OOTS #1204 - The Discussion Thread

[Emanick]

If worst comes to worst Redcloak just has to call in Xykon. Full power Durkon + Minrah is still less than a depowered Redcloak, Xykon, Oona, and the mysterious shaman(?). Plus a whole village of bugbears.

That's probably true, but it's possible that Xykon is out of earshot. Even if he isn't, it might take him a couple of rounds to arrive - hypothetically, long enough for Durkon (and Minrah?) to defeat Redcloak and skedaddle.

Of course, like you and (it appears) everyone else, I don't see it going down that way.

[Thorgon]

So im note sure if its been mentioned but in the exposition part where the OOTS learns of the gates and the snarl the statue of the dwarf fighter Kragor? is placed where they were fighting the snarl
so im wondering if all the doors on the cliff face are actually a bluff and the statue that xycon has desecrated with grafitti is the gate

[dancrilis]

so im wondering if all the doors on the cliff face are actually a bluff and the statue that xycon has desecrated with grafitti is the gate

This has been a theory since the statue/dungeons were introduced.

Marks in favour: It seems like a clever idea.
Marks against: It is not a clever idea.

Haley explains why it is not a sound plan here, panels 5 and 6 in particularly, effectively it would be so easy for Redcloak to have went 'hey maybe it is in the statue, lets check that before wasting months searching' or go 'lets destroy that statue of the goblin murdering dwarf' that using the statue to hide the gate would likely be a terrible idea.

That is not to say it isn't - just that if it is Redcloak should give himself a kick.

[Thorgon]

alright so not that statue but another statue my point is that the wall of dungeons serves best as a red herring

the gate could be buried a few dozen meters under plain nondescript snow and no divination epic level or not would tell you where to dig while this massive wall of dungeons purported to be the gates defenses tire you out distract you and slow you down

[Peelee]

alright so not that statue but another statue my point is that the wall of dungeons serves best as a red herring

the gate could be buried a few dozen meters under plain nondescript snow and no divination epic level or not would tell you where to dig while this massive wall of dungeons purported to be the gates defenses tire you out distract you and slow you down

That doesn't address the "but why leave it functionally unguarded like that" part. Maybe an unseasonably warm summer would melt away the snow, showing off the Gate. Maybe two fire mages searching for it would find it while goofing off with their blastey spells. Maybe a pet bulette would run into it. There are uncountable ways for someone to randomly stumble onto the Gate if it is functionally unguarded like that, and "capable of randomly stumbling upon it" is not a desirable trait when trying to protect one of the stitches holding all of creation together.

[Fyraltari]

So im note sure if its been mentioned but in the exposition part where the OOTS learns of the gates and the snarl the statue of the dwarf fighter Kragor? is placed where they were fighting the snarl

Not it isn't. These two panels have a similar composition so it looks like it's the same qpot but look at the background: one has a tree then two rocks the other has no tree and three rocks. General sale area, not same place.

[Thorgon]

That doesn't address the "but why leave it functionally unguarded like that" part. Maybe an unseasonably warm summer would melt away the snow, showing off the Gate. Maybe two fire mages searching for it would find it while goofing off with their blastey spells. Maybe a pet bulette would run into it. There are uncountable ways for someone to randomly stumble onto the Gate if it is functionally unguarded like that, and "capable of randomly stumbling upon it" is not a desirable trait when trying to protect one of the stitches holding all of creation together.

an unreasonably warm summer in what amounts to the north or south pole? they dont have nearly enough industry for that and their world will never have enough industry for that because of the snarl
as for the 2 fire mages true but setting up some misdirection spells or even using space warping magic to make the area that contains the gate about the size of an atom to the rest of the world would solve that problem and for some reason i doubt any animal pet or not will be interested in a piece of rock

[Peelee]

an unreasonably warm summer in what amounts to the north or south pole? they dont have nearly enough industry for that and their world will never have enough industry for that because of the snarl
as for the 2 fire mages true but setting up some misdirection spells or even using space warping magic to make the area that contains the gate about the size of an atom to the rest of the world would solve that problem and for some reason i doubt any animal pet or not will be interested in a piece of rock

Those were all off-the-cuff examples. The point remains that making it functionally undefended is not a good idea.

Also, "unseasonably" warm, not "unreasonably".

[B. Dandelion]

We only saw V tell Roy, but I don’t know if that’s a matter of “told the rest of the party offscreen” or “the other characters still don’t know”.

I think there’s at least one point in Book 6 where V referred to it obliquely in the hearing of the party, and no one said “V, what are you talking about?”. But I can’t seem to find it. I’ve been operating on the assumption that the other party members know.

That sounds like 1098 when Vaarsuvius says that Durkon was kind to them after their "ill-advised bargain". Nobody blinks or asks what that was, specifically.

[understatement]

That sounds like 1098 when Vaarsuvius says that Durkon was kind to them after their "ill-advised bargain". Nobody blinks or asks what that was, specifically.

I thought the "..." pause before the ill-advised bargain was hinting that V had swapped out the words at the last moment. It's ambiguous enough that the Order isn't going to question on it too hard.

I guess we'll know if they know the next time the IFCC pull out V. I do think Roy told everyone else about the tactics, but I highly doubt they know the finer details of Familicide.

[Fyraltari]

At the very least, V told Belkar. Sort of.

[dancrilis]

an unreasonably warm summer in what amounts to the north or south pole? they dont have nearly enough industry for that and their world will never have enough industry for that because of the snarl

There is a bugbear village right there - they could dig for any number of reasons (new house, arena, young bugbears like to dig in the snow etc).

space warping magic to make the area that contains the gate about the size of an atom to the rest of the world would solve that problem

If you can effectively delete the rift from reality that would be a good idea - however that seems to not be possible, even Thor's plan is merely to seal them again (but better this time).

It is possible that the Gate is somewhere else - but if it is then it would make sense for it to be nowhere close, Serini encoded her journal with the coordinates of the gates there are good reasons for her to lie about all there coordinates but lying about some (particularly the one she guarded) also makes sense (and just trust her friends to defend theirs).

Although now that I think about it I can't remember how the OOTS found out where Kraagor's gate was.

[Fyraltari]

There is a bugbear village right there - they could dig for any number of reasons (new house, arena, young bugbears like to dig in the snow etc).



If you can effectively delete the rift from reality that would be a good idea - however that seems to not be possible, even Thor's plan is merely to seal them again (but better this time).

It is possible that the Gate is somewhere else - but if it is then it would make sense for it to be nowhere close, Serini encoded her journal with the coordinates of the gates there are good reasons for her to lie about all there coordinates but lying about some (particularly the one she guarded) also makes sense (and just trust her friends to defend theirs).

Although now that I think about it I can't remember how the OOTS found out where Kraagor's gate was.

Shojo told Roy. That's why V, Durkon and Elan couldn't move there without getting Roy back. Shojo knew from his father who knew from Soon who had delegated all mapmaking duties to Girard. The thing about her lying about the coordinates doesn't really makes sense because this book isn't something she wrote after the fact, it's a personal day-to-day diary with little drawing and where she adresses the book itself.

[dancrilis]

Shojo told Roy. That's why V, Durkon and Elan couldn't move there without getting Roy back. Shojo knew from his father who knew from Soon who had delegated all mapmaking duties to Girard. The thing about her lying about the coordinates doesn't really makes sense because this book isn't something she wrote after the fact, it's a personal day-to-day diary with little drawing and where she adresses the book itself.

I don't think the gate will be somewhere else - but if Xykon had to descipher the locations of the gates it means they were encoded including a false location would be easy enough.

Do you have a link for Shojo telling Roy - because he certainly didn't tell him the location of Girard's gate (with any real accuracy).

My assumption now that I think about it (if I am not drawing a blank) is that the Paladin's told them where Xykon was after they located him - and the Order are assuming that he is near the Gate (but I could easily be drawing a blank).

[Fyraltari]

Do you have a link for Shojo telling Roy

Fifth panel.

because he certainly didn't tell him the location of Girard's gate (with any real accuracy).

No, he didn't. He gave him the coordinates his father gave him after receiving them from Soon who shouldn't have releagated the mapmaking duties to Girard.

My assumption now that I think about it (if I am not drawing a blank) is that the Paladin's told them where Xykon was after they located him - and the Order are assuming that he is near the Gate (but I could easilly be drawing a blank).

Xykon arrived at Girard's Gate much later than the Order.

[Jasdoif]

Do you have a link for Shojo telling Roy

Fifth panel.

Also a sixth panel.

[Peelee]

I don't think the gate will be somewhere else - but if Xykon had to descipher the locations of the gates it means they were encoded including a false location would be easy enough.

But why? Why would she encode all the others correctly, and then supply misinformation on hers? We know why Girard did it; he only misinformed Soon, because he distrusted and hated Soon. Serini has no such reason to lie about her, and only her, Gate location. Especially in a personal diary, in which the locations are encoded anyway.

My assumption now that I think about it (if I am not drawing a blank) is that the Paladin's told them where Xykon was after they located him - and the Order are assuming that he is near the Gate (but I could easily be drawing a blank).

Assuming you are talking about Kraagor's Gate, they didn't need to find Xykon; they needed to go to the Gate and just wait for Xykon to show up. The only thing the Paladins needed to tell the Order was "he's here now."

[dancrilis]

Fifth panel.

Also a sixth panel.

Ok ... so we know that the coordinates that Girard gave were not good, my assumption has been that all the coordinates Roy got were equally bad.
But on review Girard did only say he lied about his own gate and Miko was seemingly able to find the area of Dorukan's gate.

Xykon arrived at Girard's Gate much later than the Order.

I was not talking about Girard's Gate.

But why? Why would she encode all the others correctly, and then supply misinformation on hers? We know why Girard did it; he only misinformed Soon, because he distrusted and hated Soon. Serini has no such reason to lie about her, and only her, Gate location. Especially in a personal diary, in which the locations are encoded anyway.

I don't think she did.
But if she was going to bury the gate 5 meters from the dungeon she could have just as easily buried it 500 miles from the dungeon (or more correctly build the dungeon in a different location from the gate)
As for a potential rational - if she trusted her friends to defend their gates against all threats but didn't trust herself to do the same she could tell the truth about their gates and lie about hers - the truths about their gates lead to her lie being more believable.
But again I don't think this will be how it plays out.

Assuming you are talking about Kraagor's Gate, they didn't need to find Xykon; they needed to go to the Gate and just wait for Xykon to show up. The only thing the Paladins needed to tell the Order was "he's here now."

Fair enough.

[mjasghar]

With regards to the statue
I know I asked this before but I can’t remember if it was answered
Why is the statue still standing?
There’s no logical reason for Xykon or RC to protect it and they’re more likely to destroy it for giggles (xykon) or xenophobia (RC)

[Squire Doodad]

With regards to the statue
I know I asked this before but I can’t remember if it was answered
Why is the statue still standing?
There’s no logical reason for Xykon or RC to protect it and they’re more likely to destroy it for giggles (xykon) or xenophobia (RC)

No reason to bother destroying it. The bugbears probably like it just for what it adds to the scenery.
Xykon has yet to destroy it by virtue of not being bored enough to burn a spell slot on it when there's work to be done.

[understatement]

No reason to bother destroying it. The bugbears probably like it just for what it adds to the scenery.
Xykon has yet to destroy it by virtue of not being bored enough to burn a spell slot on it when there's work to be done.

Also, it's fun to draw on.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, it's fun to draw on.

I don't know why, but that made me laugh so hard
Do you mind if I sig that quote of a quote

[understatement]

I don't know why, but that made me laugh so hard
Do you mind if I sig that quote of a quote

Sure! I'm honored.

[Squire Doodad]

Sure! I'm honored.

Into the extended sig it goes!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ok ... so we know that the coordinates that Girard gave were not good, my assumption has been that all the coordinates Roy got were equally bad.
But on review Girard did only say he lied about his own gate and Miko was seemingly able to find the area of Dorukan's gate.

The implication of all of this is that the Order of the Scribble dealt with Girard's Gate before meeting Soon Kim, and the others afterwards.

[Peelee]

The implication of all of this is that the Order of the Scribble dealt with Girard's Gate before meeting Soon Kim, and the others afterwards.

Or that Girard's Gate was in the middle of a desert, and Soon Kim, not being a cartologist, would see coordinates in a desert as probably accurate whether or not they really were.

[Quizatzhaderac]

...To be honest, even *with* Redcloak I think it’s virtually impossible for the Order to defeat Xykon if he has more than ten spell slots over 5th level. He’s just too strong.

That depends on the details of spellsplitter and if the fight starts in an enclosed space.

Based on the dream sequence, Roy might be able to solo Xykon since without use of spells he is much, much weaker.

That said, the dream may have been a rather optimistic. Spellsplitter might only have a chance of interrupting the spell. Maybe stilled spells can't be interrupted.

From the fight with Greg we know spellsplitter isn't perfect (Greg got a Harm off through the spellsplitter). Also, Roy kept doing a thing where he kept knocking Greg far away, which is exactly what you don't want to do as a pure melee fighter.

I choose to believe the Potion Vendor is like early-Blackwing; always there, but nobody acknowledges his existence until just before the final dungeon. It even fits with the Mechane's speed functioning on dramatic rules!

Also the potion vendor's invisibility isn't magic, or even extraordinary. It's just that PCs have a hard time seeing NPCs that are neither threats nor part of the plot.

TBH, I can't see the Order "defeating" the IFCC, considering only two people on the team even know of their existence. They can only hope to delay their plans.

Agreed. They seem like low level divine, or at least epic. Note how they weren't "allowed" to do most things on the material plane, so they could probably trivialize the Order and Xykon by acting in person.

an unreasonably warm summer in what amounts to the north or south pole? they dont have nearly enough industry for that and their world will never have enough industry for that because of the snarl

Judging by the fact that there isn't a mile of ice over the rock we can assume the stickworld north pole is warmer than ours. Oona also mentioned "certain berries" which implies things grow, which implies the temperature goes above melting point sometimes.

Also the fact that bugbears found it and live there suggest it isn't surrounded by completely inhabitable land for thousands of miles like on Earth.

[danielxcutter]

The most likely inspiration - if not outright just another name for - the Spellsplinter Maneuver is either Mage Slayer or Spellcasting Harrier. Both simply prevent the targeted caster from casting defensively, so if you’re able to make a (pretty high) Concentration check it’s just a normal attack. The thing is, undead use their Charisma score instead of Constitution... and even the vampire could make one. Not sure about the DR, though I wouldn’t be surprised if the extra damage from the green fire effectively cancels that particular problem out.

Seriously, there are way too many abilities the Order has that Xykon resists, if not flat out immune to. An epic-level version of Redcloak would honestly be far easier. No DR, sneak attack works, less likely to totally ignore damage from evocations, the Chaos Saber is probably an Anarchic weapon... Yeesh.

[understatement]

The most likely inspiration - if not outright just another name for - the Spellsplinter Maneuver is either Mage Slayer or Spellcasting Harrier. Both simply prevent the targeted caster from casting defensively, so if you’re able to make a (pretty high) Concentration check it’s just a normal attack. The thing is, undead use their Charisma score instead of Constitution... and even the vampire could make one. Not sure about the DR, though I wouldn’t be surprised if the extra damage from the green fire effectively cancels that particular problem out.

Seriously, there are way too many abilities the Order has that Xykon resists, if not flat out immune to. An epic-level version of Redcloak would honestly be far easier. No DR, sneak attack works, less likely to totally ignore damage from evocations, the Chaos Saber is probably an Anarchic weapon... Yeesh.

Assuming Redcloak is at least lvl 18 now, if he casts Blasphemy then Roy, V, Haley, Elan will be hit pretty bad, and Durkon gets paralyzed. Belkar is negligible. All Xykon has to do after is fry them where they stand.

I do believe that V comboed with any other Order member could defeat Redcloak, but I don't think the Order could defeat Xykon even on his own. He's what, CR 23?

[dancrilis]

They seem like low level divine, or at least epic.

I am very dubious about that - so far the only thing they have done is plane shift, and soul shenanigans.
They have claimed that an advanced time stop effect was put in place when the envelope was opened - but a) they could have lied (the dragon did a reasonable bit in such a limited time and it didn't look like it was rushing), b) if there was a time stop effect we don't know if that was from the fiends themselves or merely equipment from the lower downs who they claim to requisition resources from (and yes at least part of that was a lie).
In brief I see no reason to assume they are as powerful as people seem to occassionally think.

With regards to the statue
I know I asked this before but I can’t remember if it was answered
Why is the statue still standing?
There’s no logical reason for Xykon or RC to protect it and they’re more likely to destroy it for giggles (xykon) or xenophobia (RC)

Any number of reasons - one that might not have been considered is that Serini did hide the gate in it because she didn't do the thought process of Haley in relation to what that would mean.
Xykon being dubious about Redcloak is now applying his own epic skill ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft to piece together what his side of the ritual actually does (rather then relying on a minion) and he figured out where the Gate was immediately but wanted to distract Redcloak away from it - so using his ranks in Reverse Psychology he draw attention ot the statue so that Redcloak would ignore it.