[4e] Holy Crap!

[Crow]

Has anyone looked at the Cleric Daily called "Seal of Binding"? Maybe this is old news, but WOW.

If you use the Demi-God power that gives you regeneration, you're going to kill anything you can hit and only need 1 attack roll.

[CockroachTeaParty]

That looks like a nasty combo, but it would certainly be pretty boring for everyone else in the party, not to mention the DM. Still, you could only do that once a day, and it's not guaranteed.

[mikeejimbo]

Yeah, it's been mentioned. But thanks for reminding me. I'm playing a Cleric.

[Titanium Dragon]

Yeah, its been mentioned. Its really overpowered. It should probably not work as written; it is way too good. Even slapping a "no regaining hit points" clause on its sustain probably leaves it as too powerful an ability.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah, its been mentioned. Its really overpowered. It should probably not work as written; it is way too good. Even slapping a "no regaining hit points" clause on its sustain probably leaves it as too powerful an ability.

Too good? It works once per day and requires you to be in the high Epics already. I'm willing to let it slide for someone who is actively working on becoming a god

[mikeejimbo]

The only real problem is if you use it against a monster that the DM planned on being an epic battle, just between him and your party.

That's a Solo monster, right? I don't know much about DMing 4e, just bashing stuff with hammers.

[Colmarr]

I forget the exact details of the power, but I recall hearing about 1-shotting Orcus with it. That might be an exaggeration, but it always struck me that the obvious answer from a DM perspective is:

1. Push/pull/slide the cleric out of range (which automatically ends the power) or

2. Make the cleric so busy that he can't spend the action to maintain it.

It's an amazing power against Solos, but not even all solos are encountered alone.

[mikeejimbo]

You can't One-Shot anything with it, because you have to maintain it for several rounds. :P

But I kid. Whoever killed Orcus with it must have rolled a natural 20, though.

[Colmarr]

You can't One-Shot anything with it, because you have to maintain it for several rounds. :P

Ahh, but I was using "one-shot" in the sense of "I don't need any help and I'll only use this one power".

I am thinking of the right power, aren't I? The one with no save that prevents the target from taking actions?

[mikeejimbo]

Yep, that is the one. But it's still extremely unlikely you would hit.

[Frost]

It would actually be an incredibly crappy power if it had a no regaining hit points clause, because you have less HP then any monster you will ever face after getting the power that isn't a minion.

Yep, that is the one. But it's still extremely unlikely you would hit.

Um? So if no one can ever hit Orcus, then isn't he immortal, of wait, you can hit Orcus really easily. He never said he was a level 1 Cleric, or the minimum level with the power, he could be talking about level 30.

[Drager]

You can't kill Orcus with this before hitting the maximum duration of the power. The maths doesn't add up :). Still you can seriously weaken him.

[mikeejimbo]

Um? So if no one can ever hit Orcus, then isn't he immortal, of wait, you can hit Orcus really easily. He never said he was a level 1 Cleric, or the minimum level with the power, he could be talking about level 30.

Even at level 30, though, I don't see how you could do it.

Assuming you put an 18 into Wisdom at level 1 and increasing it at every opportunity, you'll have a 28 by the end. That's a +9.

The attack has the implement keyword, so if you use the best Holy Symbol you can get, that's another +6. We're up to 15.

Now add half your level. Let's assume it's at level 30. That's another +15, so we have a +30 to hit. That's decent!

But Orcus has a Will defense of 49. Barring more buffs, you'd still need a 19 or 20 (10% chance) to hit.

[The Mormegil]

Hmmm... The demigod's regeneration is (if I don't recall it wrong) based on your highest ability score, right? That means that, since if your highest ability score is Wisdom it simply nullifies part of the damage (also based on Wis) and let you take 2d10 damages per round, to nullify it completely you would need an ability score that has a modifier 20 points higher that your Wis modifier. How is that possile? And even if it was, how could you hit anything with that Wis score? And that's not talking about monsters with regeneration... Even then, it's a good power on solos since, if you hit, you soften him up a lot using your other healing powers (minor actions) to heal yourself. It could actually work well even on Orcus, you know, if you can hit him (not impossible, I'm sure there were other ways to improve one's hit...).
Not an awfully broken power, anyway. Cascade of Blades is worse, for what I'm concerned.

[mikeejimbo]

Hmmm... The demigod's regeneration is (if I don't recall it wrong) based on your highest ability score, right?

The regeneration is equal to your highest ability score not modifier. With a 28 Wis, you're healing 28 damage per round, and taking a maximum of 29. (Average 20)

[Trog]

Did anyone else prior to opening this thread think: "Poop Golem that deals Radiant damage"

[Charity]

Nah I thought he'd been eating too much swiss cheese.

This Cleric ability is good for Solo monsters, I'm not sure it is broken, and it does take a while to work, but it is dull as heck for everyone else so it is to be avoided as far as I'm concerned.

Orcus is soooo nasty I'd be suprised if he could be defeated without major recorse to beardy Stilton anyhow. His defences are very high making his effective HP's astronomical.

[Tengu]

Did someone say cheese?

Blade Cascade - stupidly overpowered.

[Charity]

Yes and there is also the infinate reroll cheese with the demigod epic destiny capstone power along with the elven accuracy.
(use up all your encounter powers except Elven accuracy, then use it to re-roll any miss on blade cascade, then it refreshes, then do it again etc.)

but it's we are discussing.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Did someone say cheese?

Blade Cascade - stupidly overpowered.

Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.

Spoiler

Show

Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.

Spoiler

Show

+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcus’s next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK

[Gralamin]

Then again, Orcus has the Leader role, meaning your not supposed to fight him alone. So while your doing this, his minions/allies will be trying to maul you.

[MammonAzrael]

Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.

Spoiler

Show

Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.

Spoiler

Show

+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcus’s next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK

No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And it's Ranged 10, so you aren't automatically nailed by a Touch of Death or Tail Lash.

EDIT: Oh, and on the OP, yeah, the ability is crazy awesome against Solos, but only ok against the vast majority of what you'll fight. While it could use a bit of toning down (only if you go Demi-God though), I think DMs that actually have players that wind up with this will be able to manage alright (like adding enough minions or terrain features or whatever to ensure the lockdown doesn't happen for more than a few rounds at the most.)

[Tengu]

Hey, wait, someone here knows statistics. Run the maths here and see what the probability of one-shotting Orcus is with this build. Since it seems like you need to hit 55 times in a row to do that, I'm pretty sure that the probability is low.

Plus, if you fail to one-shot him, you get to have a Touch of Death to the face.

Spoiler

Show

Touch of Death (standard; recharge) ✦ Necrotic
Reach 4; +33 vs. Fortitude; the target is reduced to 0 hit points (resistance or immunity to necrotic damage does not apply).
Miss:The target takes necrotic damage equal to its bloodied value.

Plus, getting next to him results in a Tail Lash to the face.

Spoiler

Show

+36 vs. AC; 2d8 + 12 damage, and the target is stunned until the end of Orcus’s next turn and is knocked prone.

So yeah, I think Orcus is going to be OK

Someone in the previous thread where this build was mentioned already addressed both of these points. Feel free to look it up - I am not going myself, though, since roughly 60% of this thread is anti-4e folks flaming. Just as it was with most of the early 4e threads.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And it's Ranged 10, so you aren't automatically nailed by a Touch of Death or Tail Lash.

I was talking about the Orcusslayer which relies upon Blade Cascade and Imperiling Strike to kill Orcus. What are you talking about?

[MammonAzrael]

I was talking about the Orcusslayer which relies upon Blade Cascade and Imperiling Strike to kill Orcus. What are you talking about?

I thought you were referring to killing Orcus with the Seal of Binding. Oops.

But since you're referring to Blade Cascade, while it's true, it's also be pretty thoroughly gone over and polished, and the chances of it really failing are surprisingly low.

[Helgraf]

No, you still only need one attack roll, because the rest of the damage is simply sustaining the power, after it hit. So all you really need is to insure that it'll hit and you're done. Plague of Doom and Nimbus of Doom are both Cleric powers that can help lower Orcus' Will Defense, Divine Oracle Lets you roll twice, and that just in-class help. You can further help by going Elf, and your allies can help lower the defense/increase your to-hit as well.

And, oh yeah, not getting killed by Orcus or Orcus' allies in all those rounds you're sustaining it - because they're not going to divert any attention to you, right?

[Oslecamo]

And, oh yeah, not getting killed by Orcus or Orcus' allies in all those rounds you're sustaining it - because they're not going to divert any attention to you, right?

Since Orcus is forced to don't have allies(solo) and it's godlike powers have been crippled to be unable to one shot players, and the cleric has plenty of healing and defensive powers, I say surviving those turns isn't that hard.

[RukiTanuki]

This reminds me of the Super Metroid Boss "Draygon", who could be defeated by letting him grab Samus, then grappling onto an exposed electrical outlet, electrocuting both of you. At that stage in the game, you were likely to have enough energy tanks to outlast him (though my first time ever, I did end up running on the fumes of my reserve tanks...)

A bit more on topic: It looks like this is a good reason for epic solo opponents to never fight alone, lest they fall prey to The Zero Sacrifice. (Sorry, video games on the mind today.)

[Starsinger]

Since Orcus is forced to don't have allies(solo) and it's godlike powers have been crippled to be unable to one shot players, and the cleric has plenty of healing and defensive powers, I say surviving those turns isn't that hard.

To quote the monster manual "Orcus is one of the most powerful creatures that adventurers can ever hope to defeat. Unfortunately for them, he is rarely encountered alone." Then, on the encounters listing, the standard/recommend Orcus encounter is "1 Orcus (Level 33 solo brute). 2 Atropals (level 28 elite brute). 8 Lich Vestiges (level 26 minion)." So if you fight Orcus by himself, that's the DM's fault.

[Tengu]

At least Atropals aren't creepy, floating undead fetuses anymore. If they were, they'd steal the spotlight from Orcus in this encounter by being much more disturbing than him.