow White, as they took it from a (different) fairy tale. Nor does the package in any way resemble anything from Disney's Snow White. Nonetheless, legal made my partner and I rename the package to Snow Rose.

[Asta Kask]

Could it be Snuggles the death cat?

[DavidBV]

The full quote is as follows: (bold mine)

The quote tells us that Rich didn't invent MitD - which discards the Snarl, no two ways about it, unless someone finds Snarl in some work that predates OotS. It also tells us that someone else did invent MitD. But, and I feel this is important, Rich considers MitD guessable. If he were as modified as you propose - say, a faun which Rich had modified to have huge strength, insatiable and indiscriminate appetite and ability to teleport - how would that be guessable?

First of all, he talks about a "fine line". So while he has not invented it, probably he has invented it too somehow, otherwise he wouldn't have said that...

Rich stated that "eventually" someone can find out, that doesn't mean it can be found yet.

"Guessable" as you say may mean that we can, by reading the story, find out how such a base creature has gained those powers while still being so silly, and still pass for a mere melee grunt for Redcloak and Xykon.

And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches"

Well, that makes little sense. Precisely because you have found nothing that matches, then a new approach is in order. I mean, comeon, many experts have looked at this for *years* now... and among the "forerunners" there's a monster with two heads and inmune to charm.

I never suggested that you discard anything, as you have stated many times, that list is your personal view on the subject. I was just expressing what I feel may be the truth. I am sorry if this is "inconvenient", as I am sure what many people is expecting is finding an exact match from a DnD book. I think it's obvious now that an exact match does not exist.

Rich talks about a "fine line". So pretty likely yes, a few of those 20-odd characteristics are probably not from the base creature, and are acting as red-herrings. If we had to guess what Bilbo Baggings is from some random behavior facts, we may quickly rule out all creatures without "invisibility at will". Yet it's a Hobbit that due to plot, has found The One Ring. Get what I mean?

And indeed, this opens a can of worms the size of the first post: I listed some 20-odd characteristics exhibited by MitD. You suggest we discard everything under "abilities", but have no reason for such discard other than "we haven't found anything that matches". Equally, someone else could simply decide to discard everything under "Physical Characteristics". Or some random combination, picking and choosing. And then, yes, anything fits. But it leaves us exactly were we started: without matching your guess to what actually happens in the strip, there is no way to gauge how appropriate it is.

Well, you pretty much are answering yourself. Instead of that chaos you describe, of random picking, we could use a little brain here. "Escape" is not expected by Redcloak or Xykon, and doesn't look like a Dungeons And Dragons ability, so I would start working from there. "Physical characteristics", on the other hand, we have no reason to suspect, as RedCloak recognized him, as well as the Big Game Hunters, without ever expressing that MiTD has a different appearance from other members of its race.

[Math_Mage]

Well, that means we have a relatively stringent list of constraints on MitD's identity if he's not in D&D, so the question is if there's anything that fits those constraints.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

that list is your personal view on the subject.

Excuse me? The list of characteristics is the agreed conclussion of the old thread, plus the first 10 pages of this one. There is as little of my personal opinion as I can manage. I referenced the strip as often as I could, and dropped everything that had no evidence in its favour. On top of that, I tried to present all the relevant views on the subject for each given characteristic, as evident from the "take into account" sections. That you dismiss what was days of work as "my personal view on the subject" is both dumb and offensive.

I was just expressing what I feel may be the truth. I am sorry if this is "inconvenient", as I am sure what many people is expecting is finding an exact match from a DnD book. I think it's obvious now that an exact match does not exist.

What you "feel" is irrelevant. Please see below how your "feelings" would have led us directly to the wrong avenue of search - indeed a major inconvenience.

Rich talks about a "fine line". So pretty likely yes, a few of those 20-odd characteristics are probably not from the creature type. If we had to guess what Bilbo Baggings is from some random behavior facts, we may quickly rule out all creatures without "invisibility at will". Yet it's a Hobbit that due to plot, has found The One Ring. Get what I mean?

Yes, I understand what you mean. I am unsure you understand what I mean, though. You have decided that by cherry picking the characteristics you feel most comfortable with we can find the correct solution. However, you have no reason to choose those characteristics as opposed to the others, and in your defence all you have is that the full set does not match anything you can think of.

And that is a poor example: Bilbo was never hidden, we never had the author tell us that we could guess what it was, etc. As such, I fail to see how it helps your case. Most people in this thread, I'd assume, are working under the assumption that Rich was not lying to us when he said it was guessable. If it then turns out to be Bilbo with a new magic ring that turns him into MitD, then that is not guessable. And yet by your "method", we could reach that conclusion - you just need to write enough backstory to explain how Bilbo came to be MitD. Since this "method" delivers everything under the sun, 99% of all you suggest will fit and yet be false positives. I don't see that "method" is any good.

Well, you pretty much are answering yourself. Instead of that chaos you describe, of random picking, we could use a little brain here. "Escape" is not expected by Redcloak or Xykon, and doesn't look like a Dungeons And Dragons ability, so I would start working from there. Physical characteristics, we have no reason to suspect, as RedCloak would have noticed.

Ah, yes, what a wonderful method you suggest. If only I had some "brain" to see your magnificent insight. Just discard the escape, you say, and everything will be easier.

Pity we know from Rich's words that MitD did cause the escape. And what a better example of how utterly useless your approach is: you have, off the bat, discarded the most important clue, because you couldn't figure it out. That is exactly what I meant when I suggested your "method" was useless.

Well, that means we have a relatively stringent list of constraints on MitD's identity if he's not in D&D, so the question is if there's anything that fits those constraints.

It doesn't really mean it's not D&D. It is very tricky to find teleportation powers before modern times, funnily enough. In the old times, the concept was completely foreign to their tales. Most heroes, gods, etc. moved around with flaming chariots and winged horses and so on, not just by popping in and out of existence.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

Do you have any relevant experience with trademark and/or copyright law on which you're basing this? Or are you just wanting to discard an inconvenient problem?

I have never actually myself been served with a lawsuit due to copyright infringement, if that is what you mean

I was merely making an observation, that if Rich was going to be sued over copyright infringements then it would already have happened due to his foray into the world of D&D. I can not for the life of me imagine that anyone would file a lawsuit over copyright issues if MitD turned out to be, say, Batman or Godzilla. Plenty of intellectual property has been and is being referenced and poked fun of without it resulting in a stream of lawsuits. Just look at the number of spoofs on Star Wars, Lord of The Rings, Cthulhu, Marvel and DC comics, etc. There is such a thing as fair use and since MitD is not the main protagonist of the story I sincerely doubt it would pose a problem.

That said, I do consider the copyright issue thing to be an inconvenient problem as well as an unnecessary one. IMO it is not that big of a problem. Any lawsuit as a result of the identity of MitD would never make it to court -even in country where people sue each other left and right

[Silaor]

First poster here so I hope I don't make too much of a fool of myself, but I think the point DavidBV was trying to make by discarding the Escape is that since among the persons who, in-comic, know what the MitD is, none thought that it was responsible for it. We may know, the roaches may know (but anyway they seem to know a lot more thatn anyone else in-comic, except maybe the Oracle), but Redcloak and Xykon don't. That suggest that is not a common ability (or side effect of an ability) for this type of creature, which could put it in the same category as 'speech' or 'jungle habitat' : things that the MitD exhibits, but on which we can't really base our guesses.

And I'll add that even if it wasn't what DavidBV was trying to say, it's still something to consider. Apologies if it was already discussed before, I read the first post and followed this thread on and off but it could have slipped by me.

[Kish]

Unless I'm failing to remember something from Start of Darkness, Xykon's never claimed to know what the creature in the darkness is. So the total list of people who have explicitly claimed to know what he is goes:

Redcloak
One now-dead hobgoblin who answered fan mail

Redcloak's knowledge about the Escape consists of having his boss shout in his face "lotsofwords and then popped out of here without a trace!lotsofwordsPHYLACTERYno you aren't regenerating your eye!" I don't think we should take Redcloak's...priorities in the situation...as indicating that he is unaware that the creature in the darkness is of a species that can, in some fashion, teleport others.

That said, I thought what DavidBV meant was that we should look for outside-of-D&D creatures who can teleport others, not that we should disregard the Escape as irrelevant. To which my response would be: If you have any in mind, let's hear it. If not, let's not privilege non-D&D monsters above D&D monsters, since while no one's proposed a D&D monster that fits perfectly, no one's proposed a non-D&D monster that comes close.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have never actually myself been served with a lawsuit due to copyright infringement, if that is what you mean

No, what she meant was if you are an IP lawyer. It'd be nice to have a professional opinion on the matter.

I was merely making an observation, that if Rich was going to be sued over copyright infringements then it would already have happened due to his foray into the world of D&D.

His foray is clearly derivative parody. He would have a good case against WotC. Furthermore, WotC makes a living of people creating stories in their system. Yes, most are RPGs, but stories with their creatures are also common. They would have a hard time attacking any of them, since their IP is meant for that purpose.

No, WotC is not the problem party.

I can not for the life of me imagine that anyone would file a lawsuit over copyright issues if MitD turned out to be, say, Batman or Godzilla.

And yet when one browser had godzilla as their icon, they got sued, as has been brought up in this thread before. Do not underestimate the willingness of big companies with idle bored lawyers to defend their intellectual property.

Plenty of intellectual property has been and is being referenced and poked fun of without it resulting in a stream of lawsuits. Just look at the number of spoofs on Star Wars, Lord of The Rings, Cthulhu, Marvel and DC comics, etc. There is such a thing as fair use and since MitD is not the main protagonist of the story I sincerely doubt it would pose a problem.

Two problems: one thing is to parody (or "poke fun of") and another to develop a story around a character. Second, MitD is a main character. Not a main protagonist, but a main antagonist. A lawyer would have little trouble showing how many times he is in the comic, 100% with no parody involved.

And that is the crux of the matter. Illithid appearances, followed by a joke about them being trademarked (and forcibly removed), yes. The cast of FF, in Rich's style, followed by a joke about differences in the RPG systems, dangerous, but ultimately ok. Throwaway gags about pokeballs: good to go.

Putting Mickey Mouse as one of the trio of antagonists of your story, and then sell that for money, and not make fun of the fact he is mickey Mouse? Disney falls on you like a ton of bricks, sues you for all you are worth. They have done it before, they will do so again, and spent billions on politicians to make sure that Mickey remains IP of the company.

Every other major company (square, nintendo, etc) does the exact same thing.

Admittedly, I am not a lawyer. If an IP lawyer comes and tells us otherwise, I will reconsider trademarked-protected characters (and then Snorlax will come back with a vengeance, believe me). But I read quite a bit about IP law when writing the first post, and it is a fine line to walk when doing parody or commentary or other fair uses, and MitD clearly is not covered.

by discarding the Escape is that since among the persons who, in-comic, know what the MitD is, none thought that it was responsible for it. We may know, the roaches may know (but anyway they seem to know a lot more thatn anyone else in-comic, except maybe the Oracle), but Redcloak and Xykon don't. That suggest that is not a common ability (or side effect of an ability) for this type of creature, which could put it in the same category as 'speech' or 'jungle habitat' : things that the MitD exhibits, but on which we can't really base our guesses.

I will not touch what DavidBV meant again without his input. As to your point, Xykon was distracted, and we know he considers MitD a good-for-nothing moron. RC wasn't even in the room, and no-one has really told him what happened. As Kish points out*, we don't really know that Xykon has ever bothered to ask what MitD is (being happy to know he is ugly, hungry and strong). And we have had quite a bit of ideas thrown in about why RC is not making use of MitD's ability to teleport (or whatever it is). Off the top of my head:
- He got a low Knowledge roll, and thus knows only MitD's species, physical abilities but not SLA
- He knows everything he could be capable of, but after trying to get him to do so, and MitD showing his usual incompetence, RC decided he was not powerful (fits particularly well if the SLAs are psionic-based)

Grey Wolf

*Kish did forget two characters that know what MitD is: the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, but that is neither here nor there in this case

[DavidBV]

That you dismiss what was days of work as "my personal view on the subject" is both dumb and offensive.

What you "feel" is irrelevant.

I don't see that "method" is any good.

If only I had some "brain" to see your magnificent insight.

Woah, that was completely uncalled for, I never insulted you in any way, yet you seem ready to take discrepance as a personal challenge. This is your thread, you sometimes take ideas from others and sometimes you don't, as you see fit. Don't try to give it an appearance of democracy or scientific method, because it really isn't either, nor it should be! Nor pretend that, because you invested long hours on it, it can't be questioned.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I am unsure you understand what I mean, though. You have decided that by cherry picking the characteristics you feel most comfortable with we can find the correct solution. However, you have no reason to choose those characteristics as opposed to the others, and in your defence all you have is that the full set does not match anything you can think of.

Cherry picking, you say. Except that I mention in the last paragraph why I choose that. And please, NO ONE is able to think of a full match, not just me.

And that is a poor example: Bilbo was never hidden, we never had the author tell us that we could guess what it was, etc. As such, I fail to see how it helps your case. Most people in this thread, I'd assume, are working under the assumption that Rich was not lying to us when he said it was guessable. If it then turns out to be Bilbo with a new magic ring that turns him into MitD, then that is not guessable. And yet by your "method", we could reach that conclusion - you just need to write enough backstory to explain how Bilbo came to be MitD. Since this "method" delivers everything under the sun, 99% of all you suggest will fit and yet be false positives. I don't see that "method" is any good.

Huh?

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry, honestly. You really think I am saying Biblo is the MiTD or something? What I am saying is that MiTD may have been "blessed" with some skills/powers beyond his common race, as bilbo was, and that "blessing" or "uniqueness" may still be guessable, at some point, as it would be plot related. Remember the "eventually" and "fine line" arguments you purposely ignored?

That is the slowest and easiest I can explain it, and yes, feel free to be offended as this time I really doubt you have been very inspired.

Pity we know from Rich's words that MitD did cause the escape. And what a better example of how utterly useless your approach is: you have, off the bat, discarded the most important clue, because you couldn't figure it out. That is exactly what I meant when I suggested your "method" was useless.

Excuse me???????

You imply that I am saying the MiTD did not cause the Escape, which I have never said (or thought!). MiTD caused Escape, obviously, and I know that since the time I read that strip.

I won't waste any more time dealing with you at all, have a nice trip.

Unless I'm failing to remember something from Start of Darkness, Xykon's never claimed to know what the creature in the darkness is. So the total list of people who have explicitly claimed to know what he is goes:

Redcloak
One now-dead hobgoblin who answered fan mail

Redcloak's knowledge about the Escape consists of having his boss shout in his face "lotsofwords and then popped out of here without a trace!lotsofwordsPHYLACTERYno you aren't regenerating your eye!" I don't think we should take Redcloak's...priorities in the situation...as indicating that he is unaware that the creature in the darkness is of a species that can, in some fashion, teleport others.

That said, I thought what DavidBV meant was that we should look for outside-of-D&D creatures who can teleport others, not that we should disregard the Escape as irrelevant. To which my response would be: If you have any in mind, let's hear it. If not, let's not privilege non-D&D monsters above D&D monsters, since while no one's proposed a D&D monster that fits perfectly, no one's proposed a non-D&D monster that comes close.

Well, don't forget the Big Game hunters, they, too, know.

And Xykon? Well, my guess is it's logical that he asked Redcloak. Or at least he would want to have the information of what it can do. He usually uses every resource to his advantage, and I am not sure but I seem to remember that at some point he called the MiTD to be "formidable".

Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting creature in a cage, without any supervision. A very childish and silly creature that is capable of casting 9-ish level spells or SLA's is a danger if it's not under complete control, and in fact see what happened with Escape.

My gut is, it IS a D&D base creature, but some of its powers, and certainly Escape, don't come from its racial base, but from some plot-related even that goes back to its origins. It may be guessable, quoting Rich, Eventually, how it acquired such powers. That's why Redcloak and Xykon treats him like just a big strong monster.

[Grugnar]

I'm definately thinking he's from a setting outside of D&D. Or at least outside of core. If he is from D&D, it'll be from one of the older settings, like Darksun or something. That, or from a well known but non-D&D fantasy setting, like Lord of the Rings. How about a young Balrog or something? They're powerful, don't talk, and are draped in shadows (not flames).

[Kish]

Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting mob in a cage.

I'm quite certain that whatever he is, he's not a mob.

[DavidBV]

I'm quite certain that whatever he is, he's not a mob.

LOL, you got me, too many Everquest years are hard to forget :)

Edited.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Woah, that was completely uncalled for, I never insulted you in any way,

Neither have I insulted you, only criticised your method, just as you made derogatory comments about both my ability to understand you and the rational basis of this thread.

Huh?

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry, honestly. You really think I am saying Biblo is the MiTD or something? What I am saying is that MiTD may have been "blessed" with some skills/powers beyond his common race, as bilbo was, and that "blessing" or "uniqueness" may still be guessable, at some point, as it would be plot related. Remember the "eventually" and "fine line" arguments you purposely ignored?

No, I think you have no idea what MitD is. Which is not the problem. The problem is the "method" or "logic" you are suggesting: discarding evidence and saying that "the backstory will account for the abilities it cannot posses". I have told you, now for the third time, that such "method" is useless, since it can apply to anything. Bilbo with a magical ring. Sauron with a magical ring. A faun with an interesting backstory. A potted plant that was in the path of the wrong kind of spell. The son of Alternate Reality Xykon with Future Haley, sent back into the past. Etc, ad nauseam. It tells us nothing, it gives us nothing, it provides no useful avenues of research, and there is no way to discard any alternative, because it is unconstrained. There are 26 "one-off" ideas in the first post. Each and every one of them could fit as MitD given enough backstory like the one you suggest. And that is why what you suggest is useless.

Excuse me???????

You imply that I am saying the MiTD did not cause the Escape, which I have never said (or thought!). MiTD caused Escape, obviously, and I know that since the time I read that strip.

Yes, you did suggest it, by extension of your method. Don't like the escape? Bah, don't consider it, must be backstory. Your creature is too big? Ignore it, think some amusing backstory.

Dread Linnorm has major problems fitting as MitD because it has two heads, which could be as simple as a mis-encounter with an axe. And yet. I don't pretend to sweep it under the rug.

Yes, maybe there will be in the future some backstory that explains how he caused the escape. Or why he is so small. Or how he can crack the earth with a half-hearted stomp. And then, and only then, will it be logical to consider such thing as part of the evidence. Until then, "making up his backstory so it fits" remains a fruitless avenue of enquiry.

Also, I doubt redcloak would keep a powerful spellcasting mob in a cage. A very silly creature that is capable of casting 9-ish level spells or SLA is a danger if it's not under complete control, and in fact see what happened with Escape.

Rich already hang a lampshade on that fact. From the very first scene, MitD has always been capable of escaping every box he's been put in - including the one RC had to drag onto a cart to rescue him from the circus. It is MitD's personality, and not his powers, that keeps him in the boxes, under the umbrella, etc. Regardless of whether RC knows or not MitDs full capabilities, which as far as I am concerned is an open question as of this moment.

Grey Wolf

[Asta Kask]

I'm definately thinking he's from a setting outside of D&D. Or at least outside of core. If he is from D&D, it'll be from one of the older settings, like Darksun or something. That, or from a well known but non-D&D fantasy setting, like Lord of the Rings. How about a young Balrog or something? They're powerful, don't talk, and are draped in shadows (not flames).

They are also copyrighted. And the Tolkiens are very touchy about their IP.

[hamishspence]

Which, I think, came up way back in very early D&D editions.

That's why we now have Balors, Treants, and Halflings.

[Gift Jeraff]

Putting Mickey Mouse as one of the trio of antagonists of your story, and then sell that for money, and not make fun of the fact he is mickey Mouse? Disney falls on you like a ton of bricks, sues you for all you are worth. They have done it before, they will do so again, and spent billions on politicians to make sure that Mickey remains IP of the company.

Mickey Mouse was actually a pretty evil villain on an episode of South Park.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which, I think, came up way back in very early D&D editions.

That's why we now have Balors, Treants, and Halflings.

And only because of prior art we don't also have "shortlings" for dwarves and "pointy-earling" for elves, I'm sure. Yes, the Tolkiens are a tad unreasonable about what JRR made up, and it is a sad testament to how twisted IP laws are that concepts like hobbits have not been allowed to become part of folklore, and very much, I believe, against JRR's wishes of creating a British mythology.

Mickey Mouse was actually a pretty evil villain on an episode of South Park.

Don't watch SP, but isn't it pretty much a parody of (whatever is in the episode)? Did they make fun of Disney? Mind you, just by turning goody-two-shoes Mickey into an evil villain is pretty much parody already...

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Its more the names, than the creatures themselves. I don't think Hobbit had been used as a name before Tolkien- but I do recall small humans that were very like hobbits in Robin Hood stories, among other things.

The concept of small, secretive human tribes has been around for a very long time.

[Watcher]

Why did MitD's music change?