Warhammer 40K Tabletop XX: "Barrage is the new Precision Shot."

[Requizen]

If you can take Necron allies, Night Scythes are still pretty decent as flying anti-air.

[Squark]

Yeah, burn a hundred points on an Aegis line and quad gun. Alternatively, if all you want is flier defense, ally in some Hydras instead of Vendettas.

Didn't consider hydras, although they wouldn't work as well in a vehicle light list.

As for an Aegis, the problem is that the gun isn't sturdy enough on its own. It is very easy to knock the turret out if your opponent wants to rob you of flier defense.

[hamishspence]

Just checked my Tau codex and the Precision Shot wargear in there gets it right. I guess the writer of the IG AM codex forgot that Precision Shots isn't a special rule and that all ICs have it.

Precision Shots isn't a character rule - its a shots rule.

Characters: "All To Hit Rolls of 6 are Precision Shots"
Eldar Pathfinders (I think) "All To Hit Rolls of 5-6 are Precision Shots"
Illic Nightspear & Telion: "All shots are Precision Shots"
Sniper: "All To Hit rolls of 6 are Precision Shots"

Thus, I figure that Take Aim, and the Emperor's Benediction artefact, follow the existing precedent.

[Rakaydos]

So if I'm understanding this discussion, right, you can have an entire guard platoon focus their flashlights on the guy in artificer armor for a single order?

[Cheesegear]

So if I'm understanding this discussion, right, you can have an entire guard platoon focus their flashlights on the guy in artificer armor for a single order?

No. People aren't understanding the difference between Precision Shots, the rule, and Precision Shots, the thing that happens.

Take Aim!: All models have the Precision Shot special rule.
Precision Shots (special rule): If any of your character's shots roll a 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots.

Basically, it's the 'level' joke from OotS. No-one thought to look in a thesaurus, so we get confusion.

Also, you're doing Precision Shots wrong. You can make Look Out, Sir! rolls against Precision Shots (which is why Precision Shots are totally not what they say they are, Barrage is more accurate), you're better off focusing all of the flashlights against the guy with the Missile Launcher who has to take it.


Also, how do people pronounce Kor'Sarro? I say it exactly how it's spelled. But, I know a lot of people who pronounce it sharro.

[Rakaydos]

Also, you're doing Precision Shots wrong. You can make Look Out, Sir! rolls against Precision Shots (which is why Precision Shots are totally not what they say they are, Barrage is more accurate), you're better off focusing all of the flashlights against the guy with the Missile Launcher who has to take it.

That's true if you're only getting a handful op precision hits. But if the "every shot is an automatic precision shot" interpretation was correct, well... with 100 las shots, 50 hits, 33 wounds, 5.5 through LoS, almost 1 wound through Terminator armor.

[hamishspence]

No. People aren't understanding the difference between Precision Shots, the rule, and Precision Shots, the thing that happens.

Take Aim!: All models have the Precision Shot special rule.
Precision Shots (special rule): If any of your character's shots roll a 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots.

There is no "Precision Shots" special rule in the Special Rules section. Even in the character section, it's not laid out as a rule the character has, but as a rule their To Hit rolls of 6 have.

The Sharpshot rule for Telion (and its equivalent for Nightspear) say that all of their shots are Precision Shots.

It makes sense for this to be what "Take Aim" gets as well.

Otherwise, issuing the Take Aim order to a Ratling squad would be completely pointless.

As would the existence of the rule in the Emperor's Benediction weapon description.

[Drasius]

... Precision Shots are totally not what they say they are, Barrage is more accurate...

Also, how do people pronounce Kor'Sarro? I say it exactly how it's spelled. But, I know a lot of people who pronounce it sharro.

That should make it's way into the title of the next thr... oh, wait a minute! /sarcasm I C wot U did thar!

CoarseArro', but now you've made me think about it, he will forever be Cor, Blimey Khan. Thanks for ruining the White Scars for me Oh Mighty Cheesed One of Many Gears.

[Issabella]

OK Point differences between the New IG...ehhh Astra Militarum...and IA1 Vol 2. I am going to use the new IG book as the baseline (as more have access to that). Not doing vehicles that are FW exclusive now, such as the Vulture

Spoiler

Show

Equipment: Camo netting for IA is 5pts more (expected on an all vehicle list)

Chimera: IA's is 10pts cheaper, and retains the old firing points (until FaQ)

Scout Sentinals: Same points, but IA's has search lights auto included, and can take HK missiles or multiple rocket pod. but a H.flamer is a 5pt upgrade while free for IG.

Armoured Sentinal: IA's is 15pts more expensive, same equipment differences as above.

Vendetta: IA's is 40pts cheaper and still has scout and deep strike...for now

Hellhound Family
Hellhound: IA's is 5pt more, Devil dog 15pt's less!, banewolf the same. Multimelta's are 5pts more expensive for IA.

Hydra Flakk Battery: IA's is 5pts more expensive, still denies jink saves (worth 5pts I would say).

Basilisk: Same (except IA can take Medusa and Colossus bombard! so big edge to IA there!)

The 'Russ family!

Upgrades: IA pays 5pts more for the hull Lascannon, Sponsons are 10pts more expensive for H.flamer, same for H.bolter, 10pt more expensive on other options

Battle Tank: same
exterminator: 20pts more expensive
Vanquisher: 25pts more expensive
Eradicator: 30pts more expensive
Demolisher: 10pts cheaper
Punisher: 40pts more expensive
Executioner: 35 more expensive (without gets hot)

So wide variety of pt's differences yeah FW/GW communication.

[ZeltArruin]

Also, how do people pronounce Kor'Sarro? I say it exactly how it's spelled. But, I know a lot of people who pronounce it sharro.

As spelled.

I'm reminded of how some people pronounce C'tan with an 's' sound rather than the hard 'c'/'k' sound. Are they playing Nesrons, then? Sanoptek Wraiths?

[bluntpencil]

As spelled.

I'm reminded of how some people pronounce C'tan with an 's' sound rather than the hard 'c'/'k' sound. Are they playing Nesrons, then? Sanoptek Wraiths?

How do you pronounce 'Cyclone Missile Launcher'?

English, unlike Turkish and Korean, doesn't have a phonetic alphabet. Letters don't have one sound each.

[ZeltArruin]

How do you pronounce 'Cyclone Missile Launcher'?

English, unlike Turkish and Korean, doesn't have a phonetic alphabet. Letters don't have one sound each.

No, but there are correct and incorrect ways to pronounce things, even made up names. Basically, GW uses Tolkien for a lot of things, Eldar words, Necron, blah, Tolkien used hard c's in elvish, GW does the same with their made up words.

[Eldan]

How do you pronounce 'Cyclone Missile Launcher'?

English, unlike Turkish and Korean, doesn't have a phonetic alphabet. Letters don't have one sound each.

Hey, we might have Greeks here who prefer "Kyklone". Don't make assumptions.

[Issabella]

Elysian Drop Troops IA vol III, 2nd edition (most recent rules)

AKA: So I hear you like Valkyrie's and having a difficult army to transport...and possibly no friends at the end of the day!


Editor's Note:

Spoiler

Show

I lack IA 8, so no special character rules. Nor have I played Elysian's this is based of having the rules and a brother-in-law with the army.

The Elysians are the opposite of the mass swarm guard armies such Kreig, they can be considered a reverse of the other FW Imperial guard army The Armoured Battle Group (ABG). The Elysians play like guard with more manuverable options, no heavy armour, less heavy weapons, but more flyers then anyone save Necrons, and can infact out flyer even them. Every Elysian infantry has the OPTION of taking a Valkyrie. Note this means they do not always have too take the transport option unlike ABG where it is mandatory. The most current rules for the Elysians are in the Taros campaign, IA 3 second edition, with un-updated special characters still in IA 8 Raid on Kastorel-Novem.

Fluff wise the Elysians are supposed to be an elite void warfare and essentially a paratrooper esque regiment for the Imperial guard. Sadly the FW writers have a seriose snuff hard on for these guys that is only rivaled by the poor fluff fate of the Lamenters chapter. In near every fluff mention of the Elysians get summoned by a Space marine chapter to preform their usual mission of drop in, establish a beach head and withdrawl only to have the marines abandon the Elysians to a horrific massacre, seriosly it gets old like re reading WWII operation Market Garden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden) over and over!

Spoiler: Special Rules & Equipment

Show

Combat drop: OK so your whole army can potentionally start in reserve on flyers which usually means auto loose, think of this as the Elysian version of drop pod assault. Controlling players first turn can select up to half of the Sentry gun batteries, drop sentinel squadrons and Valkyries and Valykrie sky talons (NOT Vendetta's) arrive via deep strike. Yes Elysian flyers can still arrive via deep strike (and I have no clue how that effects their movement first turn?)

Iron Discipline: (company/platoon comand) if within 6 of a model with rule can regroup on unmodified leadership even if <25%.

Equipment:
Tracking Beacon: "Friendly units" (no apparent restriction..) do not scatter via deep striking within 6 of the beacon

Auxillary Grenade launchers: shoot frag or krak grenages 12 inches

Long range ground scanner: set the mode "before the game begins". can not be changed mid game.
Long range sweep: Denies each infiltrating unit on 4+, and -1 to opponents reserves as long as the model with scanner is not falling back.
Short Range lock: a friendly Elysian unit within 12 (unlimited if recieving unit has a vox) on a 4+ gets twin linked this turn. Can not effect barrage and ordanance.

Imperial Navy Upgrades:
Flare/Chaff launchers: 4++ invul vs missles on the turn it is used
Armoured cockpit: ingore shaken/stunned on 4+
Infra-red: night vision
Illum Flares: drops like bombs cancels night conditions within 12 of final placement
Distinctive Paint scheme: one use, while on the board, a unit that can draw line of sight to the flyer can re-roll a single Morale Check

Elysians can Allie as per Imperial Guard, so all shenanigans are legal.
*can take a Valkyrie as a dedicated transport

Spoiler: HQ

Show

Elysian Company Command Squad*; apparently Elysians forgot how to give or recieve any orders, so nothing to forget. This is a Basic Company Comand squad that can only add a Officer of the Fleet and bodyguards. The Comander can have a tracking beacon. This is your only source of the Long Range ground scanner, but each veteran can have one!

Lord Commissar who can also take melta bombs and a tracking beacon.

HQ:

Spoiler: Elites

Show

Storm Trooper Squad*; two special weapons per squad, 5 man base. As this referes to the 5th edition IG book they still use the Special Operations from it, including "Hot Drop": On any turn after teh first in which a Storm trooper Squad arrives using deep strike while in a Valkyrie they can declare a charge as long as they do not run or shooti n the same turn, in addition the Valkyrie gains the Assault Vehicle special rule that turn...Yes assaulting from reserves exists still!

Drop Sentinel Squadron: can still take multi Meltas, can deep strike, combat drop, or take a Sky Talon (a complicated Valkyrie that can carry vehicles with an expensive kit, that really is not worth it)

You can safetly skip the entire Elite section, points are better spent else where. Altough the drop sentinels models are great

Spoiler: Troops

Show

Elysian Drop Infantry Platoon consists of 1 Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-4 Heavy weapons squads, 0-3 Special Weapons squads, 0-1 Drop Sentinel Squads

Elysian Platoon Command Squad*, a platoon command squad, no heavy weapons options, 4 specials, tracking beacon.

Elysian Infantry Squad*, a guard squad that can include a commisar, no heavy weapons.
Elysian Heavy Weapon*, H.bolter or Missle Launchers only.
Elysian Special Weapons*, 3 special weapons.

Elysian Drop Sentinel (see elites)

Elysian Veteran Squads* A vet squad 3 special weapons with a H.flamer option. May choose Carapace armour, or inflitrate (sergeant has a tracking beacon), or Demolitions so melta bombs for all!)

Troops: honestly both tactically and financially Veteran Squads, just take Veteran squads! Take them in Valkyries and forward Observers. These are your troop options!

Spoiler: Dedicated Transport

Show

Valkyrie it is your 5th edition Valkyrie for the price of one Thunder Fire Cannon, you will be building lots of these!

Valkyrie Skytalon, a (0.7 TFC) Valkyrie that has vector Dancer, deep strike and can carry two Sentinals or a Tauros. It's cool, it's fluffy, it's very skippable

Spoiler: Fast Attack

Show

Tauros Squadron a fast open topped scout all terrain vehicle with search lights and light AV that can be taken by sky talons. And like the Sky Talon, it can be skipped because you are spending your points on...

Imperial Navy Gunship Support Squadron.
1-3 flyers either Vendetta or Vultures (must all be the same)

Vendetta: same as the old 5th edition guard in all its undercosted glory! (1.3TFC) still with the 12 carry capacity!

Vulture: I am very biased I love the Vulture the ugly future bastard off spring of an attack helicopter/ A10 Warthog. it has Vector Dancer, deep strike and straffing run! It starts at (1.05 TFC) with a heavy bolter, two Hellstrike missles, twin linked multi-laser, and exta armour. Fromt ehre you can equip it for anti air, ground, vehicle, or horde, it has all the options!

Both Flyers have access to the Navy special equipment.

Fast Attack, take Vendettas and Vultures as points and money allows, you can do no wrong, skip the Tauros.

Spoiler: Heavy Support

Show

Elysian Sentry Guns, deep striking automated twin linked heavy bolters or lascannons that can have camo netting, with a game set firing protocal. Nice but not necessary.

Elysian Cyclops Demolition Squad* A Valkyrie carrying a cyclops demolition vehicle. This is pure pure Forge world. Cool, stupidly over complicated method of deliverying a one use str 9 ap 3 large blast ord. It is fluffy, but ultimatly not worth it.

Especially when you can take

Imperial Navy Air support: a Tunderbolt, Lightning or Avenger...go for the Thunderbolt,cool model best weapon options load out.

[Trixie]

There is no "Precision Shots" special rule in the Special Rules section. Even in the character section, it's not laid out as a rule the character has, but as a rule their To Hit rolls of 6 have.

The Sharpshot rule for Telion (and its equivalent for Nightspear) say that all of their shots are Precision Shots.

It makes sense for this to be what "Take Aim" gets as well.

Otherwise, issuing the Take Aim order to a Ratling squad would be completely pointless.

As would the existence of the rule in the Emperor's Benediction weapon description.

Yeah, the above. "Precision Shots" rule doesn't exist, and besides IG have it worded like Telion does, not like every single Codex until now that granted normal infantry targetable shots on 6s. By RAW, every single guardsman is mini vindicare assassin now. That's the problem.

Hey, we might have Greeks here who prefer "Kyklone". Don't make assumptions.

Funny that, here 'Cyclone' is read with hard C, like 'Centurion' so that's two ways to get it wrong

Also, you're doing Precision Shots wrong. You can make Look Out, Sir! rolls against Precision Shots (which is why Precision Shots are totally not what they say they are, Barrage is more accurate), you're better off focusing all of the flashlights against the guy with the Missile Launcher who has to take it.

Yeah, except not only LOS rolls are just that, rolls (thus not entirely reliable, even with ICs), but with IG volume of fire some of these will get through. And that even if your enemy didn't used anything denying LOS tactics to limit your options.

[bluntpencil]

No, but there are correct and incorrect ways to pronounce things, even made up names. Basically, GW uses Tolkien for a lot of things, Eldar words, Necron, blah, Tolkien used hard c's in elvish, GW does the same with their made up words.

My point was that saying 'as it is spelled' isn't how the English language works. It's an utterly pointless statement, as most letters have multiple sounds associated with them. I could quite easily say that 'cyk' is spelling 'sick' as it sounds, even though the existing spelling is also, apparently, spelled as it sounds.

Elaboration on the complexities:

Do the first instances in the letter 'i' in both 'Sicarius' and 'Tigurius' sound the same to you? Personally, I, for aesthetic purposes, would pronounce the first 'i' in 'Sicarius' like one would the 'i' in 'it'. I would pronounce the 'i' in 'Tigurius' like one would pronounce the 'i' in 'tiger'. I could very well be wrong, but it feels right to me, and these two characters are from the same Chapter.

Furthermore, when pronouncing names of the different cultures in 40K, you would use the culture from which the names originate. German names using German pronunciation, Russian using Russian, Hebrew using Hebrew, Tau using some sort of mangled Far Eastern. Eldar? Necron? Hard to tell.

[Winterwind]

Funny that, here 'Cyclone' is read with hard C, like 'Centurion' so that's two ways to get it wrong

'Centurion' is read with the same 's'-sound as 'cyclone' in English. I couldn't really come up with any English word that illustrates what a 'c' sounds like in Polish, so I went the lazy route and looked it up on Wikipedia, which offers the 'ts'-part of 'pits' as a rough equivalent. Which I guess is kinda sorta right.

EDIT:

Do the first instances in the letter 'i' in both 'Sicarius' and 'Tigurius' sound the same to you? Personally, I, for aesthetic purposes, would pronounce the first 'i' in 'Sicarius' like one would the 'i' in 'it'. I would pronounce the 'i' in 'Tigurius' like one would pronounce the 'i' in 'tiger'. I could very well be wrong, but it feels right to me, and these two characters are from the same Chapter.

Since I figure both are supposed to be pronounced the way they would be in Latin, I would pronounce it with an 'i' like the one in 'it' for both of them.

[Rakaydos]

Yeah, the above. "Precision Shots" rule doesn't exist, and besides IG have it worded like Telion does, not like every single Codex until now that granted normal infantry targetable shots on 6s. By RAW, every single guardsman is mini vindicare assassin now. That's the problem.

Is it a problem? at the end of the day, lasguns are still lasguns, flak vests are still bolter fodder, and on average even a platoon of 50 guardsman needs luck to pick off even a sigle would from an IC.

[bluntpencil]

Also, regarding the Kor'Sarro Khan pronunciation...

It's a difficult one, since how do we pronounce 'Jaghatai'? The 'gh', I would put approximate a semivowel or glide, as seen with the Turkish letter 'ğ', as this language, which I'm somewhat familiar with, has very similar proper names.

[ZeltArruin]

In Japanese C'tan is spelled/pronounced Ka-ta-n, problem solved?

[Artanis]

My point was that saying 'as it is spelled' isn't how the English language works. It's an utterly pointless statement, as most letters have multiple sounds associated with them. I could quite easily say that 'cyk' is spelling 'sick' as it sounds, even though the existing spelling is also, apparently, spelled as it sounds.

Fun example: how do you pronounce G-H-O-T-I?

Spoiler

Show

It's pronounced "fish"
Tough
Women
-tion words

[bluntpencil]

Fun example: how do you pronounce G-H-O-T-I?

Spoiler

Show

It's pronounced "fish"
Tough
Women
-tion words

I was going to use that example myself! We use this as an example for our students here.

[bluntpencil]

In Japanese C'tan is spelled/pronounced Ka-ta-n, problem solved?

Where are you getting that first 'a' sound from!? The lack of a vowel between 'C'' and 't' would imply a sound similar to the 'ct' in 'strict', or perhaps an unstressed schwa sound!

[ZeltArruin]

Where are you getting that first 'a' sound from!? The lack of a vowel between 'C'' and 't' would imply a sound similar to the 'ct' in 'strict', or perhaps an unstressed schwa sound!

Well, Japanese doesn't have consonants not followed by a vowel, so that's how they have to spell it. I don't add any vowel sounds, just the hard 'k' noise. My point was they were using katakana, the alphabet for foreign words, where they attempt to recreate them with their sounds. If C'tan had a soft 'c', they would have copied it as such rather than using their 'k' sound.

[bluntpencil]

Well, Japanese doesn't have consonants not followed by a vowel, so that's how they have to spell it. I don't add any vowel sounds, just the hard 'k' noise. My point was they were using katakana, the alphabet for foreign words, where they attempt to recreate them with their sounds. If C'tan had a soft 'c', they would have copied it as such rather than using their 'k' sound.

If we were doing that exclusively, we'd spell 'C'tan' with a 'k', as it's far less ambiguous. Unless followed by an 'n'.

[Trixie]

'Centurion' is read with the same 's'-sound as 'cyclone' in English. I couldn't really come up with any English word that illustrates what a 'c' sounds like in Polish, so I went the lazy route and looked it up on Wikipedia, which offers the 'ts'-part of 'pits' as a rough equivalent. Which I guess is kinda sorta right.

So, 'senturion'??

I'd say this surprises me, but after 'Jesus' nothing quite brings the same impact

Anyway, it's not 100% (though close) 'ts', example included here.

Is it a problem? at the end of the day, lasguns are still lasguns, flak vests are still bolter fodder, and on average even a platoon of 50 guardsman needs luck to pick off even a sigle would from an IC.

When order-able units can pack multiple heavy or special guns, it can quite sadly become a problem, yes.

[Winterwind]

So, 'senturion'??

Well, and the 't' is actually more of a 'ch'-sound, as in 'chess' (no, wiesz, nasze 'cz' ).

[ZeltArruin]

If we were doing that exclusively, we'd spell 'C'tan' with a 'k', as it's far less ambiguous. Unless followed by an 'n'.

Uh, okay. At least you don't pronounce it 'Sea-Tan'.

[Eldan]

Yeah. So, "phonetically", "Sendshurien".

Terrible, really.I prefer the Latin.

[bluntpencil]

Uh, okay. At least you don't pronounce it 'Sea-Tan'.

I always assumed that the naming was to draw parallels to 'Satan'. Or, you know, 'Settlers of Catan'.