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Thread: "Evil" Magic Items?
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2011-12-04, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2004
"Evil" Magic Items?
Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.
Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.Credit goes to Sakura Akaega for the Darker than Black avatar.
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2011-12-04, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
If they are made by sacrificing the souls of angels to the demons of the underworld and drinking the blood of newborn babies, i think that constitutes as evil.
The item itself may not be evil, but the process that went into making it was, so that counts.Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2011-12-04, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Because it was probably made with a ritual where the acts involved WOULD make the ritual-er have an evil alignment (if they didn't already)? If I gave you a XBox 720, but I got it by slaughtering a million puppies, would you go "oh sure, thanks!" or be totally disgusted by the fact I just killed a million cute, fluffy puppies?
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2011-12-04, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Right, just like vegetarians and meat. I'm sure that if there were a way of obtaining it without death being involved, they'd have no problem.
So it's a lot like Tarquin offering a vegetarian a turkey sandwich and them denying it, opting for tofurkey instead. Tastes the same, but one was made without killing someone
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2011-12-04, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
He's referencing this strip, as in an item created through evil means. Not to mention taking an item that was gained through an evil act. Not that the item itself has an alignment.
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2011-12-04, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Check the eleventh panel, and Tarquin's implicit concession that yes, that actually is how he made the Ring of Regeneration he's offering.
For that matter, check how he actually got the carpet he's giving Elan.
Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2011-12-04, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Holy and Unholy Water(Or heck, Holy and Unholy weapon enhancements) are obviously Good or Evil, but they're not intelligent. Skeletons and zombie are evil, but not intelligent. Something doesn't need to be intelligent to have an alignment.
It's not unreasonable, then, to have a Ring of Regeneration be Evil if it was created through Evil means. The act of regenerating may not be evil, but the method of creating it was.
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2011-12-04, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
The above is all true. Accepting an item that was created by an evil ritual or torture or created by an evil person makes you at least somewhat tolerant of there evil ways.
The million puppy question was very enlightening
Oh mutant sheep do I have to pay shipping on that X-box?
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2011-12-04, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
I think Elan is referring more to the method of making rather than the alignment of the item (or the associated energy type of the item), though we do know that items in the OotS can acquire alignment based properties through Xykon's crown.
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2011-12-04, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
THat's also not to say if the ring of regeneration was possibly intelligent, any magic item could theoretically have intelligence if it's maker so desired. While we can't confirm or deny it there is every possibility that the particular ring of regeneration Tarquin offered Elan was sentient, and evilly alighned. Again can't confirm or deny if the ring was unintelligent so we'll probably never know.
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2011-12-04, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
We don't know that for sure. That's just Durkon's assumption. And while Xykon did say it was a completely non magical item, there's still the fact that he bothered to steal just that out of a magical museum, and Rich made a point of having him take it back from Roy.
So far, I'm thinking it's not just a crown, despite Xykon's statements. The evil aura makes it even more likely.
But still, the strip was referring to the method used to make the item, NOT it's alignment or any sort of aura.
As Elan states in the strip, he very definitely was not referring to some possible intelligence, simply the method (torturing someone to death) used to create it.Last edited by NerfTW; 2011-12-04 at 10:34 PM.
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2011-12-05, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
It's an ethical question.
But discussing that comes down to "Is it morally justified to take and use a magic ring for good that was made with evil means and selfish motivations?" and those discussions are forbidden.
To cut it short and do without that discussion: Elan (whatever the reasons!) thinks it's plainly wrong to use such an item and as thus refuses it.
You could say that his refusal of the ring was actually the refusal of his father's ways (and if the first says something symbolic about the latter is something we could actually discuss). I think it is, so it's not actually as much about the thing itself but more about the concepts behind its creator.
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2011-12-05, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Transference. We often attribute qualities to inanimate objects based on their origins and usages, for example people will oo and ahh over George Washingtons sword or express sadness in places where great tragedies took place. In our world this is a psychological process, in D&D its often a very real phenomenon.
How would you feel about using a computer powered by the heart of a forsaken child? Sure you can tear up the battlegrounds with it but it screams when you overclock it..
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2011-12-05, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- England. Ish.
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
If I remember the rules correctly, an item in the possession of a strongly evil character for a long period of time will develop an evil aura. This is what happened with the crown.
Now, as to any powers, Roy assumed it has some sort of powers since Xykon went to the trouble of stealing it. However, Xykon doesn't think so. He just stole it because ot "looked Badass".Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
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2011-12-05, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Really?
I know we can't bring real-life historical examples or religious beliefs into it but we can still debate ethics and morality (at least insofar as it pertains to the characters in the strip). Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?
Is 3.5 a fried-egg, chili-chutney sandwich?
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2011-12-05, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.
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2011-12-05, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Also, in the Book of Vile Darkness, there are rules for crafting magical items and bypassing exp and gold costs by using the souls of sacrificial victims which are irrevocably annihilated by the process.
It's about as evil as you can get in D&D. Not just killing a person, but annihilating their immortal soul, preventing both ressurection and the rightful afterlife. The items created radiate evil for a reason.
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2011-12-05, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Many people believe that if you buy a product that was researched using animal cruelty, you support animal cruelty. Thats elans belief, he want to be good, like Roy and Haley, but he wants to be good in the "right" way.... a personality trait he shares with another character in the strip (although that one wants to be "evil")
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2011-12-05, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Germany
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Does it really matter if the ring (or any other item) has a D&D alignment? Not every aspect of the world can be expressed in game terms. What counts is that Tarquin obtained his item(s) by making people suffer, and Elan wants no part in that.
Seems pretty logical and exactly what a well played Good character would do (arguing that the rules don't say the item is evil so it's okay to use it is something the paladin from Durkon's previous party in OotPCs would do, and we know how the Giant thinks about that).
For Haley, I don't know. She's greedy, and also pretty pragmatic. Also, only "good-ish".Last edited by Valyrian; 2011-12-05 at 10:56 AM.
"I'm particularly fond of our priesthood of the Benefactor, since our main duties seem to be sitting around and pretending that the Benefactor doesn't exist. When we're not stealing things, that is."
Locke Lamora, The Gentleman Bastard Sequence
The pun is mightier than the sword!
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2011-12-05, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Because his conscience outweighs his pragmatism. Really, it's Elan, of course his conscience outweighs his pragmatism! Everything outweighs his pragmatism, including his puppet!Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2011-12-05, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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2011-12-05, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
As I got it, anything that goes beyond D&D's alignment system is a question of morals and as such forbidden. Therefore, discussing if Belkar was evil is ok, discussing if that is ok in general is not as soon as you go beyond what the characters of the comic think.
Ask a mod for further clarification if you think you need it, I really do not want one jumping from the shadows calling this "Vigilante Moderating" or whatever.
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2011-12-05, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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2011-12-05, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
Some items have an alignment despite not having sentience:
Nine Lives Stealer
This longsword always performs as a +2 longsword, but it also has the power to draw the life force from an opponent. It can do this nine times before the ability is lost. At that point, the sword becomes a simple +2 longsword (with a hint of evil about it). A critical hit must be dealt for the sword’s death-dealing ability to function, and this weapon has no effect on creatures not subject to critical hits. The victim is entitled to a DC 20 Fortitude save to avoid death. If the save is successful, the sword’s death-dealing ability does not function, no use of the ability is expended, and normal critical damage is determined. This sword is evil, and any good character attempting to wield it gains two negative levels. These negative levels remain as long as the sword is in hand and disappear when the sword is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss, but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the sword is wielded.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2011-12-06, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2004
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2011-12-06, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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2011-12-06, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
in 2nd ed, both Chaotic acts, and Evil acts, made you fall.
But, only Evil acts made you fall permanently- it was possible to atone for Chaotic ones.
So- they were not quite equal.
In 3.0-3.5 ed, Chaotic acts aren't specified as causing a Fall- though "gross violations of the paladin's code" as well as Evil acts, are- as is changing alignment.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2011-12-06, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
And, in 2ed, a paladin could associate freely with Chaotic characters, but not with Evil ones--just like in 3.xed.
Good takes precedence over Law for paladins. Has since 2ed at the latest.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2011-12-06, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
The item itself doesn't need to have an alignment if it was acquired or created under horrifying circumstances.
Consider, if someone was willing to give you a free car -- but they revealed, at the same time, that they had gained it by torturing the previous owner grotesquely over the course of three days and finally running them over with the vehicle. You probably wouldn't be quite as willing to accept it as you would, say, a car that you won in a raffle. The car itself isn't evil, but it sure comes with a monolithic weight of guilt attached to it.Spoiler
So the song runs on, with shift and change,
Through the years that have no name,
And the late notes soar to a higher range,
But the theme is still the same.
Man's battle-cry and the guns' reply
Blend in with the old, old rhyme
That was traced in the score of the strata marks
While millenniums winked like campfire sparks
Down the winds of unguessed time. -- 4th Stanza, The Bad Lands, Badger Clark
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2011-12-06, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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Re: "Evil" Magic Items?
The best model for an intrinsically-aligned item that I can think of is the cursed item rules, and specifically the minor drawbacks that don't impede the item functioning, just... flavor it.
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