Class and Level Geekery XVI - These Characters May Now Drive the Plot

[Ephemera]

Straight away, the "While the champion might also have an interest in such worldly affairs as money, the champion's avatar form cares only for its divine mission." seems to virtually rule that out. Besides, the avatar would not be Durkon's "cousin's brother in law's niece's fiance", only the host would.

Given the giant’s general lack of interest in rules minutiae getting in the way of storytelling I don’t think this is really disqualifying. “Not interested in worldly affairs” by no means would imply an uninterest in defeating the evil undead who are threatening the existence of the whole world. The relations part is true, but I dunno, the avatar inhabits the host, and while it has its own mind, isn’t clearly a completely separate person—it seems like they probably share memories at least.

[Reboot]

Given the giant’s general lack of interest in rules minutiae getting in the way of storytelling I don’t think this is really disqualifying. “Not interested in worldly affairs” by no means would imply an uninterest in defeating the evil undead who are threatening the existence of the whole world.

Vs. Vampires wasn't what I was talking about - it was "nice to finally put a face to all the stories." The avatars are described as a bunch of Mikos.

The relations part is true, but I dunno, the avatar inhabits the host, and while it has its own mind, isn’t clearly a completely separate person—it seems like they probably share memories at least.

Well, considering the entire gimmick of the class is that, and I quote, "The champion and his avatar are ultimately separate people" - yeah, they're aware of what the other does and sees, but they're explicitly described as having separate opinions, ideas and priorities.

[Piggy Knowles]

They do share memories, despite being separate entitites.

Maybe Thad is the host and Durkin's cousin's brother-in-law's niece broke up with him for the avatar...

[Fyraltari]

I thought there would be a secret text...

Fyraltari: subverting expectations since Aug 2017

That was meant to show a pause.

Vs. Vampires wasn't what I was talking about - it was "nice to finally put a face to all the stories." The avatars are described as a bunch of Mikos.


Well, considering the entire gimmick of the class is that, and I quote, "The champion and his avatar are ultimately separate people" - yeah, they're aware of what the other does and sees, but they're explicitly described as having separate opinions, ideas and priorities.

Then again, in the little scene above the description they behave as if they are one and the same.

[D.One]

Then again, in the little scene above the description they behave as if they are one and the same.

To the point Sir Thiritan scolds the avatar and he behaves as humbly as you would expect from the squire (the alter-ego).

[Gluteus_Maximus]

If I'm not mistaken, going through the Roy vs Thog fight in the arena and taking into account that a Barbarian's rage lasts for 3 rounds plus their con mod +2 (due to the rage's bonus of +4 to con), Thog's base CON is a 26+.

The first round of Thog's rage ends when Roy runs away to grab the sword. The second has Roy punching Thog. Then Roy says "I surrender" in the third. Roy stabs Thog in the leg in the fourth, Roy drinks a potion in the fifth, and breaks it in Thog's face in the sixth. In the seventh, Roy runs away, and in the eighth he readies an action to collide the two rocks and grapple with Thog (all the grappling stuff can be randomly failed saves on Thog's part, so that can be counted as 1 round). In the Roy's ninth turn of Thog's rage, he throws sand in his face. In the tenth he spends his actions warning the crowd, and in the 11th, 12th, and 13th he has Thog dungeoncrash the three pillars. At this point, the rage ends, whether because he didn't attack Roy that round or because it just ended up wearing off. So that's 13 rounds, 3 base + 10 con mod for a modified 30 con, subtracting the 4 bonus from rage gets 26+.

[Wizard_Lizard]

If I'm not mistaken, going through the Roy vs Thog fight in the arena and taking into account that a Barbarian's rage lasts for 3 rounds plus their con mod +2 (due to the rage's bonus of +4 to con), Thog's base CON is a 26+.

The first round of Thog's rage ends when Roy runs away to grab the sword. The second has Roy punching Thog. Then Roy says "I surrender" in the third. Roy stabs Thog in the leg in the fourth, Roy drinks a potion in the fifth, and breaks it in Thog's face in the sixth. In the seventh, Roy runs away, and in the eighth he readies an action to collide the two rocks and grapple with Thog (all the grappling stuff can be randomly failed saves on Thog's part, so that can be counted as 1 round). In the Roy's ninth turn of Thog's rage, he throws sand in his face. In the tenth he spends his actions warning the crowd, and in the 11th, 12th, and 13th he has Thog dungeoncrash the three pillars. At this point, the rage ends, whether because he didn't attack Roy that round or because it just ended up wearing off. So that's 13 rounds, 3 base + 10 con mod for a modified 30 con, subtracting the 4 bonus from rage gets 26+.

that is OP.

[danielxcutter]

If I'm not mistaken, going through the Roy vs Thog fight in the arena and taking into account that a Barbarian's rage lasts for 3 rounds plus their con mod +2 (due to the rage's bonus of +4 to con), Thog's base CON is a 26+.

The first round of Thog's rage ends when Roy runs away to grab the sword. The second has Roy punching Thog. Then Roy says "I surrender" in the third. Roy stabs Thog in the leg in the fourth, Roy drinks a potion in the fifth, and breaks it in Thog's face in the sixth. In the seventh, Roy runs away, and in the eighth he readies an action to collide the two rocks and grapple with Thog (all the grappling stuff can be randomly failed saves on Thog's part, so that can be counted as 1 round). In the Roy's ninth turn of Thog's rage, he throws sand in his face. In the tenth he spends his actions warning the crowd, and in the 11th, 12th, and 13th he has Thog dungeoncrash the three pillars. At this point, the rage ends, whether because he didn't attack Roy that round or because it just ended up wearing off. So that's 13 rounds, 3 base + 10 con mod for a modified 30 con, subtracting the 4 bonus from rage gets 26+.

Extend Rage is a thing.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Extend Rage is a thing.

Okay, so then his CON can be 16-26 (Number of rounds per rage, could have Extend Rage)

[Quartz]

If I'm not mistaken, going through the Roy vs Thog fight in the arena and taking into account that a Barbarian's rage lasts for 3 rounds plus their con mod +2 (due to the rage's bonus of +4 to con), Thog's base CON is a 26+.

Thog wouldn't have any magic items in the arena. Even if we give him a 18 Con at level 1 he'd only get +4 from level boosts which would make 22. But at level 11 the Barbarian gets Greater Rage, which boosts Con by 6, for 3 rounds of extra rage. 22+6 = 28. That's close enough to your 30.

And Thog has fewer than 17 Barbarian levels else he'd have Tireless Rage and not get exhausted.

[MultitudeMan]

OK, so does that mean Thog either has Extend Rage as a feat, or increased his Con using something like a Manual of Bodily Health?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

In the book, in one of the bonus pages another round is passed showing Thog throwing a guard at Roy and Roy shouting at Tarquin to get his men out of the way. If he is a 11+ Barbarian, this would put his base CON at 16+ with extend rage or 26+ making use of level boosts and +4 worth of manuals.

[understatement]

Is it possible to have a ~1-2 level narrowing down on Xykon? Here Haley mentions she got a Sending from Lien, which means the Cloister Effect on her is gone. Between the fall of Azure City and current day, the XP Xykon's been getting is mainly from the Darth V fight and Kraagor's Tomb, which could warrant about 1-2 levels boost.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Is it possible to have a ~1-2 level narrowing down on Xykon? Here Haley mentions she got a Sending from Lien, which means the Cloister Effect on her is gone. Between the fall of Azure City and current day, the XP Xykon's been getting is mainly from the Darth V fight and Kraagor's Tomb, which could warrant about 1-2 levels boost.

More than a year passed between the fall of Azure City and the sending to Haley (as said in RC's speech), and Haley left at 16 weeks in. Even if Xykon was recasting it every few weeks it would end at roughly the 33rd week, nowhere near the 52 needed for a full year to go and have Haley run out just recently before the sending, unless you're insinuating Xykon is 37th level. The low-ball we have is due to Durkon's Greater Dispel Magic overcoming Xykon's Greater Invisibility. Not to mention she got sendings before, like in the pyramid.

In other news, Durkon's Concentration skill ranks are outdated- While the math still checks out, at the time Roy's strength was not confirmed to be 29, instead 24. So a re-do on the math...

Minimum damage of 7 from the +5 greatsword. Then you add his STR, which at 29 would be a +9 mod, *1.5 for a two-handed weapon, adds 13.5 to the 7, giving you 20.5. This rounds down to 20. Subtracting Greg's DR puts that at 10 damage. Going through the formula for figuring out the Concentration save DC it's 10 + damage + spell level, so a DC of 26. If Greg rolled a 20, that's a +6 modifier. Going through the logic that Greg's max CHA mod is +1, this means that Durkon has 5 ranks in Concentration, not 2.

[understatement]

Okay, so I checked with the wiki -- apparently there's a 176-day gap between comics 532 and 533, which I completely did not factor into.

Also, RC says it's six weeks until the anniversary -- and unless six weeks passed from his announcement to Haley receiving her first sending in the pyramid, it hasn't been a year since Azure City fell.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Of course not. If that had happened, we'd be past the end of the year and Belkar would be dead.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Of course not. If that had happened, we'd be past the end of the year and Belkar would be dead.

A year had passed before they had even reached the Oracle.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Okay, so I checked with the wiki -- apparently there's a 176-day gap between comics 532 and 533, which I completely did not factor into.

Also, RC says it's six weeks until the anniversary -- and unless six weeks passed from his announcement to Haley receiving her first sending in the pyramid, it hasn't been a year since Azure City fell.

And even if it's been 6 weeks less than a year since, that's 46 weeks, and you'd be claiming Xykon is level 31. Which, while slightly more reasonable, doesn't prove anything about Xykon's level. It could have worn off long before then.

[Quartz]

OK, so does that mean Thog either has Extend Rage as a feat, or increased his Con using something like a Manual of Bodily Health?

Can Thog read?

[D.One]

Can Thog read?

Per the 3.5 rules, yes. He became literate when he took those two levels of Fighter.

[Fyraltari]

Thog wrote the foreword to GDGU.

[D.One]

Thog wrote the foreword to GDGU.

Thog can write "foreword"!?!

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, I'm surprised he would be able to read in the first place.

[Reboot]

Okay, so I checked with the wiki -- apparently there's a 176-day gap between comics 532 and 533, which I completely did not factor into.

Uhh... I presume those numbers are wrong?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html

[Wizard_Lizard]

don't you need an INT scoore of 3+ to understand language?

[Riftwolf]

don't you need an INT scoore of 3+ to understand language?

Less than 3 means you can't speak a language but you could understand commands (like animal training). I think there was a rule in 3.5 about Int <7 leading to thoglike speech? Or it mightve been Neverwinter.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Less than 3 means you can't speak a language but you could understand commands (like animal training). I think there was a rule in 3.5 about Int <7 leading to thoglike speech? Or it mightve been Neverwinter.

so that means everyone in oots (barring thog) has INT 7+ while thog has INT <7

[Jasdoif]

Minimum damage of 7 from the +5 greatsword. Then you add his STR, which at 29 would be a +9 mod, *1.5 for a two-handed weapon, adds 13.5 to the 7, giving you 20.5. This rounds down to 20. Subtracting Greg's DR puts that at 10 damage. Going through the formula for figuring out the Concentration save DC it's 10 + damage + spell level, so a DC of 26. If Greg rolled a 20, that's a +6 modifier. Going through the logic that Greg's max CHA mod is +1, this means that Durkon has 5 ranks in Concentration, not 2.

Weapon specialization (which I had forgotten about in the currently cited post for HPoH's concentration; the later correction seems to have been missed) means another +2 damage...so 7 ranks (barring other modifiers to the check).

[D.One]

so that means everyone in oots (barring thog) has INT 7+ while thog has INT <7

I remember no such rule in 3.5. AD&D 2nd edition's rules about language is related to INT, but it only said that a INT 3-4 character could speak with difficulty and that a INT 5-7 character was dull-witted or slow.

[understatement]

Uhh... I presume those numbers are wrong?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html

Possibly; that's why I thought Xykon's level could be narrowed down further for an upper cap.