3.5 whirlwind attack

[gallagher]

i was wondering, are there any builds where whirlwind attack is considered not necessarily a must-have, but possibly a good consideration?

i realize that most would say just play a wizard, as there is probably a spell to emulate every melee thing one could possibly do, but i had an idea for the build anyway, and wished to share...

assuming a 32 point buy, one could max out strength, get teh 13 int and 13 dex needed, and put the rest that you have into con (because its a fighting build)

Human barbarian 1: Human feat: combat expertise, first level player feat get dodge

second level, take fighter through level 7, and get mobility.
3rd level, second level for fighter, take spring attack and with the 3rd level feat take knockback. this is crucial to the success of this build

continue on with taking fighter levels, at 5th take power attack, and at sixth level take whirlwind attack. 7th level take monkey grip because i think i like the fun of it, and because whirlwind attack allows you to make the attack at your full bonus.

without buying any magical boosting enhancement to strength, that is a 19 strength, for 4 damage, and with a greatsword one can rationally get the 10 points of damage needed for the free trip attempt, which is easier when raging. power attacking will increase the damage obviously, and with monkey grip one increases the amount of damage that this will do.

this build is good to help out as a fighter while magic users are not yet broken like a cheap vase in an earthquake. by knocking down all the swarming guys around you (because my DM is sadistic, and we tend to face crowds, especially in small areas) it will give your party rogue all the attacks of opportunity that one could ever want. if you take combat reflexes later, say at level 9, then you will benefit as well.

thoughts?

[gallagher]

and i forget if the feat is called knockback or knockdown, but its the one where you get a free trip attempt if you do 10 damage in one hit on any character

[AslanCross]

The biggest problem with it is that it takes a huge feat investment, and the feats it requires don't even synergize with it. There's a weapon enhancement that lets you practically do the same thing, though I forget what it is at the moment.

Whirlwind Attack (and a lot of other full attack martial maneuvers) use your "Full Base Attack Bonus," not your "Full Attack Bonus." This means that if you have iterative attacks, you make all of your attacks using the highest BAB, then add all the appropriate modifiers. It does not negate any penalties you might have.

I don't think it's a good idea no matter what.

[gallagher]

The biggest problem with it is that it takes a huge feat investment, and the feats it requires don't even synergize with it. There's a weapon enhancement that lets you practically do the same thing, though I forget what it is at the moment.

Whirlwind Attack (and a lot of other full attack martial maneuvers) use your "Full Base Attack Bonus," not your "Full Attack Bonus." This means that if you have iterative attacks, you make all of your attacks using the highest BAB, then add all the appropriate modifiers. It does not negate any penalties you might have.

I don't think it's a good idea no matter what.

if anyone can think up this weapon enhancement, that would be a godsend. i am planning on being in a level 8 party and the only BSF, and so i was thinking of taking the half-minotaur template or whatever it is for the +1 LA but increase the strength and kind of going down this path.

with a weapon enhancement, i would easily be able to invest teh feats elsewhere, and then only have to do like 2 levels of fighter for feats, 1 barb for raging, and the rest be a warblade or crusader or something

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Generally the best way that I know of to use whirlwind attack is not via the feat chain. Admittedly, they are 3/4 BAB, but Binders can easily grab it with Paimon, who is a pretty good vestige for mobile fighting as well. There may or may not also be an item of some sorts that can give it to you. Or Heroics, because everything's better with Heroics!

Just my two cents.

[Ernir]

and i forget if the feat is called knockback or knockdown, but its the one where you get a free trip attempt if you do 10 damage in one hit on any character

Knock-Down, the feat is called.

The weapon enhancement is Whirling, MIC 43. +1 enhancement, only works on slashing weapons. Effectively gives Whirlwind Attack 3/day. 'Tis not bad to have, if you are built to take advantage of it.

i realize that most would say just play a wizard

Ironically enough... of the two times I've seriously considered grabbing Whirlwind Attack, one of them was a Wizard build.
Specifically, on a Swiftblade. It needs Dodge and Mobility anyway.

The other time was on a Duskblade, combined with massive reach, the full attack Arcane Channeling ability, and some gestalting. Because channeling a Slay Living or what-have you onto everything within 50+ feet is kinda cool.

In both cases, though... I decided it was too feat-intensive. It's not that the ability to do a whirling attack sucks, it's that it takes 5 friggin' feats to get via the feat chain.

[Flickerdart]

Why a Greatsword? Get a Reach weapon, and you'll be sitting pretty. A Glaive or Spiked Chain with a Half-Minotaur that has Stand Still, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip means that nobody can reach you, and during your turn you fill them full of holes. Your build, on the other hand, needs a lot more feats, has less reach and can't do anything to stop its face getting caved in when it's not its turn - it only works if there are a bunch of people within reach when it's your go, and you can't even close in.

Do note that Half-Minotaur is an incredibly unbalanced template. I would advise something like Water Orc instead for a decrease in cheese.

If you don't want to take advantage of AoOs, I suggest you dip Pyrokineticist 1 for a 15ft reach weapon that you can manifest whenever. It's only 1d8 fire damage, but you can PA with it, and it's a touch attach to hit.

[faceroll]

I would drop the monkey grip in favor of EWP: spiked chain. I think it's a solid build if your DM likes to throw a lot of monsters at you. Typically, you'll see the recommendation to play a charger, but they do a lot of damage to one target, and if they can't charge, they are rather underwhelming. They also lose their AC like mad. Having a negative AC vs a dozen mooks is going to hurt. One thing I've noticed about CharOp is that they like to look through the SRD monsters and judge their builds based on the CRs there. This can be misleading. CR shouldn't be treated as gospel. Instead of facing one fire giant with a party of four, I typically find DMs will have two fire giants and a bunch of minions of various levels, including casters, in an area that isn't exactly advantageous to charging characters. Charging in and killing one fire giant is cool, but then you've got no AC and are dropped into the negatives by a swarm of low level guys.

If you are facing more than 3 enemies at a time, whirlwind can be quite useful. Let the wizard/ranged attackers worry about the back ranks, you chug your potion of enlarge person and wade in there. Being able to put everyone on the floor while dealing damage is awesome.

[gallagher]

what exactly does half minotaur entail? and could i combine that with water orc and make it extra cheezy? my DM says that we need to be able to stand strong, because we are heroes gosh-darn-it. he wants us to be the big scary guys.

my character concept is charge in and kill many guys. with the whirling enhancement, i could then invest the feats into other necessaries.

also, how would i be able to gain the ability to use a huge greatsword (for example) without time for buffs? is there a minimum strength requirement, because IIRC a huge greatsword does 6d6 (though i may be wrong, i am AFB).

[faceroll]

what exactly does half minotaur entail? and could i combine that with water orc and make it extra cheezy? my DM says that we need to be able to stand strong, because we are heroes gosh-darn-it. he wants us to be the big scary guys.

my character concept is charge in and kill many guys. with the whirling enhancement, i could then invest the feats into other necessaries.

also, how would i be able to gain the ability to use a huge greatsword (for example) without time for buffs? is there a minimum strength requirement, because IIRC a huge greatsword does 6d6 (though i may be wrong, i am AFB).

Half minotaur gives you +4 str, +2 con, -2 int +2 wisdom, +10' move, +2 search, spot, listen, track, +2 natural armor, a gore attack, scent, and, most importantly, if you are of medium or smaller size, it increases your size category [i]with all the bonuses and penalties of a size increase). So you become large sized and gain an additional +8 str and +4 con, as well as +2 natural armor, -2 dex, and -1 size penalty to ac/attack. All for one LA. And you could most definitely give it to a water orc (+4 str, +2 con, -2 all mental stats iirc), for a total of +16 str and +8 con all for 1 LA. Very, very worth it.

It's brutal, and for a tripper, you will clean house.

[Flickerdart]

Ahaha, a Half-Minotaur Water Orc would straight up murder everything in its path. I think that works out to +16 STR, total. Strongarm Bracers would let you use a bigger weapon without penalty, as would Powerful Build (on creatures like Goliath and Half-Giant). Monkey Grip is a waste of a feat. The weapon damage dice doesn't really matter, though, as a Huge Greatsword is only 1d6 more than the 3d6 Large Greatsword. A Large Spiked Chain is only 2d6, but for losing that 3.5 damage compared to the Greatsword, you get reach, which is worth it.

So, you'd be getting (+4 STR mod +4 from Improved trip, +8 from racial STR, +4 size) +20 to trip people, and an extra attack when they fall down.

[gallagher]

Ahaha, a Half-Minotaur Water Orc would straight up murder everything in its path. I think that works out to +16 STR, total. Strongarm Bracers would let you use a bigger weapon without penalty, as would Powerful Build (on creatures like Goliath and Half-Giant). Monkey Grip is a waste of a feat. The weapon damage dice doesn't really matter, though, as a Huge Greatsword is only 1d6 more than the 3d6 Large Greatsword. A Large Spiked Chain is only 2d6, but for losing that 3.5 damage compared to the Greatsword, you get reach, which is worth it.

So, you'd be getting (+4 STR mod +4 from Improved trip, +8 from racial STR, +4 size) +20 to trip people, and an extra attack when they fall down.

so i will need combat expertise, combat reflexes, improved trip.

but with the spiked chain, i cannot use whirling, as it needs to be slashing.

as i see it, with a huge weapon (which with the strongarm bracers would just KILL KILL KILL) it would be a big difference to attack everything around me. its like i had a fireball centered on me, and i had evasion, and the duck and cover tactic worked.

if you have an idea or option that would give me a good reach weapon that is slashing, outside of the Many Weapons Duct Taped Together idea, i am all ears.

now all i need to do is make it look like i am on fire for scare tactics.

what do you think the circumstance bonus to intimidate is for this?

[Flickerdart]

Weapon sizes don't give you reach. A Huge greatsword has the same reach as a Tiny one. The Chain, however, gets the reach and can still attack targets adjacent to you. If you need slashing, use a Guisarme and get armour spikes to cover adjacent enemies.

You'd need:
Stand Still (optional but nice to have)
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Power Attack (you have the STR to spare some BAB, but again optional)
Knock-down

[Kelb_Panthera]

now all i need to do is make it look like i am on fire for scare tactics.

NPC castings of continual flame are stupid cheap. Something like 110gp per casting. So you get 1 for the weapon and 1 for the armor. Bam, always on fire for 220gp. You'll of course want something to cover this effect up, but I imagine a long, enveloping cloak would do the trick. Just sheath the sword.

[gallagher]

NPC castings of continual flame are stupid cheap. Something like 110gp per casting. So you get 1 for the weapon and 1 for the armor. Bam, always on fire for 220gp. You'll of course want something to cover this effect up, but I imagine a long, enveloping cloak would do the trick. Just sheath the sword.

EFF COVERING IT UP!
i am the scariest mother effer out there. i want to walk into a crowded street and watch people scatter like cockroaches.
i am considering filing my teeth and eating those whom i kill. raw. i will have the fort save for it

[gallagher]

Weapon sizes don't give you reach. A Huge greatsword has the same reach as a Tiny one. The Chain, however, gets the reach and can still attack targets adjacent to you. If you need slashing, use a Guisarme and get armour spikes to cover adjacent enemies.

You'd need:
Stand Still (optional but nice to have)
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Power Attack (you have the STR to spare some BAB, but again optional)
Knock-down

i just had a nerdgasm thinking of this idea. flails deal bludgeoning and piercing damage, right? is there a way to possibly turn that into blundgeoning and slashing by making it blades on the side instead of spikes?

and now for an evilgasm... make it a 10foot reach weapon? that way i would probably give nightmares to entire troops of mooks.....

omg if there is something like that out there... i think it should be illegal for me to use it

[ericgrau]

Unlike a regular full attack, all of your attacks are at full attack bonus. That's usually better than a full attack if hitting 4-5 or more targets. So get a reach weapon. And the attacks don't necessarily need to be normal damage. You could trip. As for when to use the 4 feats it requires, that'd be when there aren't 4-5 enemies around.

It might be hard to pull off effectively but I could see a niche for it.

[Flickerdart]

What's wrong with the Guisarme? Flails are one-handed non-reach weapons that deal bludgeoning damage, you won't find them much use. Halberds and scythes deal piercing or slashing, but neither has reach.

[gallagher]

What's wrong with the Guisarme? Flails are one-handed non-reach weapons that deal bludgeoning damage, you won't find them much use. Halberds and scythes deal piercing or slashing, but neither has reach.

my original thought was that it is more of the possibility that my DM would find a reason to say that i cant do the attack against people 10 feet away because the guy who is 5 feet next to me will get in the way of the attack. i know it is kinda a stretch, but this idea is not without its logic. even with armor spikes it may be ruled that the momentum of the guisarme was stopped from the guy 5 feet away.

upon further thought, i can just start the attack at one side of the 5 foot guy if there is only one. any idea how i would be able to do this with more that one guy so close, just in case? i like the guisarme idea, its not bad. i was more going off of a picture in my head.i think he will haunt my nightmares for a few weeks still.

what is the damage i can look at if i use the guisarme, and power attack for full? with the whirling ability added to the weapon? i think that this character now belongs to more people than just me with all the help i feel like the smiley in this post deserves to be thog.

and can anyone imagine the scariness of this guy with some kind of way to whirling dervish with this?

[lsfreak]

my original thought was that it is more of the possibility that my DM would find a reason to say that i cant do the attack against people 10 feet away because the guy who is 5 feet next to me will get in the way of the attack.

You trip the guy next to you, get a free hit on him thanks to Improved Trip, and now he's no longer in the way for you to hit anyone else That's assuming he can even GET 5 feet from you, since he'll likely have to avoid at least one trip attempt just to get to you.

[Flickerdart]

You'd be looking at 2d6+18 just from a Large Guisarme and your strength. Dropping full BAB into it at 7th level, say, means that you hit for 2d6+32, 39 on average. And then get a free trip attempt, and if it succeeds, hit them again. It also means that your Stand Still save is impossible to make, so if you don't want people to get near you, they won't, not alive anyway.

Edit: your Guisarme would have to be at least +1 before you can make it Whirling, so that's 40 damage.

[HunterOfJello]

I'd recommend taking 1 level of Warblade to get Steel Wind, Punishing Stance and 1 level of Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy alternative class feature from Unearthed Arcana. Then spend 1 feat to grab Extra Rage.


That gives you 3 Whirling Frenzy Rages a day that allow you to attack 3 enemies every other turn with an extra 1d6+2 damage. (The other turn being where you recover the maneuver.)



Might help if I describe each thing specifically.

1 level of Warblade gets:

Steel Wind - (Strike - Standard Action) Attack 2 opponents at full attack
Punishing Stance - (Stance) +1d6 damage, -2 AC


1 level of Barbarian Whirling Frenzy Alternative:

+4 Strength (so +2 Attack, +2 Damage if you're using Strength for attacking)
+2 AC
+2 Reflex

Can make an extra attack each round if he takes -2 to Attack.


*edit*


This suggestion is far easier to accomplish than wasting tons of feats to get Whirlwind Attack and limits the number of attacks to 3.

However, I bet it's rare that you'll find yourself in a position where you have to fight more than 3 strong enemies at once.

[PhoenixRivers]

You can make Whirlwind synergize with its feats, if you look. There's a PrC that lets you whirlwind attack as a standard action.

[Runestar]

You can make Whirlwind synergize with its feats, if you look. There's a PrC that lets you whirlwind attack as a standard action.

Warblades can do it with a maneuver at 7th lv, and it even adds +2 to all his attacks (though you are unable to benefit from reach), though you can use it only once every 2 rounds at best.

At 15th lv, they can now as a standard action, make 2 attacks at +4 to-hit against each foe adjacent to them.

[PhoenixRivers]

Warblades can do it with a maneuver at 7th lv, and it even adds +2 to all his attacks (though you are unable to benefit from reach), though you can use it only once every 2 rounds at best.

At 15th lv, they can now as a standard action, make 2 attacks at +4 to-hit against each foe adjacent to them.

And bloodstorm blades can do it with a full round action to everything within 5 range increments of them.

The OP was interested in making Whirlwind good. Suggesting he replace it with maneuvers is counterproductive to that. I'm as much for ToB as the next guy... But give the people what they want, and all.

[Runestar]

I believe there is actually a capstone feat to the whirlwind feat chain called improved whirlwind attack or something. You get to make a full attack against 1 foe, plus 1 attack against everyone else within reach.

I suppose one way would be to take this feat chain, as well as focus on increasing your reach so you threaten as many foes on the battlefield as possible. If you have some sort of ability which triggers on hitting, even better, even if the DC is crap.

[AslanCross]

Since you're ok with warblade, just go iron heart and take mithral tornado. Steel wind at level 1 will let you handle massed threats pretty early.

[HunterOfJello]

And bloodstorm blades can do it with a full round action to everything within 5 range increments of them.

The OP was interested in making Whirlwind good. Suggesting he replace it with maneuvers is counterproductive to that. I'm as much for ToB as the next guy... But give the people what they want, and all.

Suggesting alternatives that accomplish the same game mechanic is never counterproductive.


Example A:

And bloodstorm blades can do it with a full round action to everything within 5 range increments of them.

Also, the Throw Anything feat that the Bloodstorm Blade uses has a 10 foot range increment, but you can always throw further than that with a decrease to your attack as mentioned in the PHB (i think).

[PhoenixRivers]

Suggesting alternatives that accomplish the same game mechanic is never counterproductive.

Unless, of course, they don't want the alternative.

Also: the "adjacent" thing is really crippling. Part of the appeal of Whirlwind Attack feat is that the only limit is your reach. When it's easily possible to get reach of 10, 20, even 50 and 60 feet (especially with psionics, such as from my earlier suggestion) and more, that's a very large difference from being restricted to attacking adjacent opponents.

In this instance, the maneuver is far more limiting, meaning it doesn't accomplish the same game mechanic, by a rather wide margin.

Even with the BSB example, it's not a standard action to activate. The action economy provided by Psychic Weapon Master is large, and it uses the original mechanic, while providing a greater attack ability.

In other words, it's superior in every measurable way, in terms of effectiveness.

Also, the Throw Anything feat that the Bloodstorm Blade uses has a 10 foot range increment, but you can always throw further than that with a decrease to your attack as mentioned in the PHB (i think).

Who said you have to throw a melee weapon? Javelin of Distance, with the Far Shot Feat, and the MIC gloves that double range increment can give Javelins a 150-200 foot reach.

[Sinfire Titan]

be a warblade

There's your answer right there. Warblades get Iron Heart, and two of the maneuvers in that style replicate Whirlwind Attack without worthless feat requirements. Adamantine Hurricane (8th level Strike), and Mithral Tornado (6th level Strike). You can get the latter around 11th, earlier if Bloodlines are abused.