[3.5]Tenebrous Apostate Question

[mabriss lethe]

I was just reading through the Tenebrous Apostate PrC in Tome of Magic. Something struck me as a bit off.

Eternal bondage. I'm not certain exactly what it should be doing. Does it grant you another bound vestige slot that's permanently set aside for Tenebrous or does it simply take one of your existing vestige slots and permanently dedicate it to the Big T?

If it's the former, that's actually pretty good. Tenebrous isn't a half-bad vestige. If it's the latter...that's sort of cruddy, since one of the hallmarks of the binder is the ability to shift your focus based on the vestiges you pick, and permanently anchoring one of those vestige slots goes a long way toward crippling the class.

(however, potentially infinite divine feat usage is pretty nifty. Yes, it specifically states that T's Turn/rebuke power is usable with divine feats. and that could go a long way to making the PrC all better in the end.)

[Draken]

The wording indicates that you gain an extra vestige slot to bind.

And yea. Tenebrous gives you infine Rebuke attempts. Only one every five rounds, however, limits a bit what you can Divine Feat with.

Namely, limits your uses of DMM somewhat. Just a bit, however, not much.

[mabriss lethe]

Thanks. I'd sort of hoped that was what they meant, but with PrCs and slightly obfusicated wording, you can never be too certain. As for the Joys of DMM Persist/ other divine feats, if you already have access to turn/rebuke from another source (say from a level or two of cleric before entering the PrC.) Tenebrous lets you mitigate that already "discounted" cost for DMM significantly. Looks like you could use a TA for a pretty viscious character.

[Chronos]

The wording indicates that you gain an extra vestige slot to bind.

It looks to me like the opposite, what with specifically saying that you can't bind any other vestige in place of Tenebrous. If it were just a free extra binding, that wouldn't really be relevant.

[hamlet]

I would just like to point out a stupid little thing: the phrase "The Big T" is generally used to refer to Tharizdun, not Tenebrous.

Thank you, that is all.

[Kyeudo]

I would just like to point out a stupid little thing: the phrase "The Big T" is generally used to refer to Tharizdun, not Tenebrous.

Thank you, that is all.

I thought Big T was the Tarasque.

[hamlet]

I thought Big T was the Tarasque.

Nope. Always been Tharizdun in my experience.

[Sinfire Titan]

The wording indicates that you gain an extra vestige slot to bind.

And yea. Tenebrous gives you infine Rebuke attempts. Only one every five rounds, however, limits a bit what you can Divine Feat with.

Namely, limits your uses of DMM somewhat. Just a bit, however, not much.

Well, it does allow you to spam Extra Turning on your feats list.

[Chronos]

I've always seen "Big T" as the Tarrasque, in a D&D context at least. Who's Tharizdun?

A Google search confirms: The phrase "Big T" shows up 56 times on this board, but "Big T" -tarrasque only returns 29, most of which seem to be referring to the capital letter. "big T" tharizdun only returns a single hit.

[Stupendous_Man]

kinkiness.

[hamlet]

I've always seen "Big T" as the Tarrasque, in a D&D context at least. Who's Tharizdun?

A Google search confirms: The phrase "Big T" shows up 56 times on this board, but "Big T" -tarrasque only returns 29, most of which seem to be referring to the capital letter. "big T" tharizdun only returns a single hit.

"Who's Tharizdun"?

I'm sorry, you must now turn in your D&D books and report to an extermination chamber.

Wiki-Tharizdun

22 Questions and Answers about Tharizdun

I'm sorry, that's just . . . wrong.

[MisterSaturnine]

Maybe we could just have them all face back to back, measure them, and then from there decide who's Big T, who's Little T, and who's Shorter-Than-Big-T-And-Yet-Not-Quite-So-Small-As-Little-T.

I don't have the firmest grasp of the rules (I understand them, I just don't know some of them by heart. Like grappling...) but I just picked up the Tome of Magic, and...

I have no idea whether or not it means you get Tenebrous as an extra vestige, or taking up one of the slots. I'm leaning towards him taking up an existing slot, mostly because the wording makes me want to think so, and also because you advance Cleric casting which increases your versatility somewhat [I]anyway[/]. Not a lot, persay, because there's only 5 levels of the class and you need a minimum 5 levels of binder (with the Improved Binding feat) just to qualify, which means you miss out on 9th level spells. And possibly 8th. But you do get some nice stuff to add to the mix.

[Starbuck_II]

"Who's Tharizdun"?

I'm sorry, you must now turn in your D&D books and report to an extermination chamber.

Wiki-Tharizdun

22 Questions and Answers about Tharizdun

I'm sorry, that's just . . . wrong.

He is not well know because he is high level.
He is in 4th edition as a god but I never heard much about him much except in 2nd. Never in 3rd.

[hamlet]

He is not well know because he is high level.
He is in 4th edition as a god but I never heard much about him much except in 2nd. Never in 3rd.

This utterly depresses me, especially since Tharizdun has been part of the D&D mythos since . . . ever.

It hurts me, deep down at the bottom of my heart. Or maybe the heart of my bottom, whichever.

I see that 4th edition has pretty much raped Tharizdun, so I'll just go now and weep quietly in the corner.

[Thurbane]

Nope. Always been Tharizdun in my experience.

I'm afraid you're both wrong!

[Thurbane]

He is not well know because he is high level.
He is in 4th edition as a god but I never heard much about him much except in 2nd. Never in 3rd.

Tharizdun got some (admittedly very small) coverage in 3E, most notably in Lords of Madness...

[namo]

I've always taken it to mean that Tenebrous always occupies one of your slots - it would be considerably more powerful otherwise.

On this board, indeed, Big T = Tarrasque.

Isn't Tharizdun Greyhawk-ian ? That would explain why many people haven't heard about him. I know him from the Temple of Elemental Evil but that's about it.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I figure it's Tenebrous gets an extra slot... Wording it so you can't bind another vestige in the slot is like saying a Conjuror can't fill his extra spell slot with anything but conjurations...

[MisterSaturnine]

I'm afraid you're both wrong!

OK, that settles it. We all know who the real Big T is now. And I pity the fool who disagrees.