OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Nymrod]

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.



This has been proposed many times, and the general consensus is that this would actually make it easier for the Gate to be found.

The fact that the dungeon has a teleport trap that redirects anyone who doesn't spot it on a wild goose chase seems like plenty enough misdirection while remaining practical.

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision. Finally also weird they did not just try to circumvent the entire dungeon issue after this long by using Passwall or Etherealness (a tactic Xykon is known to use). The latter probably would NOT work since this is clearly a form of rock that blocks teleportation and likely divination but the former absolutely would.

[Vikenlugaid]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

[danielxcutter]

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision. Finally also weird they did not just try to circumvent the entire dungeon issue after this long by using Passwall or Etherealness (a tactic Xykon is known to use). The latter probably would NOT work since this is clearly a form of rock that blocks teleportation and likely divination but the former absolutely would.

The rock also explicitly prevents him from using Ghostform - that’s because incorporeal and ethereal creatures exist on the Ethereal Plane and the rock blocks off all forms of planar travel.

[Gurgeh]

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision.

If you mean Arcane Sight, I'd imagine it's not being used because it's a Sor/Wiz spell (so Redcloak can't cast it) and Xykon probably has a bunch of other third-level spells he figured were more valuable.

[ziproot]

Serini is forgetting the power of action economy a team. Also, I don't remember the last time Order of the Stick made me laugh, but this comic did.*

"5 stars. Would be rescued again"

*Not to say that in a bad way. The Order of the Stick has shifted towards a more drama-oriented comic and it has done a good job of it, if the long threads of people arguing about Serini mean anything.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder if it's dawned on Serini that Xykon beat each of her friends and her ALONE, and that he only really beat Dorukan and Soon (the latter of whom she doesn't seem to be aware he "defeated") due to psychological warfare or pure unadulterated luck.

The grim irony being he's managed to defeat her by making her think those were all normal fights. She's thinking like Kraagor would rather than how a rogue would.

Is she? Or is the point that it doesn't matter if he was lucky, the fact that their power levels were close enough luck could swing it mean that he's still way more powerful than anyone she knows?

Also, the fact that he's good at psykops would make him MORE powerful (or at least more likely to win fights) not less.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

That's not Luck.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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That's a God planning for things or building contingencies into his Super Artifact better than Lirian could counter.

(...skipping ahead)

I just realized that O-Chul may be vastly overestimating V. We, the Readers, know that it is the MitD that got him out of trouble, before. But O-Chul may assume that V pulled out some magic that is beyond his understanding.

Which would be quite rude of her, since she had just said she didn't have any magic that could be used for escape.

Serini's behavior certainly isn't terribly rational... but at least she's correct in understanding the role of casters in the hierarchy. If Dorukan and Lirian were beaten, she's got no chance on her own... except she's not on her own, and the other side has casters too, and a pet monster that is a living, unlimited anti-caster device.

If that caster wasn't also strong enough to solve a lot of his fights by physically beating people with whatever blunt object is nearby.

Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity.

Noone who wasn't already getting tortured for eternity in the "bad afterlives". Well, unless Xykon being in charge makes people renounce Good or Neutral and go live a life of Evil...

That's the other, more subtle destruction of Xykon winning. While the destruction of a secret order of Paladins may not be the huge morale loss it would be in other campaigns where the Paladins are more overt forces for Good, each destruction of a Bastion of Good, and each time he destroys a Defender of Good, the more demoralizing it could be to the remaining Good people. Thus, the suffering he instills, and the misery he spreads goes far beyond the actual people he murders directly or lands he conquers into a widespread abandonment of Good in the face of inexorable Evil.

It's basically Piccolo's whole deal.

[Oromin]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

Ummm... Could we table this discussion please? It's getting uncomfortably close to "When is suicide an acceptable answer to your problems?" At least for me. Or maybe I should just stop reading the thread...

[schmunzel]

Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.

The point ist they havnt said anything meaningful yet.

The only two having said anything of substance were the two Paladins - and they were not able to sway her for reasons I can understand.
I agree with the foreposters that she needs some emotional back up - like the story of oChul being rescued from the Lich by V (and better not the full story) or (and) Sunny being friends with Elan and getting healed.

As much as I like a good old chekhov's cauldron - I cant see what it would accomplish. The poison will wipe the characters memory at the plots discretion
- making the old Lady forget who she is thus denying us exposition or a (tedious?) history lesson - meh
- making the old Lady forget her fear of Xykon ? - that sounds cheap to me.
- have Belkar fall in for comedic relieve? - that might happen ...

An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

that

I fail to see how she will adopt that line of thought though - unless Belkar starts raging right now - what will emotionally tie the order to the (other) order?

sch

[bunsen_h]

People can judge Serini for her actions, but I want to point out the following ways Serini has been traumatized:

• She saw Kraagor get erased by the Snarl. Although it is not stated, I suspect the Order of the Scribble tried to resurrect Kraagor, and their failure to do so likely makes Serini fear the Snarl more than anything.

I'm not sure if it's possible in OotS-world for someone to be resurrected if their body is completely gone. Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death. And I don't think we've encountered any mention of the Wish spell, which is the level of magic needed to recreate a destroyed body.

Another one you can count me out for, although I find it less implausible than any "Belkar's death won't involve him actually, really dying" theories.

I'm not confident about it, but the Oracle's phrasing not saying anything specific about dying does suggest that it may be a weird prophecy-fulfilling thing rather than a straightforward event. Story-wise, I'm am confident that it will be a heroic end, with Belkar knowingly sacrificing himself so others will survive.

I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

It's an octuple bluff!

Hang on, the rock faces with the doors are literally a double bluff. Hm.

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other.

It's achievable mundanely by having a long hallway behind each door, diverging from the cliff faces, so the dungeons are spread out in the region.

Noone who wasn't already getting tortured for eternity in the "bad afterlives".

And not "eternally", since Rich has described the process of souls gradually merging into the stuff of the outer planes

[DaOldeWolf]

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

That is the detail, most of what they know requires a more in depth talking to actually serve a purpose. Its like that time when Roy knew about Durkon´s exile being over but bringing it up with no context served no purpose. Spewing random information they know sounds like a poor solution. They know nothing about what she knows and how she thinks. That is the whole point in engaging in meaningful conversation. So far, she doesnt seem interested in hearing what they have to say.

The point ist they havnt said anything meaningful yet.

What is the point of meaningful truths if there is no engagement? Dont tell me that you expect to change someone´s mind without it.

[dancrilis]

Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death.

I don't believe that is accurate.

And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

(Also, with regards to the Gating a Solar thing: The "fair trade" price a Solar would ask for resurrecting an evil dragon would simply be the mother dragon's own life—because that would be a Good act of self-sacrifice, and the Solar would approve of that. There's no reason to think the mother dragon would be willing to pay that price...and even if she was, she would insist on punishing V first, since her son was relatively weak.)

'Not available to everyone' is not the same as 'not available to anyone', and he effectively confirms that a Solar could do it - further Haley believes it exists (panel 7) and makes reference to it again in panel 5.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.

I think the order could try better to tell her things, even while fighting, I mean, Durkon and Minrah kept giving arguments to Redcloak while they were fighting, here the order is only saying "listen to us, we are important!!" Without saying anything, they could use all of those words saying something at least: "the gods have told us really important things!!", "If Xykon is not stopped they will destroy the world!!", "We need to turn the goblin to our side to beat the Snarl for good"... You know, things that Serini could actually react at.

[Metastachydium]

I think the order could try better to tell her things

Perhaps, but do take into consideration that by the time they realised they are dealing with Serini,
1. the two members of the Order that would have been the best suited to explain things were incapacitated and
2. they got Serini restrained so they thought they have more time to bring things up organically.
Once Serini broke loose, things started happening fast enough that I can't blame them for not shouting perfectly informative concise infodumps at her.

The Durkon/Minrah/Redcloak thing is not a perfect analogy either, since that was a bad plan they planned for. Here they were ambushed by someone they didn't know was alive.

(Also, you went through the trouble to dig up my post from all the way back to page 3? I'm honoured.)

[schmunzel]

That is the detail, most of what they know requires a more in depth talking to actually serve a purpose. Its like that time when Roy knew about Durkon´s exile being over but bringing it up with no context served no purpose. Spewing random information they know sounds like a poor solution. They know nothing about what she knows and how she thinks. That is the whole point in engaging in meaningful conversation. So far, she doesnt seem interested in hearing what they have to say.

What is the point of meaningful truths if there is no engagement? Dont tell me that you expect to change someone´s mind without it.

... To be fair there was an engagement. ...

Youre probably right though Im not inclined to listen to people shooting arrows at my behind either so I happily havnt blamed anyone for it, yet :)

sch

[Vikenlugaid]

Perhaps, but do take into consideration that by the time they realised they are dealing with Serini,
1. the two members of the Order that would have been the best suited to explain things were incapacitated and
2. they got Serini restrained so they thought they have more time to bring things up organically.
Once Serini broke loose, things started happening fast enough that I can't blame them for not shouting perfectly informative concise infodumps at her.

The Durkon/Minrah/Redcloak thing is not a perfect analogy either, since that was a bad plan they planned for. Here they were ambushed by someone they didn't know was alive.

(Also, you went through the trouble to dig up my post from all the way back to page 3? I'm honoured.)

Yeah, is not a fatal mistake, but still Haley shouting "listen to us!" in this strip strikes me as terribly repetitive.
Haley is smart and charismatic, and she should understand pretty well this "i don't trust anyone" mood, please...

[Hurkyl]

I'm not sure if it's possible in OotS-world for someone to be resurrected if their body is completely gone. Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death. And I don't think we've encountered any mention of the Wish spell, which is the level of magic needed to recreate a destroyed body.

In #0634, Director Lee explains that V will not be allowed to duplicate any divine magic via Wish or Limited Wish.

[Ruck]

Can't speak for Daniel, but I do think there are things we learned.

For example. we learned that Serini's belief that the paladins/order can't beat Xykon arises from Xykon beating her and her friends, rather than any any sort of real assessment of the Order or Paladin's abilities.

And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.

Well, most of the defendants were saying she had some sort of actual plan and her reasoning was solid.

That’s not really the case.

Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.

I'm not confident about it, but the Oracle's phrasing not saying anything specific about dying does suggest that it may be a weird prophecy-fulfilling thing rather than a straightforward event. Story-wise, I'm am confident that it will be a heroic end, with Belkar knowingly sacrificing himself so others will survive.

The thing I keep coming back to is-- I buy this reasoning if someone had paid for a prophecy and asked the Oracle "When will Belkar draw his last breath?" The Oracle does have a history of answering in overly technical fashion ("In his throne room") or in a vague manner that isn't necessarily useful ("posthumously").

But nobody asked the Oracle that. He just keeps making cracks about how Belkar is going to die, using metaphorical language, then more or less explicitly tells Roy so. I don't see why he would do all that if Belkar isn't going to die-- the Oracle practically gets a kick out of the thought of Belkar dying.

[Hurkyl]

And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.

She might even know that a Sapphire Guard paladin soloed their entire party! Twice!

Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.

Right. My position on that has always been "I can tell her I'm not convinced, but I can't tell her she's wrong".

[Liquor Box]

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

Spoiler: Spoilers for NWN2: MotB

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The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more.

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

There's so much in the question of whether Xykon ruling the world would be better or worse than the Snarl destroying it.

There's a huge amount of question of what might happen if Xykon rules. Would he be overthrown sooner or later, or at all. Would he be able to blackmail the gods like Redcloak intends, or even become a god like the Dark One did?

There's also all the value judgments of whether there are fates worse than death. Whichis such a loaded discussion that I think it better not to have.

[Wraithfighter]

Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.

Sure, if all you care about is preventing a gate from being destroyed and not the whole, you know, reason why the gate being destroyed would be bad. If Xykon were to use the power of the Gate to massacre everyone on the planet, turn them into a host of evil abominations and use the world as a launching point for an invasion of other planes of existence, using the Snarl itself to destroy entire Heavens worth of people, would Serini be going "Welp, I did my part to prevent the Gate from being destroyed, not my fault"?

That viewpoint you're describing is just... myopic. Serini's aware of the power of the Snarl, she's aware that an entire freakin' pantheon got devoured by it, she knows Xykon wants the Gate, she knows that Xykon is an Epic-level Lich Sorcerer, she has to factor in the sort of potentially insane things that Xykon could do with the gate into her planning.

(and no, this is not "therefore she should destroy the gate", just that a low chance of success is infinitely preferable to zero chance of success)

The thing I keep coming back to is-- I buy this reasoning if someone had paid for a prophecy and asked the Oracle "When will Belkar draw his last breath?" The Oracle does have a history of answering in overly technical fashion ("In his throne room") or in a vague manner that isn't necessarily useful ("posthumously").

But nobody asked the Oracle that. He just keeps making cracks about how Belkar is going to die, using metaphorical language, then more or less explicitly tells Roy so. I don't see why he would do all that if Belkar isn't going to die-- the Oracle practically gets a kick out of the thought of Belkar dying.

...mostly agreed. I do think that folks are too eager to try to rules lawyer the prophecy about Belkar because he's a fun character and has developed a lot and we don't want to see him die. 99.9% odds, right now, are that there's no shenanigans going on, Belkar's gonna for-real die soon.

...

That said.

The Oracle's a butthole. Sure, he's a butt because he knows that everyone he interacts with is going to hate him eventually, but that's usually because he's such a prick to them beforehand that they start hating him out of retaliation.

I'm just saying, I'm willing to reserve a 0.1% chance that the Oracle's screwing with us for the lols.

Yes. With us. Through the fourth wall. Because of course he would, that dink.

[Larsaan]

Haley is smart and charismatic, and she should understand pretty well this "i don't trust anyone" mood, please...

Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

[Liquor Box]

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I don't think it will be any of those sorts of key information that changes Serini's mind. I think it will be making her see that Xykon was able to defeat the Scribblers because they didn't stick together and he picked them off one by one. The Order is stronger because they are a group, and stronger still because they work with others. And Serini is perpetuating that mistake right now by resisting working with anyone else - as a group they could beat Xykon.

But that would involve her confronting the possibility her pushing to split up the Scribblers was actually a bad move, something that she might struggle to do.

Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

Yes, this. The Order has no way to know why Serini has suddenly attacked them. They'd be entitled to simply kill her, and they certainly wouldn't ant to work with her anymore if it wasn't required for the story.

And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.

You asked what we learned - what we learned was that Serini's opinion that the order/paladins couldn't beat Xykon arose from her view he was unbeatable because he beat her and her friends, not because of anything specific about the Order.


Whether that opinion is a reasonable one to hold it is a different question. And the answer is that it clearly isn't. Serini set up an encounter designed to play on the Order's precise weaknesses, ambushed them by surprise with a host of allied monsters, had an unlikely degree of luck with the Order's save rolls and still managed to lose.

[pyrefiend]

Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I agree with this. I'd also add that, given the strangeness of Serini's actions (from the Order's perspective) it's not clear that they should trust her with secrets about the Gates—at least until they figure out what her deal is. If I were Haley, I'd seriously suspect that Serini had been charmed by Xykon or something.

[Vikenlugaid]

Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

"I decide who is on my side"

Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I don't think it will be any of those sorts of key information that changes Serini's mind. I think it will be making her see that Xykon was able to defeat the Scribblers because they didn't stick together and he picked them off one by one. The Order is stronger because they are a group, and stronger still because they work with others. And Serini is perpetuating that mistake right now by resisting working with anyone else - as a group they could beat Xykon.

That's why I used the verb "try". I am not saying it will work, bit at least they could try.
And yes, they tried to communicate... That's my point, they only said her "listen to us!" They never told her anything, that's not really communication.

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

God, they didn't even tell her "we are not here to take the gate, we want to stop Xykon"... They totally suck.

Serini doesn't have any reason to stop fighting them.

I agree with this. I'd also add that, given the strangeness of Serini's actions (from the Order's perspective) it's not clear that they should trust her with secrets about the Gates—at least until they figure out what her deal is. If I were Haley, I'd seriously suspect that Serini had been charmed by Xykon or something.

If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

[Ruck]

Whether that opinion is a reasonable one to hold it is a different question. And the answer is that it clearly isn't.

Clearly isn't? I don't think that's clear at all. It might be wrong, but it's reasonable, considering Xykon dispatched the most powerful members of the Scribble, plus the Order's previous attempts to stop Xykon resulting in failure and destroyed Gates (as well as, in one case, the death of the party leader).

[Wraithfighter]

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

...huh.

Uh, question. How much does the Order know about Xykon's interactions with Lirian and her Gate, or him battling Dorukan?

Because they learned about Lirian from the Azurites, whose only knowledge was basically just "...uh, something happened there, maybe we should subcontract these jobs out to rangers or something next time".

And Dorukan, they didn't even know about him heading in there, and while "Dorukan lost the fight" can be inferred, for all the Order knows, there wasn't even a fight in the first place, Dorukan had a heart attack and Xykon moved in.

Just wondering if I missed anything on those fronts.

[Thermophille]

If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

Welp, sounds like the last few decades of work have just been a massive waste of time. I'm off.

[Liquor Box]

That's why I used the verb "try". I am not saying it will work, bit at least they could try.
And yes, they tried to communicate... That's my point, they only said her "listen to us!" They never told her anything, that's not really communication.

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

God, they didn't even tell her "we are not here to take the gate, we want to stop Xykon"... They totally suck.

Serini doesn't have any reason to stop fighting them.

Why would the 'try'? They have no reason to think that she's attacking them because she thinks they don't have important knowledge.

They had no reason to say "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" because they had no way of knowing that Serini was attacking them because her and her friends got curb stomped. The paladins know, because Serini told them, which is why Lien made the point.

They have no reason to say "We don't want the gate, we want Xykon", because they have know way of knowing Serini thinks they might want to destroy the gate.

All they know about Serini is that she didn't answer when they tried to message her, and now she has attacked them. How many rounds have there been in this fight? How many since they figured out who she is? They've probably known she is alive for less than a minute. The idea that they should have guessed some pretty improbably reasoning from her, with no information at all, and then said exactly the right thing to defuse her, is a bit ridiculous.

Clearly isn't? I don't think that's clear at all. It might be wrong, but it's reasonable, considering Xykon dispatched the most powerful members of the Scribble, plus the Order's previous attempts to stop Xykon resulting in failure and destroyed Gates (as well as, in one case, the death of the party leader).

It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.

Just wondering if I missed anything on those fronts.

I don't think you missed anything. While everyone has been careful to judge Serini's actions only on what she appears to know, it seems that same generosity is not being extended to the Order.

[pyrefiend]

If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

I just don't think there's been enough time for Haley to come up with this kind of calculated response. The Order expected (reasonably, I think) that Serini would be an ally. Then, about half a minute ago, Serini started attacking them without explanation. Given that, I think that maybe Haley's had time to quickly work through some salient possibilities (e.g. enchantment by Xykon) but I don't think she's had time for much more than that. She just knows that she's got to subdue Serini so she can figure out what is going on.

[DLcygnet]

Great callback!
5 stars, will laugh again.

Wait... is how Serini gets her comeuppance - by getting amnesia potion spilled on her? Then nobody will know where the gate is....