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Thread: Ways to Counter Mindsight
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2011-12-07, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Ways to Counter Mindsight
How can one counter the Mindsight feat? Assuming a Wizard dipped into Mindbender and then used their 6th level feat for Mindsight, how would you avoid his/her detection abilities?
Are there any items/feats/skills/spells that can circumvent Mindsight? Assume from an ECL 6 perspective please.
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2011-12-07, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
One could argue that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind does this. It is pretty much the only thing that does; the case for anything else is extremely poor.
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2011-12-07, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
First of all, Lords of Madness (the book it comes from) implies in the Illithid section that undead are immune to it, when they state that Illithids hate undead because (among other things) their psionic detection methods don't find them. This suggests that immunity to mind effecting protects you. This may be RAI... but note that by RAW, immunity to mind affecting doesn't protect you. So, that's something. But if the DM allows it, then Necropolitans could be immune.
There's a PrC in Fiendish Codex that makes telepathic static. This might also help, creating a blind spot in Mindsight's detection area that would hide a whole party.
And of course anything mindless (like zombies, skeletons, and golems) automatically bypasses it. So do enemies that just stay out of the 100 foot range (many archers, long range casters, etc).
But other that that... it's pretty darn tough to get around. Really the solution is not to get in range.
JaronK
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2011-12-07, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Self-Lobotomy.
What are the circumstances of the mindsight you are trying to avoid?
Are you a DM designing encounters to challenge a Wizard player?
Are you a player trying to get through a challenge the DM has set up with a mindsight Wizard?
Or are you trying to off an uppity fellow player that has mindsight?Last edited by Elric VIII; 2011-12-07 at 04:04 PM.
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2011-12-07, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Does your version of telepathy require line of effect? If so, full cover will remove you from mindsight.
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." Kurt Vonnegut
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2011-12-07, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
RAW, telepathy ignores line of effect. But it would make sense for it to be blocked by the same things that block many divinations, such as lead or a foot of stone.
One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.
JaronK
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2011-12-07, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2011-12-07, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
As per the other thread, Antimagic field on the sensor should work. That's a specialty tactic, because you must get very close without being observed. It makes Silent Antimagic Ray by a caster of level 32 worth considering.
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2011-12-07, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
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2011-12-07, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-07, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Cerebrex (Dragon 317, Dragon Compendium) gets telepathic immunity at lvl 5. Sadly the earliest you could do this lvl 10.
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2011-12-07, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-07, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
While it does function similarly to Blindsense it still is just an extension of Telepathy.
Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other
minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
with it telepathically
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2011-12-07, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-07, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Slayer6 does not grant immunity to mindsight unless you also think that mind blank does. It's fairly obvious that slayer6 and slayer 9 are supposed to give a slayer continuous mind blank, they just broke it up incrementally. They way the 6th level ability is worded, you could make an argument that it also foils regular eyesight, which is certainly another device that reveals location.
Telepathic Immunity (Su): A Cerebrex of 5th level is immune to all forms of telepathy or mind reading. She may suppress and reactivate this immunity at will, as a free action.
Superior invisibility does the trick, in my opinion, due to the following part:
...concealing the subject from all senses except touch.Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-07 at 05:54 PM.
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2011-12-07, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
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2011-12-07, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Line of Effect simply never says it effects telepathy, and nothing in game naturally blocks it (other than rare magic and PC effects). Basically, the default rule is you can telepathically talk to anyone within range... no rule counteracts this.
It's the same reason the Line of Effect rules don't necessarily block hearing... you can hear through a big sheet of paper just fine, because no rule says otherwise... even though you can't see through it (if it's dark paper, I guess) and line of effect is blocked.
JaronK
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2011-12-07, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
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2011-12-07, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." Kurt Vonnegut
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2011-12-07, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Are you actually trying to argue that Mindsight has nothing to do with Telepathy aside from it being a requirement and your argument to counter me is talking about archery? I'll reply but I'm gonna be half-hearted about it.
Rapid Shot is indeed a requirement for Manyshot, you know what else is a requirement to use either of those feats though? A ranged attack.
Mindsight repeatedly makes mention of Telepathy in the flavor textinnate telepathic abilitywithin range of its telepathy.
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2011-12-07, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
On page 78 of Lords of Madness, there is a list of effects and how they interact with the elder brain's ability to detect creatures through telepathy. In summary:
- Null psionic field will prevent the elder brain from detecting minds within. Assuming that psionics-magic transparency is in effect, so will antimagic field.
- Mind blank prevents detection.
- Nondetection can prevent detection, although there is a caster level check involved; in this case, the CL of the elder brain is equal to HD.
- Suspend life prevents detection, since the elder brain cannot detect corpses.
- Defenses that specifically protect against scrying, mind-reading, clairsentience and divination do not work (which is inconsistent with the ruling on nondetection, but I'm just telling you what the book says).
RAW, none of this is relevant to Mindsight at all. However, the elder brain's telepathic awareness is all but identical to Mindsight, and I think it would be reasonable for a DM to houserule that the same defenses apply.Last edited by The_Snark; 2011-12-07 at 06:21 PM.
Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2011-12-07, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Actually, from reading it, I think Cloud Mind should work:
First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.
Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends.Last edited by Eldan; 2011-12-07 at 06:37 PM.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2011-12-07, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
You guys are overthinking this. Darkstalker.
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2011-12-07, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
When the rules don't cover something, real world rules apply. So, scent through walls would apply as it does in the real world (as such, the permeability of the wall would be the real question... scent wouldn't go through a solid stone wall, but it would easily get through a looser log cabin wall). We don't have those rules for telepathy though, due to the lack of real world telepathy.
@Viktyr: Darkstalker only counters specific senses (Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense). It has no effect here, sadly. And it was printed in the same book, so this is unlikely to be an oversight.
@The_Snark: I'd agree with that from a RAI perspective. Not RAW, but seems reasonable. Also, the nondetection thing is completely arbitrary, but there you go.
JaronK
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2011-12-07, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
Flickerdart is both right and wrong because the text is not fully written out. Instead more information is attempted to be crammed into a smaller amount of space resulting in curmudgeon pointing out the 'normal:' text.
If this text is part of the rules, then where telepathy is impeded mindsight is also impeded (but as he rightly pointed out) would still continue to that telepathy's full range. If that part is not part of the rules flickerdart is completely right and ... nothing can stop mindsight.
I find it telling that the same book chose not to make use of this feat. A polymorphed spellweaver would do much better.
How do you know? It seems to me that any real practical case that would block the first would block the second aside from their trivial differences in actions/arrows at hand/et
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2011-12-07, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
I misinterpreted what you said then---I thought the claim was that mindsight is an Ex ability that goes to telepathy range irrespective of obstacles like AMF that block telepathy. This appears correct, RAW.
But while mindsight may be Ex, it has a prerequisite which is Su. If a caster level 32 AM-ray hit the mindsight target from range 105', the prerequisite would no longer be satisfied, which knocks out the mindsight feat. This also appears correct by RAW.
An alternative version of this logic is: if a fighter takes strength damage putting their strength below 13, they can no long power attack.
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2011-12-07, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-07, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
(Picking up this discussion from another thread.)
It shares more than the range. Here's what the feat says:- The header:A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. ...
- The Benefit section:Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. ...
- The Normal section:Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds. The creature has to know that a being is there ...
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2011-12-07, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
I'm not very keen on AMF and similar being a good counter to mindsight for different reasons. The sensory perception granted by mindsight is much the same as eyesight in how it operates, per the text. If you saw (with regular eyesight) a 20' diameter area of magical darkness walking around, would you be suspicious? To me, walking around with an AMF is an equivalent action against someone with mindsight. You (if you had mindsight) would notice a 20' bubble that shuts off your eyesight as much as you'd notice a 20' bubble that shut off mindsight, in my opinion. You wouldn't know anything about the contents, of course, but you'd still notice the bubble of darkness or antimagic.
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2011-12-07, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Counter Mindsight
I'm not inclined to agree. Mindsight is not as comprehensive as real sight; it doesn't let you perceive areas, it just pinpoints thinking beings. To extend your analogy, darkness is the natural state of things. The entire world is dark, except for thinking creatures, which register as little pinpoints of light. A ten-foot bubble without any thinking creatures in it isn't inherently unusual, any more than a patch of darkness in a dark cave would be.
Now, if you sense a creature suddenly winking out on your mindsight, or if you see a person but can't sense them with their thoughts, then you'd know something's up. But I don't think the field alone would register.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!