OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Point of view. From the information he has it makes perfect sense.

So why use POW when you mean POV?

[Jacky720]

Point of view. From the information he has it makes perfect sense.

Seeing as the Dark One designed the Ritual, I think he would know whether it would allow him to open the same Gate multiple times. Also, you can't open any gate multiple times unless you close it in the meantime, which he can't do. So I don't know what "information he has" that makes that work.

[ebarde]

It's important to note that Durkon is also the only person capable of tipping off Xykon(not that he isn't clearly aware that something is up, but it's arguable as to what extent) about Redcloak's betrayal. Durkon probably won't at least not on purpose, but it's definetly a possibility.

[Samoja1]

I humbly suggest the two of you are missing the author's explicit messaging.

I am not missing it, merely disagreeing with it, to a point. Yes all sentient beings have a right not to be genocided, however, just because someone is oppressed does not in any way mean they are good, or would not do the exact same or worse (well, depending on whether you consider working someone to death as a slave worse then just outright wiping them out) back if given the chance.

We can see in Gobbotopia that goblins are in no way champions of liberty and tolerance, plight of goblin slaves is pretty good preview of what's in store for the rest of good races if goblins take over. The very reason they were contained in the inhospitable parts is that they outbreed any other race even with those restrictions. Right now they are vulnerable, but once their population explodes due to influx of new resources what's to stop them from conquering more and more territory until everyone else is either dead or enslaved? Can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't do it given the chance? Even putting aside their evil alignment every living thing wants to expand, especially humans, in fact i suspect it's only constant threat from evil races that kept Humans, Elves and Dwarves from turning on each other all this time. You may say threat of retaliation would keep them in check but hardly anyone came to help Azure City, even tho it was such an important city and held one of the gates. This leads me to believe good aligned kingdoms are far less united then they may seem, perfect target for goblin expansion, so why would they not? Out of the goodness of their heart?

[Samoja1]

Seeing as the Dark One designed the Ritual, I think he would know whether it would allow him to open the same Gate multiple times. Also, you can't open any gate multiple times unless you close it in the meantime, which he can't do. So I don't know what "information he has" that makes that work.

Not open it, merely move the mouth closer to other pantheons.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The other pantheons are spread out over seventeen Outer Planes, plus possibly the Elemental Planes as well. The Gate-nuke only targets one, leaving everyone else free to destroy TDO. Assuming they don't just destroy the Material Plane immediately, which someone in the know has already stated is their Plan A.

The Dark One has zero plays and one out. And I'm beginning to suspect that this will resolve with Redcloak dead (Xykon, Snarl, Order, whoever), but the god provides the quiddity personally to solve the problem.

[Doug Lampert]

The other pantheons are spread out over seventeen Outer Planes, plus possibly the Elemental Planes as well. The Gate-nuke only targets one, leaving everyone else free to destroy TDO. Assuming they don't just destroy the Material Plane immediately, which someone in the know has already stated is their Plan A.

The Dark One has zero plays and one out. And I'm beginning to suspect that this will resolve with Redcloak dead (Xykon, Snarl, Order, whoever), but the god provides the quiddity personally to solve the problem.

Red Cloak dies, and explains to TDO that the plan is a bust, but that he has leverage if he'll just TALK to the other gods, is a plausible endgame, except that it's still, "and then someone other than the OotS solves the problem". (Unless The OotS somehow causes TDO to agree.)

[Samoja1]

The other pantheons are spread out over seventeen Outer Planes, plus possibly the Elemental Planes as well. The Gate-nuke only targets one, leaving everyone else free to destroy TDO. Assuming they don't just destroy the Material Plane immediately, which someone in the know has already stated is their Plan A.

The Dark One has zero plays and one out. And I'm beginning to suspect that this will resolve with Redcloak dead (Xykon, Snarl, Order, whoever), but the god provides the quiddity personally to solve the problem.

But if that was the case wouldn't TDO's plan be kinda toothless? If gods could just gang up on him after he opens the portal then even if he wins he looses, sure some gods may get caught in the fire but as long as they spread out they have a decent chance to survive. I always thought for the plan to really work TDO would have to retain the ability to shift the Snarl from one p lane to another.

[understatement]

I am not missing it, merely disagreeing with it, to a point. Yes all sentient beings have a right not to be genocided, however, just because someone is opposed does not in any way mean they are good, or would not do the exact same or worse (well, depending on whether you consider working someone to death as a slave worse then just outright wiping them out) back if given the chance.

We can see in Gobbotopia that goblins are in no way champions of liberty and tolerance, plight of goblin slaves is pretty good preview of what's in store for the rest of good races if goblins take over. The very reason they were contained in the inhospitable parts is that they outbreed any other race even with those restrictions. Right now they are vulnerable, but once their population explodes due to influx of new resources what's to stop them from conquering more and more territory until everyone else is either dead or enslaved? Can you give me one good reason why they shouldn't do it given the chance? Even putting aside their evil alignment every living thing wants to expand, especially humans, in fact i suspect it's only constant threat from evil races that kept Humans, Elves and Dwarves from turning on each other all this time. You may say threat of retaliation would keep them in check but hardly anyone came to help Azure City, even tho it was such an important city and held one of the gates. This leads me to believe good aligned kingdoms are far less united then they may seem, perfect target for goblin expansion, so why would they not? Out of the goodness of their heart?

Because they didn't? Because the hobgobliins didn't expand and went to devour opposing nations, and only moved to conquer Azure City when X and RC mobilized them to? Because Jirix explcitly stated they're in peacetime now, and that the Dark One personally relayed to him of the battles of diplomacy? Because Redcloak knows that if they try to expand the other nations will view them as "crusade bait?"

As for slavery...that is a terrible thing, and something Durkon does try to put on the negotiating table (although it wasn't the primary aspect). But this is like saying every single person in the Empire of Blood must be Evil, because of the institution of slavery. And since that's not the case, why shouldn't it be the same for Gobbotopia?

Also, of course, no country has ever been built from slavery but then got rid of it and tried to reform. That'd be crazy.

[ebarde]

I mean, not only some gods will die off but the other ones would probably start arguing about it which would probably result on the creation of another Snarl. The gods seem to operate in a balance system which is extremely fragile and would break into in-fighting if anything were to disrupt that balance, I mean Thor feared that just him confronting the Dark One had a real chance of creating a mini-snarl so the Dark One dropping a nuke on them basically would cause a whole bunch of fallout. Also, I'm not sure there's even a whole lot of evidence to suggest the snarl would even be contained in a plane, and not just chew through it.

[Samoja1]

Because they didn't? Because the hobgobliins didn't expand and went to devour opposing nations, and only moved to conquer Azure City when X and RC mobilized them to? Because Jirix explcitly stated they're in peacetime now, and that the Dark One personally relayed to him of the battles of diplomacy? Because Redcloak knows that if they try to expand the other nations will view them as "crusade bait?"

As for slavery...that is a terrible thing, and something Durkon does try to put on the negotiating table (although it wasn't the primary aspect). But this is like saying every single person in the Empire of Blood must be Evil, because of the institution of slavery. And since that's not the case, why shouldn't it be the same for Gobbotopia?

Also, of course, no country has ever been built from slavery but then got rid of it and tried to reform. That'd be crazy.

Keyword is now. They are already Crusader bait. Right now they have other problems, you need to consolidate your gains, but in a generation or two, well, i can't see any reason why they would not expand, and every reason to expand, so long as they attack more isolated lands chances are other kingdoms will leave them alone, until they have strength to take on the rest, it's Empire building 101, you don't want to face everyone at once, you want to convince everyone apart from your current target they are safe.

Also just because slavery was abolished in our world does not mean that's the rule, it isn't. Several very speciffic nations were the drivers of abolition of slavery, and they had to force many nations to give it up at gunpoint, they were also under the influence of a very speciffic branch of the very speciffic ideology. Abolition of slavery is in no way a forgone conclusion, we had it since the dawn of civilization (or even before) across all cultures everywhere and only abolished it in the last few centuries, and only after a lot of bloodshed. What i am saying is slavery is much more universal concept trough human history then abolition of slavery.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But if that was the case wouldn't TDO's plan be kinda toothless? If gods could just gang up on him after he opens the portal then even if he wins he looses, sure some gods may get caught in the fire but as long as they spread out they have a decent chance to survive. I always thought for the plan to really work TDO would have to retain the ability to shift the Snarl from one p lane to another.

I take it you didn't read the quote from The Giant that Metataschydium provided? Because that's exactly what will happen. TDO tries to use the Gate-nuke, the other gods take him out. He might get a couple, he cannot get them all. And about the only thing the gods agree on is DON'T SCREW AROUND WITH THE SNARL.

[understatement]

Keyword is now. They are already Crusader bait. Right now they have other problems, you need to consolidate your gains, but in a generation or two, well, i can't see any reason why they would not expand, and every reason to expand, so long as they attack more isolated lands chances are other kingdoms will leave them alone, until they have strength to take on the rest, it's Empire building 101, you don't want to face everyone at once, you want to convince everyone apart from your current target they are safe.

Have you read GDGU?

Also, why? Couldn't this be assumed of every single kingdom or city?

I'm not getting it. If a being has free will to choose and rationalize, they can easily be Good, Neutral, or Evil without factoring race in.

Also just because slavery was abolished in our world does not mean that's the rule, it isn't. Several very speciffic nations were the drivers of abolition of slavery, and they had to force many nations to give it up at gunpoint, they were also under the influence of a very speciffic branch of the very speciffic ideology. Abolition of slavery is in no way a forgone conclusion, we had it since the dawn of civilization (or even before) across all cultures everywhere and only abolished it in the last few centuries, and only after a lot of bloodshed. What i am saying is slavery is much more universal concept trough human history then abolition of slavery.

Maybe it's possible the Order could force negotiations for Redcloak to have Gobbotopia free the slaves and get rid of it. In fact, I feel like this was a mentioned possibility in 1208 1209.

[Geech]

Yes they have, despite the fact that such a meeting could be done via, Gate or Plane Shift - or Commune, despite the fact that merely going to the afterlife is no guarantee of meeting a deity, despite the fact that there is no one around would might raise him - and certainly not in short order, despite the fact that it would leave the cloak completely unprotected and so enable it to be stolen or destroyed potentially ruining the overall plan if the Dark One rejected the offer ... they have raised the possibility regardless.

I don't see it myself.

So I've really cooled on the possibility of RC casting Implosion on himself after comparing the art in Minimal Resistance to the art in Compromised. The panel of Durkon reacting looks pretty much identical to the panel of the elf reacting, and this has convinced me that Durkon is the target of the spell. I think killing Durkon again at this point in the story would be a clear mistake, but we'll see what happens.

However, I still wanted to address again all of these supposedly easier methods of communicating with TDO again: they obviously, clearly do not work for Redcloak. In Speaking Terms, RC admits that he has never communicated directly with The Dark One in 35 years of being his high priest, and it's clear from his comments and body language that he's bothered by it. Moreover, in Dead Men Give No Speeches when The Dark One himself wants to communicate with Redcloak, he passes a messages through a hobgoblin being resurrected instead of directly communicating.

I think the very clear implication of all of this is that TDO and RC simply cannot directly communicate. I don't know why this would be the case. Maybe it's due to the nature of The Dark One's power, or the nature of the cloak, or maybe it's a result of something the other Gods have done. Maybe The Dark One forbids the use of certain powers because he fears the other Gods can monitor them. Whatever the cause, it seems to be a clear limitation. At this point I think we can practically regard Speaking Terms as the comic making a point of showing us a loaded gun hanging on the wall. I think Redcloak will never communicate directly with The Dark One until he is dead or successful with The Plan.

[Samoja1]

Have you read GDGU?

Also, why? Couldn't this be assumed of every single kingdom or city?

I'm not getting it. If a being has free will to choose and rationalize, they can easily be Good, Neutral, or Evil without factoring race in.



Maybe it's possible the Order could force negotiations for Redcloak to have Gobbotopia free the slaves and get rid of it. In fact, I feel like this was a mentioned possibility in 1208 1209.

It's not a matter of alignment, it's a matter of evolution. Dwarves, Elves, Humans and Goblins are all competing for the same ecological niche and the gods inadvertently created a species that is much better adapted to utilizing that niche then their chosen species Goblins thrive in environments where other races could never survive, in cases where several different species contend for the same niche rule of thumb is one species dominates and others die out, if that does not happen there has to be ironclad reasons why. Truth is goblins do the exact same thing as other races, only better with less resources, i just can't see this ending well for humans or elves and dwarves.

[understatement]

It's not a matter of alignment, it's a matter of evolution. Dwarves, Elves, Humans and Goblins are all competing for the same ecological niche and the gods inadvertently created a species that is much better adapted to utilizing that niche then their chosen species Goblins thrive in environments where other races could never survive, in cases where several different species contend for the same niche rule of thumb is one species dominates and others die out, if that does not happen there has to be ironclad reasons why. Truth is goblins do the exact same thing as other races, only better with less resources, i just can't see this ending well for humans or elves and dwarves.

Nice, now it's biological explanations for entire sentient races and cultures.

Also, you're gonna need proof for the "goblins thrive in their environment" part, or proof that multiple races can't thrive together, despite the Western Continent existing otherwise.

Also also, species and races have very different meanings, especially in this context.

[ScreamingGod]

It looks like goblins are people, and people are stubborn.

[Dragonus45]

Have you read GDGU?

I have, and it showed everyone involved had their fair of warmongers, and there are literally too many pages to link them all, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html this one immediately came to mind but its far from the only one, of various soldiers from the army that took Gobotopia talking about how happy they were to crush a city beneath their feet and so on. Yes the current supreme leader favored not poking the bear and coexistent army building but leadership changes and the culture overall is highly militaristic and any economy that is going to rely on slave labor on the scale they currently have will be economically encouraged to continue conquest. I hope for a more peaceful solution, but it's going to be pushing uphill for it to happen. Especially when RC decides to go full sunk cost fallacy on the plan and throw away the best offer of diplomatic legitimacy he likely ever will get.

[ebarde]

Goblins don't have the gods on their side, and even if you wanna argue the gods can't just do whatever, they literally control the elements of nature(winds, rain, lightning etc), can guide adventurers into quests, grant them divine powers and boons such as prophecy, at least once have been portrayed as being able to actively do combat in the material realm(Thor got a call from Durkon as he was about to stop Surtur from destroying a village) and made all of reality from the ground up so the world would work on storytelling rules except the goblins don't get to be the protagonists(I guess hero is the better word, cause Redcloak did got to be sorta of the deuteragonist that one time).

[Samoja1]

Nice, now it's biological explanations for entire sentient races and cultures.

Also, you're gonna need proof for the "goblins thrive in their environment" part, or proof that multiple races can't thrive together, despite the Western Continent existing otherwise.

Also also, species and races have very different meanings, especially in this context.

In this context race is pretty much an equivalent of species that is sentient. Multiple races can't thrive together, unless rules od OoTS world are somehow different then rules of our world. It's the nature of the system, all living things are von neuman machines of sort. In a very real sense we have infinite numbers of potential critters in a system that has finite resources. Competition for those resources is so fundamental that it has been hardwired at every level of living creatures today, and while OoTS world did not come into being like our own the basic rule of survival of the fittest still applies, only reason it would not is if external force(like the gods) was investing effort into maintaining status quo.

We can argue morallity, but if you want to argue basic rules of evolution don't apply you will have to provide some evidence of that, cause that's very much extraordinary claim. Those rules are rooted in mathematical models, so if you want to argue they don't apply here you have to prove to me rules of math are different in OoTS world.

[Lethologica]

In this context race is pretty much an equivalent of species that is sentient. Multiple races can't thri e together, unless rules od OoTS world are somehow different then rules of our world.

Are you actually taking the real world as evidence that multiple races can't thrive together? I think this conversation has ended its useful life; whatever follows will be either useless or in flagrant violation of the forum rules, and most likely both.

[Samoja1]

Are you actually taking the real world as evidence that multiple races can't thrive together? I think this conversation has ended its useful life; whatever follows will be either useless or in flagrant violation of the forum rules, and most likely both.

I am using the world race in fantasy context, i made that abundantly clear, don't intentionally misquote me to push a strawman.

[understatement]

I have, and it showed everyone involved had their fair of warmongers, and there are literally too many pages to link them all, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html this one immediately came to mind but its far from the only one, of various soldiers from the army that took Gobotopia talking about how happy they were to crush a city beneath their feet and so on. Yes the current supreme leader favored not poking the bear and coexistent army building but leadership changes and the culture overall is highly militaristic and any economy that is going to rely on slave labor on the scale they currently have will be economically encouraged to continue conquest. I hope for a more peaceful solution, but it's going to be pushing uphill for it to happen. Especially when RC decides to go full sunk cost fallacy on the plan and throw away the best offer of diplomatic legitimacy he likely ever will get.

...yes? Gobbotopia needs a better leader? It doesn't have to resolve in...less than twenty pages into the book, at this moment, at the very table, when the world is at stake.

I'm simply not seeing the merits of Samoja1's points. Why is it not possible that the goblins could release the slaves and start utilizing the fertile land? That might even be a huge driving conflict in a book that's just getting started.

I am using the world race in fantasy context, i made that abundantly clear, don't intentionally misquote me to push a strawman.

You used species and races interchangeably in your post, despite them having very different meanings. The goblinoid cause is an allegory to real life racism.

Goblins are humans with green skin and fangs. Dwarves are humans, but short. Halfings are humans, but shorter and with hairier feet. There is nothing biologically inherent in them that makes them incapable of living together, considering all of them are sentient, free-willed beings.

[Lethologica]

I am using the world race in fantasy context, i made that abundantly clear, don't intentionally misquote me to push a strawman.

Okay. Getting back to fantasy, then, we have a wide variety of fantasy races coexisting on Stickworld, many of which you would probably consider to be better or worse suited to the supposedly singular ecological niche. Why are goblins fundamentally different? Their short lifespans? The fact that they have had precisely one (1) major city in their entire history?

[Samoja1]

...yes? Gobbotopia needs a better leader? It doesn't have to resolve in...less than twenty pages into the book, at this moment, at the very table, when the world is at stake.

I'm simply not seeing the merits of Samoja1's points. Why is it not possible that the goblins could release the slaves and start utilizing the fertile land? That might even be a huge driving conflict in a book that's just getting started.

1 why would they release the slaves? And 2, sooner or later they will run out of fertile land. That does not even take into account pure greed, which very much played a role in our own history. You are literally arguing that goblins would have better moral character then any real civilization in our own history.

[Lethologica]

1 why would they release the slaves? And 2, sooner or later they will run out of fertile land. That does not even take into account pure greed, which very much played a role in our own history. You are literally arguing that goblins would have better moral character then any real civilization in our own history.

It is your position that would have us treat goblins as unique. All other civilizations in Stickworld are not getting the threat analysis which you apply to Gobbotopia as justification for suppression of goblin civilization and continuation of divinely ordained discrimination. It is your position which needs further justification, not anyone else's.

[ebarde]

How is Darwinism like, at all relevant to the discussion of a fictional high fantasy setting that explicitedly was created as is instantly by gods?

[Samoja1]

Okay. Getting back to fantasy, then, we have a wide variety of fantasy races coexisting on Stickworld, many of which you would probably consider to be better or worse suited to the supposedly singular ecological niche. Why are goblins fundamentally different? Their short lifespans? The fact that they have had precisely one (1) major city in their entire history?

They are not, but other races are kept in check by their gods who don't want to step on each other's toes, and constant threat from evil factions. I am not saying goblins are more or less inclined then humans or elves or dwarves to conquer and enslave other races(they may be, but it's completely besides the point). I am saying they are in a much better position to act on that inclination. While i am not an expert on goblin biology results speak for themselves, despite being regularly targeted by other races and living on the least favotable land they are consistently able to produce armies that are large enough to threaten major powers of the world based on sheer numbers. If goblin population can replenish that quickly under those circumstances then they are better adapted. That is the exact same reasoning for why humans dominate or exterminate elves in many fantasy settings like TES or Witcher, they reproduce much faster and despite being individually inferior to elves as a species they are much better adapted. Humans live as long as we do because it takes us long time to reproduce, goblins can do so without serious handicap in fraction of the time it takes humans to do so.

[Dragonus45]

...yes? Gobbotopia needs a better leader? It doesn't have to resolve in...less than twenty pages into the book, at this moment, at the very table, when the world is at stake.

I'm simply not seeing the merits of Samoja1's points. Why is it not possible that the goblins could release the slaves and start utilizing the fertile land? That might even be a huge driving conflict in a book that's just getting started.

I would argue Gobotopia has a great leader, considering I think he was the one who initially pushed for a more peaceful stance with the other races and his speech when he took over it was clear he had plans to act diplomatically. What it also has is a Lawful Evil culture predisposed to expansionist conquest for numerous reasons and a very very large army to do so with. Also while we were never given exact numbers for how many people escaped or died versus being turned into slaves they have a massive free labor force and zero moral compunction about using them. Why on earth would they suddenly do a massive turnaround on that and decide to become peaceful farmers without being compelled too? Durkon's plan for sure would have required it, but that plan just got vetoed by someone who doesn't even live there anymore. Which would also have solved the whole "world at sake" problem as well. It's almost like it was the golden (enough) solution to start meaningful progress towards RC's goals of equality and solve the single biggest argument against allowing Gobotopia to exist (so many slaves) all in one fell stroke.


RC for all his work may be the biggest enemy of the goblin people in the end. Because RC doesn't want real progress, which can slow but meaningful and difficult. He wan't a silver bullet, loaded into a gun so big it will take out the entire universe if actually fired, to make it all happen at once. A plan with a pie in the sky victory that will never actually be possible even if it didn't mean the literal instant end of the world because what he want's can't happen overnight and would only actually put Gobotopia into a position of dominance that would literally guarantee it's current culture and populace safe expansion with a weapon too terrible to ever defy. Also, a plan that he is already way to deep into and has lost to much to abandon even when a real solution gets expanded.

You used species and races interchangeably in your post, despite them having very different meanings. The goblinoid cause is an allegory to real life racism.

Like many allegories, it often fails if you try to look to hard at making it a one to one thing. The hobgoblins we see are certainly real people deserving of life and a chance at happiness and change, but also are still portrayed as a deeply Evil militaristic culture bound to a super Evil god who gets automatic claim on their souls.

[Samoja1]

How is Darwinism like, at all relevant to the discussion of a fictional high fantasy setting that explicitedly was created as is instantly by gods?

Put a bunch of bacteria in a petry dish and darwinism applies, despite the fact that environment is completely artificial. Darwinism applies to any system with creatures capable of reproduction and finite resources, as i said it's just maths. If creature 1 is 5% better at reproduction then creature b then in second iteration there will be roughly 5% more of creature a then creature b, up until all alloted resources are consumed.